AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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September 16th, 2019 at 9:52:20 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Warning -- profanity.

After seeing this warning and seeing Maxpen get the ban hammer. I think we're going to have to have an early warning system in place when the sheriff is back in town looking for someone to Lynch.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
bobbartop
bobbartop
Joined: Mar 15, 2016
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September 16th, 2019 at 10:09:03 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

After seeing this warning and seeing Maxpen get the ban hammer. I think we're going to have to have an early warning system in place when the sheriff is back in town looking for someone to Lynch.




A "supper triangle".
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Thanks for this post from:
Rigondeauxbeachbumbabs
September 16th, 2019 at 10:32:34 PM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

A "supper triangle".

Oh man, I just wanted to have a Wizard Warning System Alert. I didn't want to cause a PokerGrinder/GWAE stampede.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
kubikulann
kubikulann
Joined: Jun 28, 2011
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September 17th, 2019 at 1:33:04 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

Quote: TigerWu

All of those betting systems work in theory, but casinos have maximum limits and people have maximum bankrolls. That's what's keeping them from working in the real world.



Even with infinite bankroll and infinite table limits, all betting systems on negative games of independent trials are still -EV even in theory. Of course, in practice, with infinite limits and infinite credit, you could devise a system with an arbitrarily small probability of ever booking a loss in a lifetime of gambling. However, given infinite funds there would be far better investment opportunities --- disregarding the idea that with infinite funds any win you book doesn't increase your bankroll.

Imagine an infinite bankroll.
What use is a martingale or other betting system ?

Any loss isn’t actually a loss, it does not reduce your BR. The same for wins.
If (but for what reason?) the guy wants to end a session positive, there is no reason to just double the wager. Since any wager, no matter how big, has the same zero net value to him, he can freely triple, quintuple, decuple it...
Buy the casino... even that represents no cost. Buy the entire world!

To cut it short: in the case of infinite bankroll, +EV and -EV lose all meaning.
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 17th, 2019 at 1:50:14 AM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

Quote: sodawater

Quote: TigerWu

All of those betting systems work in theory, but casinos have maximum limits and people have maximum bankrolls. That's what's keeping them from working in the real world.



Even with infinite bankroll and infinite table limits, all betting systems on negative games of independent trials are still -EV even in theory. Of course, in practice, with infinite limits and infinite credit, you could devise a system with an arbitrarily small probability of ever booking a loss in a lifetime of gambling. However, given infinite funds there would be far better investment opportunities --- disregarding the idea that with infinite funds any win you book doesn't increase your bankroll.

Imagine an infinite bankroll.
What use is a martingale or other betting system ?

Any loss isn’t actually a loss, it does not reduce your BR. The same for wins.
If (but for what reason?) the guy wants to end a session positive, there is no reason to just double the wager. Since any wager, no matter how big, has the same zero net value to him, he can freely triple, quintuple, decuple it...
Buy the casino... even that represents no cost. Buy the entire world!

To cut it short: in the case of infinite bankroll, +EV and -EV lose all meaning.

I believe the reason people keep claiming it will work with an infinite bank-roll and infinite limits is because to them they believe if that's the case it's technically a winning system and should be treated as one thinking that will work on a smaller scale.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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September 17th, 2019 at 1:52:16 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

You're giving your money away to play a game.
EDIT: And also to get some booze. I probably drank $100 worth of cognac "for free" last time I was in Vegas.


Yes its a game but the allure is the money or to be more precise the 'winnings' which we are certain will be our fate while the ordinary chumps face that dreaded negative expectation.
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
Joined: May 8, 2015
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September 17th, 2019 at 5:14:03 AM permalink
an interesting question (to me)



if you had an infinite bankroll and you won money would you then have more?...............................assuming there are others that have some money you could win from



how could you have more since you already had an infinite amount?




is there such a thing as infinity plus one?
𝘈𝘭𝘭 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘦 𝘴𝘦𝘦 𝘰𝘳 𝘴𝘦𝘦𝘮 - 𝘪𝘴 𝘣𝘶𝘵 𝘢 𝘥𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘮 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯 𝘢 𝘥𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘮.........Poe
kubikulann
kubikulann
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September 17th, 2019 at 5:19:26 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

an interesting question (to me)

if you had an infinite bankroll and you won money would you then have more?

Even more interesting:
If Carlos Slim or Warren Buffett wins $1000, do they really have ‘more’? What in the world can they do now that they couldn’t before?
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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September 17th, 2019 at 5:49:33 AM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

Even more interesting:
If Carlos Slim or Warren Buffett wins $1000, do they really have ‘more’? What in the world can they do now that they couldn’t before?



I agree in theory.

And yet super rich seem to always be extremely stingy, entitled people (rich get more free stuff and pampering than any people collecting welfare) and are constantly looking for ways to raise profits and lower their personal taxes.

Not the actions of people unconcerned about their finances
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
TigerWu
TigerWu
Joined: May 23, 2016
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September 17th, 2019 at 8:48:04 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

no they wouldn't. You're telling me if you could play Donkey Kong for a quarter or a dollar on the same machine in the same venue, rich people would choose the dollar? No way.



Yes. Otherwise rich people would never buy fancy cars or yachts or fly first class or private jets or buy huge homes, because they can accomplish all of those goals (i.e., transportation and shelter) for way cheaper. That's what rich people do - they spend more money because they can. They're going to spend a dollar playing Donkey Kong because THEY can, and YOU can't, because they're rich and we're just peasants.

Quote:

If there were greater benefits... there are no greater benifits to playing gambling games for more money, outside of gambling for more money.



Comps. The more money you risk, the more you get comped.

Quote:

You are saying that you just want to play the game itself. In that case, you'd want to play as cheaply as possible.



I like how you're trying to tell me how I enjoy playing my games.

Quote:

Nobody wants to play PG or bac with you because the point of those games is gambling.



And gambling is fun.

Quote:

There isn't some unique property that just happens to apply to every casino game, where nobody wants to play it except for money. The point of the games is gambling. People go to casinos to gamble. They might enjoy the games too, but that is secondary 99% of the time.



Yeah, they go to gamble, but also for the atmosphere. If I wanted to "just gamble," I don't need to go to Vegas. I can stay in Oklahoma and play in the local Indian casinos. Hell, I don't even need to leave my house. I could just invite friends over to gamble, or play at an online casino.

Quote:

Plus... look, you are saying people like to play slots or PGP or whatever SO SO SOOOOOO much that they are willining to lose 1000s of dollars on them just for the joy of the game, when they could play bridge or facebook slots, or checkers online, or words with friends, or any one of a million other games for free.



You act like gambling games and non-gambling games are mutually exclusive. Plenty of people play both. Plenty of people willingly lose money at gambling games because it's fun, and they play non-gambling games because those interactions are fun, too.

Quote:

But, at the same time, nobody is willing to play the casino games for free.



Says who? I do it all the time.

Quote:

So you just have to go pay a ton of money to play them.



...and I do that, too, because it's fun, and a totally different experience.

Quote:

That don't make no sense.



Okay, well, if you don't "get it," we'll just have to agree to disagree. You're trying to make this into way too much of a black and white issue.

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