Vegasrider
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August 29th, 2018 at 7:33:25 AM permalink
Last night at the Nugget (Sparks NV) I hit my first Royal playing UTH after hitting a straight flush the previous night. I had $10 out which paid 500:1 or $5k plus my other bets, but no trips, I refuse to play that. Then the casino floor wanted to tax me on the win and I argued that it's not taxable since they are paying me in chips and it's technically not a progressive or a jackpot. After 10 minutes they came back and agreed. I rivered it, with a Jack Four off suit. I tried to take a picture but they didn't allow it, but I still took one when they weren't looking but it was not a clear picture. Oh well.
mrsuit31
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August 29th, 2018 at 7:36:49 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Last night at the Nugget (Sparks NV) I hit my first Royal playing UTH after hitting a straight flush the previous night. I had $10 out which paid 500:1 or $5k plus my other bets, but no trips, I refuse to play that. Then the casino floor wanted to tax me on the win and I argued that it's not taxable since they are paying me in chips and it's technically not a progressive or a jackpot. After 10 minutes they came back and agreed. I rivered it, with a Jack Four off suit. I tried to take a picture but they didn't allow it, but I still took one when they weren't looking but it was not a clear picture. Oh well.



If you win over 299-1 on a table game, it's a taxable event. You got away with one here if they didn't tax you. Even if you're paid in chips, the tax should have been withheld.
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100xOdds
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August 29th, 2018 at 7:44:13 AM permalink
Quote: mrsuit31

If you win over 299-1 on a table game, it's a taxable event. You got away with one here if they didn't tax you. Even if you're paid in chips, the tax should have been withheld.


congrats Vegasrider.

and you should have at least gotten a W2-G form.
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beachbumbabs
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August 29th, 2018 at 8:11:58 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Last night at the Nugget (Sparks NV) I hit my first Royal playing UTH after hitting a straight flush the previous night. I had $10 out which paid 500:1 or $5k plus my other bets, but no trips, I refuse to play that. Then the casino floor wanted to tax me on the win and I argued that it's not taxable since they are paying me in chips and it's technically not a progressive or a jackpot. After 10 minutes they came back and agreed. I rivered it, with a Jack Four off suit. I tried to take a picture but they didn't allow it, but I still took one when they weren't looking but it was not a clear picture. Oh well.



Wow. Mega congrats on the Royal. The big pay is on the Blind for that, anyway.

Also, good job correcting them on the tax requirements. Have to agree about the withholding - but it should have been a W2G, and optional whether they withhold federal at that time.

Terribly jealous. I've had a half-dozen SF and several 4toaRF, but never completed it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Lovecomps
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August 29th, 2018 at 8:31:12 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Last night at the Nugget (Sparks NV) I hit my first Royal playing UTH after hitting a straight flush the previous night. I had $10 out which paid 500:1 or $5k plus my other bets, but no trips, I refuse to play that. Then the casino floor wanted to tax me on the win and I argued that it's not taxable since they are paying me in chips and it's technically not a progressive or a jackpot. After 10 minutes they came back and agreed. I rivered it, with a Jack Four off suit. I tried to take a picture but they didn't allow it, but I still took one when they weren't looking but it was not a clear picture. Oh well.



Congratulations on the Royal Flush. Any gambling wins are offset by gambling losses on your taxes. If you can, try to find a way to document your losses. I know how to do this but it might run afoul of the forum rules.
The best things in life are not free.
beachbumbabs
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August 29th, 2018 at 8:37:56 AM permalink
Quote: Lovecomps

Congratulations on the Royal Flush. Any gambling wins are offset by gambling losses on your taxes. If you can, try to find a way to document your losses. I know how to do this but it might run afoul of the forum rules.



Can't think of anything you would say about documenting losses that would run afoul of the forum rules. So if you have advice to offer, feel free, cite any quotes, etc.

This has been discussed and lots of advice given in other threads, fwiw. You might Google the archives, see what we have, too.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Vegasrider
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August 30th, 2018 at 9:15:19 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs



Also, good job correcting them on the tax requirements. Have to agree about the withholding - but it should have been a W2G, and optional whether they withhold federal at that time.



For whatever reasons, most table games are exempt from W2G, unless it's an envy bet, some sort of progressive or jackpot. Trust me, it took them a good ten minutes to verify with whoever they needed to verify with. I think I'm the first player to hit a non paying jackpot that paid $5k so they were puzzled when I explained. I've played again last night sitting down at the same table with the same floor staff and it's not like they came up to me and said we made a mistake, we need some of the chips back to withhold federal taxes. Poker tournaments at the Bellagiio use to pay you in chips with zero paper work but I believe they have incorporated the W2Gs into all the poker tournaments whether the prize money is paid in chips or cash.
Zcore13
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August 30th, 2018 at 10:11:09 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

For whatever reasons, most table games are exempt from W2G, unless it's an envy bet, some sort of progressive or jackpot. Trust me, it took them a good ten minutes to verify with whoever they needed to verify with. I think I'm the first player to hit a non paying jackpot that paid $5k so they were puzzled when I explained. I've played again last night sitting down at the same table with the same floor staff and it's not like they came up to me and said we made a mistake, we need some of the chips back to withhold federal taxes. Poker tournaments at the Bellagiio use to pay you in chips with zero paper work but I believe they have incorporated the W2Gs into all the poker tournaments whether the prize money is paid in chips or cash.



I doubt it was your explanation that made the difference because your information is incorrect.

Any table games wager that wins a payout of over $600 and odds of at least 300-1 receives a W2G. Any payout of over $5,000 is taxable. Doesn't matter if it's a progressive or not. But, in your case, your payout on a single bet did not exceed $5,000. That is why you were not taxed. Had your payout been anything over $5,000, they would have withheld 24% no matter what you said.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
rdw4potus
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August 31st, 2018 at 8:22:36 AM permalink
How is the 500:1 calculated? Is only the blind looked at for taxability purposes? I'd argue that if I'm required to have $30 total in play, then $5k is 166x my bet...
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Vegasrider
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August 31st, 2018 at 9:02:41 AM permalink
Any payout over $5k does not constitute a federal witholding at a non progressive table game or jackpot. Slots, video poker yes. Table games you have players betting and winning more that 5k at a time. They may not be winning 500 times their but their winning bet is over $5k as you say.


They may then chip up and leave. Whether they go to the cage and cash out all the chips is a different story as a CTR must be filed. But most people know not to cash all the chips out at once if they want to fly under the radar. .

Chips are not classified as currency so their is some valid reasoning on why no forms are required at the table game whenever their is a payout over $5k . But to turn cash into chips or chips into cash, depending on the amount, that must be reported by law.
Zcore13
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August 31st, 2018 at 9:09:31 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Any payout over $5k does not constitute a federal witholding at a non progressive table game or jackpot. Slots, video poker yes. Table games you have players betting and winning more that 5k at a time. They may not be winning 500 times their but their winning bet is over $5k as you say.


They may then chip up and leave. Whether they go to the cage and cash out all the chips is a different story as a CTR must be filed. But most people know not to cash all the chips out at once if they want to fly under the radar. .

Chips are not classified as currency so their is some valid reasoning on why no forms are required at the table game whenever their is a payout over $5k . But to turn cash into chips or chips into cash, depending on the amount, that must be reported by law.



Nobody is talking about large even money bets. 300-1 payout and over $5,000 gets taxes withheld. Read the IRS W2G regulations online at the IRS website. Very specific on the rules.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Joeman
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August 31st, 2018 at 9:24:39 AM permalink
OK, now I'm confused. When I hit a $10K VP payout at Harrah's NO, there was no federal withholding. The state of Louisiana did take out 6% (most of which I got back by filing my state income tax). Did they screw up? Maybe the law was different in 2016?

Still had to report it on my 1040, so the IRS got what was due.

BTW, nice hit OP!
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
Mission146
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August 31st, 2018 at 10:15:52 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

OK, now I'm confused. When I hit a $10K VP payout at Harrah's NO, there was no federal withholding. The state of Louisiana did take out 6% (most of which I got back by filing my state income tax). Did they screw up? Maybe the law was different in 2016?

Still had to report it on my 1040, so the IRS got what was due.

BTW, nice hit OP!



The Federal Withholding is not mandatory, (at that time with appropriate identification-SSN) but the W2G is. You may opt to have Federal Taxes deducted from what you are paid at the time, and if so, the W2G will then reflect that.

Louisiana and Ohio are two examples of states that deduct a state income tax from the winnings prior to them being paid to you. I don't know about Louisiana, but in the State of Ohio, there is also no way for you to use gambling losses to offset gambling wins in order to recover those funds. They're gone.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Joeman
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August 31st, 2018 at 10:44:51 AM permalink
Thanks, Mission!

Quote: Mission146

Louisiana and Ohio are two examples of states that deduct a state income tax from the winnings prior to them being paid to you. I don't know about Louisiana, but in the State of Ohio, there is also no way for you to use gambling losses to offset gambling wins in order to recover those funds. They're gone.

In my case, I had a total of $12k in W2Gs form Louisiana. They withheld 6% ($720). I had my tax preparer file a Louisiana state return. I don't think she was able to write off any losses, but the fact that my total income in Louisiana for the year was $12k put me in a much lower tax bracket. So I was able to get a $600+ refund.

The slot attendant was the one who told me that I could get most of the withhholdings back if I filed. So, she definitely earned her tip!

Mississippi is another state that withholds state taxes on W2Gs. They take out 3%. I don't know if you can get any of it back by filing a state return. The most I've had withheld from a hand pay in MS is $60, and the slot attendant didn't say anything about filing to get it back.

I also got a hand pay in IL last year. They did not withhold anything, but that's the only time when the attendant asked me if I wanted any taken out. (No, thanks, I'll take the whole amount!)
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
Mission146
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August 31st, 2018 at 10:55:37 AM permalink
West Virginia and Pennsylvania are the only states in which I have hit handpays, and neither of those two states took anything out at the time. My understanding is that Nevada does not take anything out, either. I don't know if I was supposed to file a non-resident tax form in either of those two states, but I was certainly not inclined to do so, so I didn't.

I guess it's something good for people to know if they are worried about it or need to use that information in figuring out the value of an advantage play (such as a must-hit) for example. I might do a write-up down the road that lists how it works in every state if there is some interest, probably in a month or two.

Different casinos may have different policies in place for whether attendants have to ask, or not, but as far as Federal Taxes are concerned, I believe it is something you could always request. I certainly wouldn't ask you were I an attendant because it would create more work for me.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Vegasrider
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August 31st, 2018 at 1:44:42 PM permalink
Factoring my wager of $10 came into play by not breaking that $5k net payoff.
FCBLComish
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August 31st, 2018 at 2:39:33 PM permalink
Quote: mrsuit31

If you win over 299-1 on a table game, it's a taxable event. You got away with one here if they didn't tax you. Even if you're paid in chips, the tax should have been withheld.



Federal Tax rules for Table Games:

1) Anything paying 300:1 AND over $600 is reportable.

2) Anything that is reportable (see #1) AND over $5000 must have taxes withheld.

Please note the AND in both statements.

This is directly from the instructions on the W2-G and can be found at IRS website.
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Vegasrider
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August 31st, 2018 at 6:17:38 PM permalink
From the IRS website. I did not exceed $5k

You must withhold federal income tax from the winnings if the winnings minus the wager exceed $5,000 and the winnings are at least 300 times the wager. Withhold 24% of the proceeds (the winnings minus the wager). This is regular gambling withholding.
Zcore13
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August 31st, 2018 at 8:17:45 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Factoring my wager of $10 came into play by not breaking that $5k net payoff.



No it didn't. You weren't paid over $5,000 either way.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
mrsuit31
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August 31st, 2018 at 9:16:05 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

Federal Tax rules for Table Games:

1) Anything paying 300:1 AND over $600 is reportable.

2) Anything that is reportable (see #1) AND over $5000 must have taxes withheld.

Please note the AND in both statements.

This is directly from the instructions on the W2-G and can be found at IRS website.



Clearly my initial response was incomplete and therefore incorrect. Zcore and FCBLComish know what that are talking about.

Sorry for my incomplete misstatement.

Nice hit, I haven’t hit one to date. My best has been a straight flush.
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Commish
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September 16th, 2018 at 6:09:48 AM permalink
Just to verify I just got my 3rd Royal. It was for $12,500 on a $25 wager and there was withholding on it.
Vegasrider
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September 16th, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM permalink
12,500. Well over 5000, they probably took out federal taxes, 23%

Nice hit.
ChumpChange
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September 20th, 2018 at 10:58:36 PM permalink
So even a Fire Bet that pays 1000 for 1 on a $1 bet (or higher) is reportable and if the bet was $6 it'd be subject to withholding.

But if I win a $1000 pass line with 5X odds, there's no paperwork except for the internal casino MTL (fixed letters) when I go to the cage; if I had 10X odds then they'd skip the MTL (fixed letters) and go straight to the CTR, unless I lost that bet again thrice before I got to the cage when I've got less than a $1000. They won't throw a CTR at me at the table would they?
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Sep 21, 2018
michael99000
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September 20th, 2018 at 11:18:02 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

So even a Fire Bet that pays 1000 for 1 on a $1 bet (or higher) is reportable and if the bet was $6 it'd be subject to withholding.

But if I win a $1000 pass line with 5X odds, there's no paperwork except for the internal casino SAR when I go to the cage; if I had 10X odds then they'd skip the SAR and go straight to the CTR, unless I lost that bet again thrice before I got to the cage when I've got less than a $1000. They won't throw a CTR at me at the table would they?



Why do you think the casino would file a Suspicious Activity Report simply because you are cashing chips in? Chips for legitimate winnings that they can easily verify.
ChumpChange
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September 20th, 2018 at 11:29:02 PM permalink
Don't they just fill SARS out in an attempt to aggregate your window transactions so if you go over $10K on your 10th trip to the window in one day they can whip out the CTR backed with SARs? Once you fill out the CTR, they can throw out some of those SARS, or they can just chuck them at the end of their gaming day. Just useless cheat sheets.

Edit: should have wrote MTL instead of SARs. Thanks.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Sep 21, 2018
RS
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September 21st, 2018 at 12:08:33 AM permalink
CTR is for a cash transaction. If you buy in for over $10k aggregate, then you’ll get a CTR at the table — they’ll ask for ID & SSN and they fill out the form.

@ChumpChange — I don’t think that’s how SARs work. I think you’re thinking of an internal system (MTL?).
ChumpChange
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September 21st, 2018 at 12:19:01 AM permalink
Multiple Transaction Log - $3000 or less trigger.
http://www.indiangaming.com/istore/Sep10_Maddocks.pdf
ChumpChange
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September 21st, 2018 at 12:28:38 AM permalink
I'm thinking that the best way for a high roller to document their wins and losses is to buy in for $20,000+ and cash out over $10,000 so the difference is obvious on the CTR form. But I wouldn't get a copy of that filled out form would I?
RS
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September 21st, 2018 at 7:06:29 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

I'm thinking that the best way for a high roller to document their wins and losses is to buy in for $20,000+ and cash out over $10,000 so the difference is obvious on the CTR form. But I wouldn't get a copy of that filled out form would I?


No, you wouldn’t get it. At least not normally.

I’m not sure if you can request a copy of it or not — I know some stuff is very “secretive”.
BTLWI
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September 22nd, 2018 at 3:16:09 AM permalink
For poker tournaments it has to be $5000 over the buy in. I won $5115 but the buy in was $365 so there was no W2-G. Not sure why everyone is arguing that anything over $5000 is a W2-G, that's certainly not true for poker.
beachbumbabs
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September 22nd, 2018 at 7:42:23 AM permalink
Quote: BTLWI

For poker tournaments it has to be $5000 over the buy in. I won $5115 but the buy in was $365 so there was no W2-G. Not sure why everyone is arguing that anything over $5000 is a W2-G, that's certainly not true for poker.



I don't think.everyone IS arguing that. It's as single bet better than 1:300 odds AND over whatever. I don't think it's simply $5000 anywhere for a W2G.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
ChumpChange
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September 27th, 2018 at 4:11:51 PM permalink
I'm gonna assume there's no reporting or withholding if I win the Spanish 21 Super Bonus because $1000/$5 bet = 200X, and $5000/$25 bet = 200X. They'll just push a few high value chips my way, but if I win it twice in the same day I might have a problem at the cage.
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