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FleaStiff
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May 23rd, 2013 at 8:12:48 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I think what it comes down to is this:

While it IS illegal to cheat, it IS NOT illegal to talk a casino into cheating itself.


Particularly in Cantonese with a dealer who is at best gullible and a manager who is at best asleep.
FleaStiff
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May 23rd, 2013 at 11:11:35 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater, in a different thread


if you want to beat baccarat, do what phil ivey did. find a few dealers dumb enough to turn around the 8s and 9s for you and then use the sorted edges to bet with an advantage, knowing the first card.



Query: Was Phil Ivey doing this or was he merely a "front man" with the Cantonese speaking Asian Woman from Las Vegas being the actual mastermind? She is the one alleged to have a known history of edge sorting experience in casinos and I doubt she and Ivey just wandered into Crockfords on a date or something.

Phil Ivey had the reputation and persona and skills... but it may have been that he was the front man.
sodawater
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May 23rd, 2013 at 11:16:38 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes. Poker cards are all plastic, as opposed to plastic coated heavy paper, but the back pattern still goes to the edge. A couple decks I have from the Claridge are definitely edge sortable.

A little off topic, but does anyone know why casino cards have a geometric pattern going to the edge, while store-bought cards generally have a border around the edge. The casino-style card also makes it easier to deal seconds undetected, and perhaps false shuffles. I hope telitot notices this question.




Its much easier to mark cards that have borders as opposed to patterns to the end... See Darwin Ortiz s book gambling scams, he has a whole chapter on this
GBV
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May 24th, 2013 at 4:42:48 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: sodawater, in a different thread

if you want to beat baccarat, do what phil ivey did. find a few dealers dumb enough to turn around the 8s and 9s for you and then use the sorted edges to bet with an advantage, knowing the first card.



I would hesitate to call this scheme wise.

It would have been very easy to work out what was going on. Even if the casino was unaware of the concept of edge-sorting, the eye definitely would be on the look-out for Ivey betting big with foreknowledge of cards he wasn't supposed to have. That's the primary tell when it comes to marked cards.
The sheer weirdness of asking the dealer to rotate cards is a very obvious aberration, even if you don't know why it is being done it is obvious there is something weird happening.

But for the amounts of money involved and the status of Ivey as a poker player, I would probably call this a square play. You don't need to actually sort the cards to beat the game. Nor do you need to be a piggy.
FleaStiff
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May 24th, 2013 at 5:13:30 AM permalink
Well, the Ivey & Asian Woman matter is before the courts so under UK law I believe we will have no more publicity about it, I'm not sure.

Sodawater's tongue-in-cheek suggestion was humorous but does bring out the one essential point that it is weirder than all get out that any casino employee would do such a thing and that he would do it without knowing what was going on. It seems Crockfords was a victim of inexperienced employees as well as allowing communication in Cantonese when only the dealer not the Inspector (Floor Person) knew the language. If there was bribery to induce the stupidity that has not yet been alleged much less even shown. And speaking of stupidity, that initial internal review by the casino is said to have failed to uncover any improprieties at all because all they were looking for was for the players to have at any time touched the cards or the shoe.

As to who was Top Banana and who was Second Banana in this act, let us just say that each had their roles and each played them sufficiently well, that it matters little as to who gets top billing between them. Asian woman had already been banned from some places in Las Vegas for edge sorting schemes... so she hopped a flight to London and dragged Ivey along, kicking and screaming. I don't know. All I know is that the team worked well together and the world is stunned at such a stupid casino.

Lesson to be learned: Casinos! Pay your employees a decent wage and get alert and educated types. Deuces are not wild no matter what your players tell you, cards don't get re-oriented no matter your players tell you. I don't care if that Chinese Silk dress is slinky and low cut, you don't turn the cards or do anything else that is not in your procedures book. And if casinos want to cater to Cantonese speaking gamblers they had better well cater to Cantonese speaking employees first.
100xOdds
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May 24th, 2013 at 7:45:04 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Press reporting a few newly disclosed facts.

Name of "Asian woman from Las Vegas". (I don't think its important that we repeat her name here, she is not necessarily a public figure under USA laws merely because an English casino makes allegations of her cheating in the UK).

Sizes of bets in first two days.

Specific request from Ivey that casino use exact same cards the next day.

Request from Ivey that manager leave the room.

link.



wtf asking thepit boss to leave the room?!
why would a casino comply?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Paigowdan
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May 24th, 2013 at 8:09:44 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I would believe according to paigowdan this would definitely be cheating. Not necessarily illegal just cheating. I really can't believe that if any of this is true people are not more suspicious of his poker wins.


Clearly a scam was pulled.

I don't consider this in any way "slick," and I certainly don't consider it clean play. Not going to make any legal calls here, knowing that legions here will claim that it was not cheating - aside to say that as far as game-play goes, it was dirty as hell.
Me:
1. Ivey is not entitled to the money. 0%. The damage he did to his gambling play reputation is also well deserved. He should not have been 500 miles near this scene.

2. The casino should be fined the amount of the loss to the gaming commission - to send everyone in the industry to Eliot's Game Protection seminars, with exams covering all these potential scams. And yeah, this one was a scam.

3. The dealer should at least be accused of collusion, if only to admit his abject stupidity openly, and to put ALL pit personnel on notice that you take NO "seemingly benign request" to perform any "silly voodoo tricks" by request - like a freaking DJ - from any player on any live game's cards, dice, or procedures.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
teliot
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May 24th, 2013 at 8:32:53 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

2. The casino should be fined the amount of the loss to the gaming commission - to send everyone in the industry to Eliot's Game Protection seminars, with exams covering all these potential scams. And yeah, this one was a scam.

Thanks for the plug, Dan!

Yes, I covered edge sorting at length, for all sorts of games, baccarat included. This method of beating the house has been going on for a very long time. I personally view edge sorting as an advantage play (which is why I included it in my seminar). The fact that it has never been prosecuted in Nevada certainly supports my opinion. However, the way Ivey pulled it off, I'm not sure which side of the coin is going to turn up in his case.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
midwestgb
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May 24th, 2013 at 8:40:37 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca



A raconteur in the mold of Titanic Thompson, Phil Ivey.



Best line of the year in WOV.
GBV
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May 24th, 2013 at 9:17:17 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

2. The casino should be fined the amount of the loss to the gaming commission - to send everyone in the industry to Eliot's Game Protection seminars, with exams covering all these potential scams. And yeah, this one was a scam.



Please, God, yes. That would be fantastic.

Sharp AP's around the globe would be rejoicing. I would just love it if casinos thought that, say, putting in a turn to their shuffles would negate this type of play.
Paigowdan
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May 24th, 2013 at 9:30:34 AM permalink
Quote: GBV

Please, God, yes. That would be fantastic.

Sharp AP's around the globe would be rejoicing. I would just love it if casinos thought that, say, putting in a turn to their shuffles would negate this type of play.


I'm sure that some casinos think that all game protection takes is adding a "George Costanza Swirl" to the shuffle. It takes a lot more than that, and Eliot is more comprehensive than you think. But certainly, no one is as cutting edge as a top AP-er emerging from his evil lair with a new prototype.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
GBV
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May 24th, 2013 at 10:14:13 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I'm sure that some casinos think that all game protection takes is adding a "George Costanza Swirl" to the shuffle. It takes a lot more than that, and Eliot is more comprehensive than you think. But certainly, no one is as cutting edge as a top AP-er emerging from his evil lair with a new prototype.



The actual outcome of a turn is that your surveillance people are no longer able to follow the cards nor determine when an AP is using that information. Most of my EV from sorts involved, ironically, no sorting, in games with a turn. I might have a 2.5% edge where I could have a 7% edge, but I'm still going to take all your cash sooner or later with the added problem that you don't know what I'm doing and I can do what I'm doing forever.

The small minority of casinos which use comprehensive shuffles and accurate centreing (much more difficult than it appears) are usually just creating other opportunities. It is almost impossible to avoid physical card exposure using more complex shuffles for example.

This doesn't even take into consideration the HPH you lose and the associated irritation to the vast, vast majority of your clueless marks, I mean, "customers". Or the opportunities you create for that much bigger problem, flat-out cheats. A turn is a great opportunity to switch in a cooler or pre-arranged slug for example, impossible to detect if done right even if you are looking for it.

If I were a casino manager I'd forget the turn, forget trying to eliminate asymmetric cards, and just focus on basic skills on the part of game protection personnel. That way, you can always catch semi-sharp approaches like the one Ivey used and get a freeroll with their money at the same time.

I say that as an AP safe in the knowledge that's about as likely to happen as the return of full-pay SD blackjack games dealt to the bottom.
FleaStiff
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May 24th, 2013 at 10:20:45 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Clearly a scam was pulled.
... and to put ALL pit personnel on notice that you take NO "seemingly benign request" to perform any "silly voodoo tricks" by request - like a freaking DJ - from any player on any live game's cards, dice, or procedures.


Thats it. If it had been done in English it might not have happened, but in Cantonese it did happen. I've likened it to the utterly untrained carnival games dealer who was told by the players that Deuces were Wild. Casinos have to train their personnel better and in the high limit games of high stakes gambling the personnel really have to know what they are doing.

And an "Inspector" (in the UK, Floor Person in the USA) leaving the room because of some Feng She "uncomfortableness" of a player is utterly absurd.

Well, maybe this horse is dead...maybe not.... but when the case comes to court I think it will breathe one final whinney.
GBV
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May 24th, 2013 at 10:23:34 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Query: Was Phil Ivey doing this or was he merely a "front man" with the Cantonese speaking Asian Woman from Las Vegas being the actual mastermind? She is the one alleged to have a known history of edge sorting experience in casinos and I doubt she and Ivey just wandered into Crockfords on a date or something.

Phil Ivey had the reputation and persona and skills... but it may have been that he was the front man.



I doubt it was either.

When you are working this type of operation as team manager are not going to step out of the shadows, ever. You locate a vulnerability, recruit a gorilla big player with a high profile, make the money, take a percentage and then move on. Rinse and repeat.
If any one ever knows you exist you fucked-up big time. I never even allowed the gorilla to see my face.

This was a multi-million dollar play. You know what's cooler than a million dollars....
FleaStiff
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May 24th, 2013 at 1:51:17 PM permalink
Quote: GBV

This was a multi-million dollar play. You know what's cooler than a million dollars....

Yeah...two million dollars.
You just may be right about this... and perhaps someone in the shadows had a chat, in Cantonese or in Baseball Bat, with that dealer. I don't know. Remember, it was quite some time ago but it was in London that an Oriental couple were brutally tortured and murdered because their cell phone malfunctioned when they were supposed to phone in the results of a goal kick during a "live" broadcast that was actually delayed by about a minute and a half is some parts of the world. Oriental phone calls, Ukrainian computers... and death.
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