I can count, what's next?

Over the past several weeks before my internship starts I have been working on my counting a lot, both dealing double deck by hand and out of a 6 deck shoe. I am now very close to perfectly accurate counting these down and converting to TC while dealing as fast as I possibly can without making a mess of the cards. I have read several blackjack books, but from those experienced counters on here what kind of a spread do you recommend (in units not dollars) for a beginner? More specifically if you could tell fill in these blanks it would be helpful. IE TC 0> = 1 unit TC 1=x TC 2=x TC 3=x units etc. Also, I do plan on eventually memorizing as many index plays as possible, but what are the biggest ones that will get me the most EV? Thank you for your help.

Bankroll and heat permitting, spread 1-8 for the double deck game and 1-16 for the 6 deck. Max bet out at +4 or +5. For index play remember the most important one for now, which is insurance at +3. These are general guidelines. You'll have to evaluate the game you sit down to and tailor your strategy accordingly.

You now schedule to meet me in AC so we can play at the same table - and by that I mean you can count and I can rest my old brain :-)

Quote: aceofspades

You now schedule to meet me in AC so we can play at the same table - and by that I mean you can count and I can rest my old brain :-)

Counting is by no means fun. I prefer dealing cards to my dad to teach him basic strategy, but that doesn't make me any money :)

Quote: winmonkeyspit3

Counting is by no means fun. I prefer dealing cards to my dad to teach him basic strategy, but that doesn't make me any money :)

Actually I take that back, I don't mind it, I'd just rather be doing something mindless like playing 3CP.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

This is the first game most counters switch too.

Thanks but no thanks. When I first started gambling before I knew of WizardofOdds I used to play this game and get destroyed. Turning Stone has a liberal pairs plus pay table with 4x on the flush, but it's still a tough game. I stick to low HA games now when I want to play something other than bj. Just craps and Baccarat for me.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I'm not talking about playing it straight up but rather as an AP. We dont play the PP nor the bonus if there is one.

Ah holecarding. Gotcha. I've never seen a flasher where I play, they must train them because everyone covers with their left hand when they take out the dealer hand.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I'm not talking about playing it straight up but rather as an AP. We dont play the PP nor the bonus if there is one.

Good grief! I really can't understand your motivation to repeatedly blow your cover in every single thread possible. I don't play that game much, but there are people who do, and I'm sure they don't appreciate you doing everything you can to help casinos make their lives more difficult. If, as a self-described "pro," you wish to put yourself out of a job, then by all means do so. Rat yourself out to your local joint (although beware—they share information with the place down the road that is not an Mlife property). Just keep everyone else out of it, please.

OP, Here is my advice:

If you truly feel that your counting and playing is up to speed and you're using a balanced system, then practice your TC conversion harder than you think you need to. Poor TC estimation costs more than you gain from using a balanced system over and unbalanced one like KO or Red7. Learn the Illustrious 18 index plays (and Fab 4, if you have late surrender available). As noted by 1BB, the insurance deviation is the most important, followed by 16 v T. There's really no reason not to learn the Ill18+Fab4 right away, and then maybe try and add two new indices to your repertoire per day until you have a nice list of indices going. I'll be honest and tell you that I never played with more than 50-60 indices, but then again, I have no interest in being a full-time counter.

If you play for low stakes, don't waste your time with small spreads and weak play (i.e., spreading 1-16 in shoe games and making cover plays). If you want to expose yourself by counting blackjack games, at least make it worth more than minimum wage. Play unrated, keep your sessions short, and play as aggressively as you can. A big spread does not necessarily equal dramatic bet jumps at the table; backcounting can make outrageous spreads possible, as you're essentially spreading from 0-x. Since you'll be playing with the same denomination of cheques that your tablemates are using, it should be easy to make yourself look like a losing player in most sessions (mostly applicable if you must play rated).

My final piece of advice is to read the literature and think about the game on a regular basis. You'll never be as accurate as you think you are, so practice often and keep your game sharp. The rest will become apparent as you gain experience.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Good grief! I really can't understand your motivation to repeatedly blow your cover in every single thread possible. I don't play that game much, but there are people who do, and I'm sure they don't appreciate you doing everything you can to help casinos make their lives more difficult. If, as a self-described "pro," you wish to put yourself out of a job, then by all means do so. Rat yourself out to your local joint (although beware—they share information with the place down the road that is not an Mlife property). Just keep everyone else out of it, please.

OP, Here is my advice:

If you truly feel that your counting and playing is up to speed and you're using a balanced system, then practice your TC conversion harder than you think you need to. Poor TC estimation costs more than you gain from using a balanced system over and unbalanced one like KO or Red7. Learn the Illustrious 18 index plays (and Fab 4, if you have late surrender available). As noted by 1BB, the insurance deviation is the most important, followed by 16 v T. There's really no reason not to learn the Ill18+Fab4 right away, and then maybe try and add two new indices to your repertoire per day until you have a nice list of indices going. I'll be honest and tell you that I never played with more than 50-60 indices, but then again, I have no interest in being a full-time counter.

If you play for low stakes, don't waste your time with small spreads and weak play (i.e., spreading 1-16 in shoe games and making cover plays). If you want to expose yourself by counting blackjack games, at least make it worth more than minimum wage. Play unrated, keep your sessions short, and play as aggressively as you can. A big spread does not necessarily equal dramatic bet jumps at the table; backcounting can make outrageous spreads possible, as you're essentially spreading from 0-x. Since you'll be playing with the same denomination of cheques that your tablemates are using, it should be easy to make yourself look like a losing player in most sessions (mostly applicable if you must play rated).

My final piece of advice is to read the literature and think about the game on a regular basis. You'll never be as accurate as you think you are, so practice often and keep your game sharp. The rest will become apparent as you gain experience.

Thank you, very good stuff!

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Good grief! I really can't understand your motivation to repeatedly blow your cover in every single thread possible. I don't play that game much, but there are people who do, and I'm sure they don't appreciate you doing everything you can to help casinos make their lives more difficult. If, as a self-described "pro," you wish to put yourself out of a job, then by all means do so. Rat yourself out to your local joint (although beware—they share information with the place down the road that is not an Mlife property). Just keep everyone else out of it, please.

Was what he said really that bad? Flashing 3CP dealers has been a known advantage play for years. It sounds like you have additional information on where IBYA usually plays, which I don't think he has divulged publicly here. I don't see how that could have blown his cover.

Quote:

OP, Here is my advice:

If you truly feel that your counting and playing is up to speed and you're using a balanced system, then practice your TC conversion harder than you think you need to. Poor TC estimation costs more than you gain from using a balanced system over and unbalanced one like KO or Red7. Learn the Illustrious 18 index plays (and Fab 4, if you have late surrender available). As noted by 1BB, the insurance deviation is the most important, followed by 16 v T. There's really no reason not to learn the Ill18+Fab4 right away, and then maybe try and add two new indices to your repertoire per day until you have a nice list of indices going. I'll be honest and tell you that I never played with more than 50-60 indices, but then again, I have no interest in being a full-time counter.

If you play for low stakes, don't waste your time with small spreads and weak play (i.e., spreading 1-16 in shoe games and making cover plays). If you want to expose yourself by counting blackjack games, at least make it worth more than minimum wage. Play unrated, keep your sessions short, and play as aggressively as you can. A big spread does not necessarily equal dramatic bet jumps at the table; backcounting can make outrageous spreads possible, as you're essentially spreading from 0-x. Since you'll be playing with the same denomination of cheques that your tablemates are using, it should be easy to make yourself look like a losing player in most sessions (mostly applicable if you must play rated).

My final piece of advice is to read the literature and think about the game on a regular basis. You'll never be as accurate as you think you are, so practice often and keep your game sharp. The rest will become apparent as you gain experience.

That's all very good advice. One thing I struggle with is wonging and backcounting. In my short, amateur card counting experience, I've almost always used a play-all style and gone with a big spread (1-20* on shoe games, 1-10 on DD), because most of my local joints are tiny card rooms with 1 or 2 blackjack games maximum. Obviously this inhibits my ability to practice wonging. On my last trip to Vegas I made it it point to practice some wonging at places where multiple tables were readily available, and found it a lot harder than I thought. So, just some advice for other newbies in case you are in a similar situation. For me, I just need to take a bit of a longer drive to find a place with more tables to practice.

*At my my "home casino" I usually played with a very low-limit 1-20 spread on a 6D game, which came with a pretty pathetic win rate with play all, but I mainly just viewed it as practice, and was trying not to get backed off as I genuinely liked the place. They backed me off anyway, so oh well. The stupid thing is that once I got to Vegas with my real bankroll and was trying to actually accumulate some money, I would revert back to a 1-10 spread since the units were bigger. I was increasing my theoretical absolute win rate, but I got into bad habits. So, try to practice like you will play.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I dont do my "work" in Detroit. Case closed on that.

As for the OP. Just keep practicing till you feel you are ready.

I would never make any attempt to publicly out a fellow AP, just as I would not offer tons of unsolicited information on sensitive material that can have a direct negative impact on others in this business.