Why? --> Table Minimums
Quote: GHSo, in your opinion, I don't gain anything by playing a $50 table; when I can still play $50 at the $10 table, and have a backup level to fall to?
You probably don't, no. MAYBE, you'd be rated higher at the $50 table (certainly no lower than $50/hand).
But the house gains a lot. If they can get the $50 players to actually play on the $50 table, it frees up more room at the lower tables for people who won't bet that much per hand.
Quote: GHSo, in your opinion, I don't gain anything by playing a $50 table; when I can still play $50 at the $10 table, and have a backup level to fall to?
Assuming that the rules are the same. In many casinos, the rules are better for the player at the higher limit tables. Often, this is a significant difference.
They want people with money,
they're not interested in small time losers,
they want big time losers
Quote: WongBoIt is absolutely quality control.
They want people with money,
they're not interested in small time losers,
they want big time losers
That sounds more like "volume control" than quality control.
IMHO, the El Cortez does quite well, culling small time losers.
Quote: GHSo, in your opinion, I don't gain anything by playing a $50 table; when I can still play $50 at the $10 table, and have a backup level to fall to?
I think it depends on what you value and what rules the places you go to have in place, you haven't told us so it's hard to say. Where I work if you're playing at $50 a hand you're going to have the "no mid shoe entry" rule, which may or may not be valuable to you. it also tends to separate the serious players from the ploppies, so if you like a game where other players are more likely to play closer to basic strategy then that's an advantage. Also, we don't have any $50 tables that have sidebets. If you like your blackjack pure and not reduced to a carnival game experience* then there's value there as well.
* This is an opinion I've heard many times in our High Limit room. Personally, I'm entertained by all the nickels flying back and forth between players and I think it's fun to make a big payout when a sidebet wins.
Quote: GHIf "the cards don't care what color your chips are," what is the real purpose of having table minimums? It can't be for player quality control, because from what I keep reading, the actions of other players "in the loooooong run" don't matter. Or is there something I'm missing?
Player quality control matters to the other players. Have you ever been in the low-limit pits, and walked by some table with an absurd minimum, like $500, which was normally $10? Someone requested that. The cards may not care what colors your chips are, but no players, no chips.
Also, there's a finite amount of space, and low-limit players are likely to crowd out the more lucrative ones. A single $100 player is making them more money than a table of $15 ones. Plus, someone otherwise intending to play a $10 game, only finding a $15 or $25 table, might well sit down and play, and that makes them more money.
Quote: GHIf "the cards don't care what color your chips are," what is the real purpose of having table minimums? It can't be for player quality control, because from what I keep reading, the actions of other players "in the loooooong run" don't matter. Or is there something I'm missing?
Lots of reasons, from having the strongest dealers available for the highest dollar amount to sublty managing your bet sizes. Table minimums are a science to themselves.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyI think it depends on what you value and what rules the places you go to have in place, you haven't told us so it's hard to say. Where I work if you're playing at $50 a hand you're going to have the "no mid shoe entry" rule, which may or may not be valuable to you. it also tends to separate the serious players from the ploppies, so if you like a game where other players are more likely to play closer to basic strategy then that's an advantage. Also, we don't have any $50 tables that have sidebets. If you like your blackjack pure and not reduced to a carnival game experience* then there's value there as well.
* This is an opinion I've heard many times in our High Limit room. Personally, I'm entertained by all the nickels flying back and forth between players and I think it's fun to make a big payout when a sidebet wins.
So, when all is said and done; it's really to cater to those players who want "less drama" in their game.
Quote: GHSo, when all is said and done; it's really to cater to those players who want "less drama" in their game.
I think a more accurate way to put it is: to make more money. If the house can make more money by accommodating a player's wishes they will probably do so. I think that perhaps you're just looking at the situation the wrong way, you seem to be under the impression that the house is trying to do the players some sort of unrequited favor. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you want those things that a higher limit gets you, you're paying for them.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyI think a more accurate way to put it is: to make more money. If the house can make more money by accommodating a player's wishes they will probably do so. I think that perhaps you're just looking at the situation the wrong way, you seem to be under the impression that the house is trying to do the players some sort of unrequited favor. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you want those things that a higher limit gets you, you're paying for them.
Okay. So from my position at the table; I (as a player) don't gain or lose anything except less idiocy when I play at a higher limit table; except maybe my rating, from playing at the lower limit one.
Quote: GHOkay. So from my position at the table; I (as a player) don't gain or lose anything except less idiocy when I play at a higher limit table; except maybe my rating, from playing at the lower limit one.
I think you're looking for some decisive, conclusive answer and I don't believe there really is one. A higher limit table may have more favorable rules (3:2 vs. 6:5 for bj, for example), less cards being used (2D vs. 6 or 8D), better penetration. Depending on the casino they may take into account dealer and floor supervisor experience (though I've seen break in dealers in High Limit), this can lead to value if you like becoming "known" and treated like a rock star if the same personnel are frequently on duty on the games you like to play . You probably also get better drink service because any smart CW is going to circle the High Limit room like a shark with blood in the water.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyI think you're looking for some decisive, conclusive answer and I don't believe there really is one. A higher limit table may have more favorable rules (3:2 vs. 6:5 for bj, for example), less cards being used (2D vs. 6 or 8D), better penetration. Depending on the casino they may take into account dealer and floor supervisor experience (though I've seen break in dealers in High Limit), this can lead to value if you like becoming "known" and treated like a rock star if the same personnel are frequently on duty on the games you like to play . You probably also get better drink service because any smart CW is going to circle the High Limit room like a shark with blood in the water.
I think you're getting closer to what I'm trying to figure out... All things considered equal (rules); if I have to pick between 2 tables, and the lower limit table has better "card conditions," I should just sit down and play.
Quote: GHI think you're getting closer to what I'm trying to figure out... All things considered equal (rules); if I have to pick between 2 tables, and the lower limit table has better "card conditions," I should just sit down and play.
Well, that's the thing, you're unlikely to find an "All things equal" as far as the game parameters situation. And I'm not sure what you mean by "card conditions". If you're talking about back counting a couple tables and jumping into the one with the more favorable count, then sure, that's the one to go for.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyWell, that's the thing, you're unlikely to find an "All things equal" as far as the game parameters situation. And I'm not sure what you mean by "card conditions". If you're talking about back counting a couple tables and jumping into the one with the more favorable count, then sure, that's the one to go for.
BINGO! The only thing that would matter then is the amount of attention I'd attract from putting my chips down :)
Quote: GHBINGO! The only thing that would matter then is the amount of attention I'd attract from putting my chips down :)
If you jump into a $5 game and start betting $500/hand you'll certainly get some attention. It's still hard for me to tell which kind of situation you're looking at as being more favorable, thus it's hard to tell if you'd be getting the kind of value you're looking for.
But, that's all for me, I have to go to work and fleece those poor, unsuspecting gamblers that don't know the house has an edge.
Quote: GHBINGO! The only thing that would matter then is the amount of attention I'd attract from putting my chips down :)
Well, if you're counting, I'd think that you'd be better off at the high limit table, for a few reasons:
1. If you are spreading $50 - $400 (or whatever), that is going to attract a lot of attention at the $10 table. You will probably be the biggest bettor by far. At the $50 table there might be someone playing a lot higher than you, to attract some of the attention.
2. Better dealers (usually) at the higher limit tables. Better dealers = more hands per hour = more profit per hour, if you have an edge.
3. Higher limit tables tend to be less crowded, which is good for more hands/hour (as above)
Do you really play somewhere that doesn't have better rules for higher-limit tables? It's not uncommon for high-limit tables to have rules that give 1/3 the house edge of the red chip tables.
This keeps an overly fortunate player from raising his bets too high after a lucky streak.
Limits are often used to keep a table at a de-facto "exclusive" level. One bettor at 300.00 can sit at the center of the blackjack table and be by himself amidst a sea of 20 and 50 dollar tables.
Often the most trusted dealers are in the high limit rule but often its simply to segregate the bettors because the games will move faster if there is less diversity.
Quote: GHBINGO!
Awesome! What do I win for figuring out what you really wanted to know?
For future reference stating up front what you're actually trying to figure out will get you better results quicker. Asking about table minimums when you're really looking for where to play to your advantage caused us 2+ pages of unnecessary scampering around the maypole.
No one here cares if you're a card counter, you're not going to get backed off from this site for admitting it, so next time, please, lay it out clearly from the get go.
Quote: FourFiveFaceThis might be unrelated, but I often why some high-stakes bettors sit down at low-minimum tables (this usually happens in blackjack, but sometimes to a lesser extent in roulette and craps). It's not like they ever bet at or even close to the minimum.
Hard to say, but here are a few guesses:
- It's fun to be a big shot.
- It's nice to have someone else* to blame for their loses.
*It often seems the lower the stakes, the more you see players deviate from basic strategy.
Quote: GHIf "the cards don't care what color your chips are," what is the real purpose of having table minimums? It can't be for player quality control, because from what I keep reading, the actions of other players "in the loooooong run" don't matter. Or is there something I'm missing?
Ask yourself this question...
If your base-bet is $100, would you rather sit at a $1 - $1000 table, or a $50 - $5000 table?
dealers staring into space. I had seen at least 10 people walk by pit and then head out the door in search of lower limits across the street.
His answer " Because it's Friday night "
Quote: BuzzardI once asked a supervisor why the table minimum for BJ on all his tables was $25. I mean only 4 tables, 2 people at 1 table, 3 other
dealers staring into space. I had seen at least 10 people walk by pit and then head out the door in search of lower limits across the street.
His answer " Because it's Friday night "
minimums on everything go up on fridays, saturdays, and the 1st and 15th of every month
When I launched a pay per head website, I would take bets as low as $10. Of course, I didn't make any money off the $10 players, but I viewed it as an advertising expense. Some of the $10 players would have friends that would become $300 players. And sure enough, some $10 players would become $100 players in short order. Usually after enduring a run of bad beats.
Quote: MakingbookWhen booking sports bets over the phone, I had minimums. It was necessary- I didn't want a $500 bettor to wait while I was on the phone with a $20 player. I did have different phone #'s for small player, medium player, big player; but that didn't work for long.
When I launched a pay per head website, I would take bets as low as $10. Of course, I didn't make any money off the $10 players, but I viewed it as an advertising expense. Some of the $10 players would have friends that would become $300 players. And sure enough, some $10 players would become $100 players in short order. Usually after enduring a run of bad beats.
What do TABLE minimums have to do with some little college or office betting pool that you use to run?
Minimum table bets exist because casinos want your money. The higher the minimum the faster you will likely lose your bankroll.
Quote: KeyserWhat do TABLE minimums have to do with some little college or office betting pool that you use to run?
Minimum table bets exist because casinos want your money. The higher the minimum the faster you will likely lose your bankroll.
I disagree. A higher minimum will NOT get the money if it's too high for the player to place chips in the circle. At my local casino, $15 minimum tables are surrounded 2-deep with people wanting to play. At the same time, $25 tables are empty, other than the dealer.
I used my "little office betting pool" as an example where I set higher limits and lower limits, and my rationale for each case.
I was much better running a book than most casino personnel are running a pit.
Quote: MakingbookI was much better running a book than most casino personnel are running a pit.
According to whom, Stan from accounting, or Jim the janitor?
With regards to REAL casinos and table games min., It's all about the bottom line. Taking in as much money as possible, while creating and/or catering to your repeat customers.
-Keyser
Quote: KeyserAccording to whom, Stan from accounting, or Jim the janitor?
With regards to REAL casinos and table games min., It's all about the bottom line. Taking in as much money as possible, while creating and/or catering to your repeat customers.
-Keyser
I liked Makingbook's bottom line better than some casinos. And the State of New jersey would be more likely to incarcerate him than bail him out. Say, your name looks familiar. Do you have a brother who welched on a bet ? Just asking.
(1) Higher minimums usually mean better games. That is, if you can afford a $25 table or $50 table, you'll get better rules and less decks which enables you to play a better game. $5 - $10 blackjack at a high-end strip casino usually means 6:5 blackjack, a CSM, and a crabby dealer.
(2) Market. It's better to pay a dealer minimum wage to have a few people at a $5 table than have him standing around a $25 table doing bupkus. So if the employee is scheduled to work but the traffic is not there, you will see lower limit tables. A place like the Bellagio with a great deal of overhead would probably pay a dealer to do nothing at a $10 table rather than lower the limit to $5 which attracts slow players who don't know the game.
(3) Player quality. Casinos will open a higher limit table to keep beginners away and to only attract serious players. A $50 table game player is much more valuable than a $5 table player. First off, because a $5 table player won't be loyal because s/he can find tables anywhere and the person is far more likely there to be entertained, where as a green or black player can be enticed with food, drink, and lodging and allow the casino to still make a good profit.
(4) Player choice. A player with alot of money who doesn't want to be relegated (or quality) for high limits may ask for a $100 table to keep players away.
Yeah, set limits at $25 if traffic bears it, but not just because " It's Friday night "
Play at a table with the lowest minimum and with the lowest amount possible. Nuff said.
WASHOO2
HAPPY WIUNNINGS!!!
Quote: BuzzardDo you have a brother who welched on a bet ? Just asking
No. Do you have a family member with a job?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/12473-2013-really-sucks/
Quote: GHIMHO, the El Cortez does quite well, culling small time losers.
Quote: KeyserAccording to whom, Stan from accounting, or Jim the janitor?
-Keyser
You got names crossed. Jim was in accounting, Stan was the janitor.
in Pennsylvania the rules of blackjack are strictly governed by the state. every table you play at in PA will have the exact same rules. so in this scenario, what purpose does a high minimum serve? At Sugarhouse in Philadelphia I've yet to come across a $10 table. during the week you usually see 15 and 25 split evenly and one table at 50/no mid. come friday, every table in the house is 25.
Quote: sage2050let me add something to this discussion that hasn't been brought up yet
in Pennsylvania the rules of blackjack are strictly governed by the state. every table you play at in PA will have the exact same rules. so in this scenario, what purpose does a high minimum serve? At Sugarhouse in Philadelphia I've yet to come across a $10 table. during the week you usually see 15 and 25 split evenly and one table at 50/no mid. come friday, every table in the house is 25.
The high minimum allows the house to earn enough money from each table to pay the rent, utilities, and the employees.
They roughly need to take in double the amount of wagers per hour than most standard Midwest blackjack tables to make a similar profit since they must stand on all 17s by law. Virtually all Midwest casinos are hit soft 17.
Quote: sage2050...what purpose does a high minimum serve?
