Winning, then tax issues?

I'm a bit confused about what happens if you get "lucky" and win call it over $10,000.usd..

I don't even have a Social Security card and surly Las Vegas and other venues have players winning over 10k all the time.

Do these casino's, Las Vegas, Reno, Atlantic City, and others, in fact refuse to pay you if you don't produce such documents?

Quote: NokTang

I'm a bit confused about what happens if you get "lucky" and win call it over $10,000.usd..

I don't even have a Social Security card and surly Las Vegas and other venues have players winning over 10k all the time.

Do these casino's, Las Vegas, Reno, Atlantic City, and others, in fact refuse to pay you if you don't produce such documents?

30% off the top to the casino/IRS. Depending on where you are from, you can get some back when you file your taxes.

Quote: NokTang

I'm a bit confused about what happens if you get "lucky" and win call it over $10,000.usd..

I don't even have a Social Security card and surly Las Vegas and other venues have players winning over 10k all the time.

Do these casino's, Las Vegas, Reno, Atlantic City, and others, in fact refuse to pay you if you don't produce such documents?

I think they can refuse to pay if you do not provide identification, and should hold the winnings until you return with your ID. If you don't have a social security card, they will withhold a standard percentage.

Quote: CrystalMath

I think they can refuse to pay if you do not provide identification, and should hold the winnings until you return with your ID. If you don't have a social security card, they will withhold a standard percentage.

I don't think he is questioning producing ID. He is asking about a social. The casino will take 30% but depending on your country you can get it back by completing forms.
http://www.vegaschatter.com/story/2013/9/27/3917/58056/vegas-travel/When+Your+Winnings+Are+Taxed+But+You+Don%27t+Live+In+America,+Eh

OP, this will also apply to any win of $1200 or more. It does not have to be 10k.

You're withheld on >$1,200 at the highest tax bracket, the assumption being that you're in that bracket. It all reconciles in the end ... if your winnings are low enough to where your losses offset it, you'll get it back after the government holds it interest-free for however-many months. I've done this a few times, reporting only the 1099 amounts and not proving up the losses and never had a problem ... but that was when we only owed $5 - $6 trillion or so, not the $17+ trillion that we owe now.

The $10,000 thing comes into play when you try to carry cash. When the laws changed after 9/11, any cash of $10,000 or more triggers a couple of things that you have to deal with. I've never tested it so I don't know what happens, I just know something happens.

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I assumed he was talking the cage where they'd hit you with the CTR.

Yes, I'm talking about table game winnings and totals, not slot jackpots.

If you buy in for $10,000.usd and cash out for $11,000.usd obvious to you it wasn't winnings. I'm asking if this is really an issue when chips involved.

Quote: NokTang

Yes, I'm talking about table game winnings and totals, not slot jackpots.

If you buy in for $10,000.usd and cash out for $11,000.usd obvious to you it wasn't winnings. I'm asking if this is really an issue when chips involved.

I don't think you'll need a social security number or card. There wouldn't be anyway to track terrorists and drug dealers etc. if it was necessary. You might just want to ask at the casino or friends in similar situations to get a better answer.

One thing I do know is you shouldn't avoid them because you most likely can't and would just get a suspicious activity report added to them.

Quote: NokTang

Yes, I'm talking about table game winnings and totals, not slot jackpots.

If you buy in for $10,000.usd and cash out for $11,000.usd obvious to you it wasn't winnings. I'm asking if this is really an issue when chips involved.

I don't know how much you are risking on 1 spin but you could just buy in for 1k at a time that way it will only matter if you are up 9k.

You could set up a line of credit with the casino(s) you're going to play in.

Quote: RS

You could set up a line of credit with the casino(s) you're going to play in.

With the credit line and/or front money, you would still be faced with scrutiny if you win over $10,000.usd ?

This little sense to me since I come from the "old days" but just getting prepared. I suppose one could just cash out his chips two or three times......

Quote: NokTang

With the credit line and/or front money, you would still be faced with scrutiny if you win over $10,000.usd ?

Most likely yes, because they will probably pay you in cash. I have heard of folks requesting a check for table games winnings, and I'm assuming this would be a valid request at that level of money. And if they use a check, no CTR required since it's not cash. But, if giving up your identity is what you're worrying about, this route doesn't help at all.

I think if you lost more than $10K on a credit line, there wouldn't be a CTR as you generally would pay back your debt via a check later, and hence no cash, no CTR.

I have never requested a check for my winnings nor played on a credit line. So take my posts on this topic with a grain of salt. But based on my understanding on the rules, that is how I think everything would shake out.

Quote:

This little sense to me since I come from the "old days" but just getting prepared. I suppose one could just cash out his chips two or three times......

Seriously though, that's structuring and is a felony. You shouldn't do it...I'm not sure the likelihood of getting caught, but "I wasn't structuring" isn't a valid excuse. Any series of transactions that look like they might have been made so as to avoid getting a CTR filed by staying under $10K each are liable to be called structuring.

Just ask Rush Limbaugh, lol

Quote: AcesAndEights

Most likely yes, because they will probably pay you in cash. I have heard of folks requesting a check for table games winnings, and I'm assuming this would be a valid request at that level of money. And if they use a check, no CTR required since it's not cash. But, if giving up your identity is what you're worrying about, this route doesn't help at all.

I think if you lost more than $10K on a credit line, there wouldn't be a CTR as you generally would pay back your debt via a check later, and hence no cash, no CTR.

I have never requested a check for my winnings nor played on a credit line. So take my posts on this topic with a grain of salt. But based on my understanding on the rules, that is how I think everything would shake out.



Seriously though, that's structuring and is a felony. You shouldn't do it...I'm not sure the likelihood of getting caught, but "I wasn't structuring" isn't a valid excuse. Any series of transactions that look like they might have been made so as to avoid getting a CTR filed by staying under $10K each are liable to be called structuring.

Just ask Rush Limbaugh, lol

Wouldn't there be a CTR when cashing check anyway ?

Quote:

Taken From Wiki's Entry On Title 31

Currency transactions that occur within a single Gaming Day (the normal 24-hour period that any casino uses for accounting and business reporting), whether the currency is paid into the casino, paid out, or exchanged (in the case of foreign currency exchanges), in excess of $10,000 requires the completion of a Currency Transaction Report (CTR, FinCEN Form 112) and must contain enough information to accurately identify the individual(s) transacting the currency.

For example, if a man walks into a casino and stops at the blackjack tables and buys into the game for $12,000 (using cash), a CTR must be completed by the casino and filed with the IRS. In this example, currency is paid into the casino in the form of cash and happened within the unique 24-hour Gaming Day of the casino.

Here is an example of a cash out transaction: the established Gaming Day of a certain casino begins at 3:00am and ends at 2:59am. At 6:30am, a woman takes $6,400 in slot machine tickets to the main cage of the casino and requests payment in all $20 bills. Later that day, at around 7:10pm, the same woman approaches another cash cage on the opposite side of the casino and exchanges $4,000 in blackjack chips for cash. Because $10,400 was paid out in cash to a single individual in a single Gaming Day, a CTR must be filed by the casino to report the Cash Out transaction, because it is above the $10,000 threshold.

Because multiple transactions are aggregated for the purpose of Title 31 reporting, casinos create tracking programs to identify large transactions and automatically aggregate them in real time to ensure that they are compliant with the regulations.

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The worst thing is to win a casino drawing. I won a Diamond Renewal Drawing for $3,000 at Harrah's Cherokee last year. I got a 1099 from the tribe rather than a W2-G that I could offset losses with!

Quote: AxelWolf

Wouldn't there be a CTR when cashing check anyway ?

No, because CTRs are only for cash transactions, because they were created to combat money laundering. If you can keep your transactions in non-cash form, there is no need to worry about CTRs.

Quote: AcesAndEights

No, because CTRs are only for cash transactions, because they were created to combat money laundering. If you can keep your transactions in non-cash form, there is no need to worry about CTRs.

But you will have the MIL to contend with (Monetary Instrument Log - Internal Form. Not required to be submitted to FinCEN, BUT can be used to accompany a CTR) and most state laws require ID to cash/receive a check at a casino or perform a credit card transaction.

Quote: grbjdealer

Quote: AcesAndEights

No, because CTRs are only for cash transactions, because they were created to combat money laundering. If you can keep your transactions in non-cash form, there is no need to worry about CTRs.

But you will have the MIL to contend with (Monetary Instrument Log - Internal Form. Not required to be submitted to FinCEN, BUT can be used to accompany a CTR) and most state laws require ID to cash/receive a check at a casino or perform a credit card transaction.

Absolutely, if you request a check for $15K or even if you wire $15K in to the cage to gamble with, you are going to be dealing with paperwork and showing ID. So if your goal in avoiding a CTR is to maintain your anonymity, then going the check route isn't going to accomplish that goal. I was just stating the fact that CTRs are for cash transactions only.

If you have a shload of chips you need to cash out, and don't want to show ID, your best bet is to just cash them out a few at a time. Now we're back to structuring. So technically you're a felon, but if you keep it chill I doubt you would ever raise suspicion.

I'm just glad I don't play at stakes this high. Most I've cashed out at one time, at a game where I was attempting to stay anonymous, was about $3K. At some casinos even this amount would cause them to ask for ID, but not at most bigger casinos.

Back to the OP's question. If you are not a US citizen and expect the possibility of hitting a big jackpot on a machine game, you should get yourself an ITIN and familiarize yourself with the tax treaty status between your nation of citizenship and the US. Depending on that relationship, you will be able to get some or all of any tax withheld back by filing a return with the IRS. There are businesses who handle this for you, but of course they charge a fee or take a cut. Depending on your comfort level with tax forms etc., you can probably handle it yourself. But the fee might be nominal, I really have no idea.

I know that if you give your SSN to the casino, they won't withhold anything on the W-2G because they can be sure the IRS will associate the win with your name and SSN, and if you don't report it you will be in trouble. Now, if you are a foreign national and give them an ITIN, I'm not sure how they will treat it with respect to withholding. As a US citizen who plays mostly table games, this is outside my area of experience :).

Now, if you are playing table games, I don't think you will have a problem. Cash out a big win and they will ask for your ID, but they won't withhold any taxes (this applies to US citizens as well). It might be handy to have an ITIN in this situation as well, I'm not sure.

Quote: AcesAndEights

I know that if you give your SSN to the casino, they won't withhold anything on the W-2G because they can be sure the IRS will associate the win with your name and SSN, and if you don't report it you will be in trouble. Now, if you are a foreign national and give them an ITIN, I'm not sure how they will treat it with respect to withholding. As a US citizen who plays mostly table games, this is outside my area of experience :).

From some personal research, I know that due to our tax treaty a British citizen with an ITIN should be subject to no withholdings when the appropriate paperwork is filled in. For Strip casinos this process should take no more than an hour, but familiarity with this (and im guessing all regulations regarding foreign tax) decreases the further you get from the strip.

Quote: AcesAndEights

I know that if you give your SSN to the casino, they won't withhold anything on the W-2G because they can be sure the IRS will associate the win with your name and SSN

That's actually not accurate.

There are certain trigger marks for both the issuance of a W2-G (1200+) and automatic withholding ($5000 or more not including original wager and must be 300x original wager or more)

Easy examples:

Regular table games wins on Blackjack or Craps of any amount = no W2-G

$1 Side Bet paying 1000-1 = No W2-G

$2 Side bet paying 1000-1 = W2-G but no withholding

$5 Side bet paying 1000-1 = W2-G AND 25% automatic withholding

$25 Side bet paying 200-1 = NO W2-G generated

There are exceptions to the rule of the 25% rate that can slide quite a bit if other requirements are not met.

Quote: IRS

Withholding

You must withhold federal income tax from the winnings if the winnings minus the wager exceed $5,000 and the winnings are at least 300 times the wager. Withhold 25% of the proceeds (the winnings minus the wager). This is regular gambling withholding.

If the winner of reportable gambling winnings does not provide a TIN, you must backup withhold at the rate of 28% on any such winnings that are not subject to 25% regular gambling withholding. That is, backup withholding applies if the winnings are at least $600 but not more than $5,000 and are at least 300 times the wager. Figure backup withholding on the amount of the winnings reduced, at the option of the payer, by the amount wagered.

Quote: grbjdealer

That's actually not accurate.

There are certain trigger marks for both the issuance of a W2-G (1200+) and automatic withholding ($5000 or more not including original wager and must be 300x original wager or more)

Easy examples:

Regular table games wins on Blackjack or Craps of any amount = no W2-G

$1 Side Bet paying 1000-1 = No W2-G

$2 Side bet paying 1000-1 = W2-G but no withholding

$5 Side bet paying 1000-1 = W2-G AND 25% automatic withholding

$25 Side bet paying 200-1 = NO W2-G generated

There are exceptions to the rule of the 25% rate that can slide quite a bit if other requirements are not met.

Quote: IRS

Withholding

You must withhold federal income tax from the winnings if the winnings minus the wager exceed $5,000 and the winnings are at least 300 times the wager. Withhold 25% of the proceeds (the winnings minus the wager). This is regular gambling withholding.

If the winner of reportable gambling winnings does not provide a TIN, you must backup withhold at the rate of 28% on any such winnings that are not subject to 25% regular gambling withholding. That is, backup withholding applies if the winnings are at least $600 but not more than $5,000 and are at least 300 times the wager. Figure backup withholding on the amount of the winnings reduced, at the option of the payer, by the amount wagered.

Good catch; I forgot about the W-2G thresholds for table games.

I thought a 1000-1 win on a $1 table games side bet would generate a W-2G? It's over 300-1 and it's over $600. I have never been issued one (generally don't play side bets) but I thought that was how it worked. According to the paragraph quoted above, "backup withholding" would apply if they don't provide a TIN. They can't do backup withholding without a W-2G, right?