Mission146
Mission146
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TDVegas
May 25th, 2021 at 10:24:57 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Where is “around here”?

I’m in Vegas.

In Nevada..among the big 3 (Las Vegas, Reno and Lake Tahoe)....why Laughlin wasn’t included, I don’t know. It’s around 20%...give or take a percentage or so. Now, this was a bunch of years ago and is the ONLY known study of gamblers who smoke. My guess is today’s numbers are lower. Among rural locations it runs a bunch higher, but that is based on a much smaller count of gamblers. I think that number was running around 35%.

If your casino is running 50%....and I take anecdotal reporting with a grain of salt (no insult intended), that’s an EXTREMELY high number. Crisakes, are they giving everyone a pack when they come thru the door? I would question a 50% count even in rural places like Tonapah, West Wendover or Elko.



Pennsylvania and West Virginia casinos, mostly, but not entirely. Ohio is 100% non-smoking for casinos, except those areas that are technically outdoors. I think same thing with Maryland and the, "Technically outdoors," areas, but I'm not 100% sure. I know the smoking room at Rocky Gap is extremely tiny. I recall that you have to go through two doors to get to it, which, if recollection serves, suffices to make it technically outdoors.

You'd also have to look at the general times that I am in casinos, which are mostly the slower hours or average hours. The hardcore gamblers, mostly. I don't care to have competition and like to be in and out when it comes to vulturing, so I just go and do a pass when I don't have competition---or it's much less likely. Mostly vacant machines, no waiting, enough plays/EV to be satisfactory for me relative to time spend. (Which means not a ton, but my standards are lower than others.)

Lots of social security checks at the beginning of the month in these areas, especially one casino in particular, so lots of smokers. It really does seem to be about 50/50 in one casino in particular especially, but I'm not claiming to have done an official headcount to the man.

I also qualified, "Damn near," so I left room for it to be a little under 50% smokers.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Dieter
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Mission146
May 25th, 2021 at 10:39:29 AM permalink
Quote: daveyandersen1

I don't try to come on to women at a casino anyway.. SOO that cAN'T BE THE REASON,,,HOW ABOUT THAT Deiter



Preemptive strike. Ounce of prevention, pound of cure.
Lighting a cigarette and exhaling may be easier for her than singing "My name is no, my sign is no, my number is no".
May the cards fall in your favor.
Calder
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TDVegasMission146
May 25th, 2021 at 10:41:47 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

...I don't know where you're playing, but around here, the smoker/non-smoker distribution in casinos is damn near 50/50...



Yeah, that strikes me as a high. One or two heavy smokers pollute a lot of air space.

At 50%, the stick would have trouble calling the roll.
TDVegas
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Mission146
May 25th, 2021 at 10:49:05 AM permalink
Quote: Calder

Yeah, that strikes me as a high. One or two heavy smokers pollute a lot of air space.

At 50%, the stick would have trouble calling the roll.


Ooof. Imagine that haze?

The Dottys slot parlors here are akin to a chemical plant chimney...but I don’t even think they are 50%. The one time I walked by I was met with a wall of smoke stench. It’s generally saloon Sally’s in there, more smoke wrinkles than a crumbled piece of laundry...dropping off their social security checks.
Mission146
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linksjunkie
May 25th, 2021 at 10:58:44 AM permalink
Quote: Calder

Yeah, that strikes me as a high. One or two heavy smokers pollute a lot of air space.

At 50%, the stick would have trouble calling the roll.



On average, there are zero people playing Craps when I am there. Rounding down, of course.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Gandler
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May 25th, 2021 at 3:14:47 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Most people I see asking this are already tapping the cigarette out of the pack as they ask. Cigarette about to be lit at table...”you guys mind if I smoke”? Cue eye roll.



Here is my thing. Let me start by saying there is nobody more polite than me, and I almost always abide by reasonable requests to not smoke (even if legally entitled to), the exception would be if somebody is being a jerk about it.

However, if you are at a smoking table (in a smoking section), you should be prepared to be exposed to second hand smoke. If you are in a smoking section and somebody asks if you mind if they smoke they are already going above and beyond. Your rights to not be exposed to smoke in a smoking area are zero. Most people, like myself, are polite and will ask (unless others are already smoking), but there is no obligation to do so.

Once I was in a casino smoking lounge in AC (literally just table, chairs and ashtrays, and massive signs on the door that you are entering a ventilated smoking lounge, they are vestibules from when AC was briefly 100% nonsmoking -indoor smoking lounges were allowed in casino buildings as long as no gaming activities were inside and staff could not enter- you can still find a couple at some casinos that were around then even though smoking areas are reallowed on the floor.... of course this ban only lasted a month so they quickly became useless and often empty....) with a friend to smoke and talk about something and some couple comes in with drinks and asks if we (well to be fair it was just me smoking) could step outside to smoke. Its like people do not read signs on the massive sealed doors.... Now this is an extreme example (there is no reason a nonsmoker should enter a sealed smoking room and get offended that people are smoking at a table -table meaning table and chairs not a gaming table-), but you can make the same case for smoking sections of the building. This is one scenario where I just politely said "no, you have over 75% of the building already, and the sole use of this room is designed for smoking" or something like that....

At the end of the day, this is something that should be decided by consumers. If most people want non-smoking casinos would naturally become either be nonsmoking, or mostly non-smoking (with smoking only allowed in very limited areas)..... Casinos pay a lot of people a lot of money to study what makes them the most money (probably even more than most industries). If smoking was as negative for their image or even thought to be as people here are making it out to be, it would be long gone. Smokers tend to gamble more in general and tend to spend more during sessions, so it makes sense that they will cater to them.

As for me, once things renormalize, I will probably go back to smoking a few cigarettes or cigars a year at casinos if its still legal (which it likely will be), and enjoy it as part of the experience, and I do not think that anything is wrong with this (everything in moderation etc...).
TDVegas
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Mission146
May 25th, 2021 at 5:07:58 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

Here is my thing. Let me start by saying there is nobody more polite than me, and I almost always abide by reasonable requests to not smoke (even if legally entitled to), the exception would be if somebody is being a jerk about it.

However, if you are at a smoking table (in a smoking section), you should be prepared to be exposed to second hand smoke. If you are in a smoking section and somebody asks if you mind if they smoke they are already going above and beyond. Your rights to not be exposed to smoke in a smoking area are zero. Most people, like myself, are polite and will ask (unless others are already smoking), but there is no obligation to do so.

Once I was in a casino smoking lounge in AC (literally just table, chairs and ashtrays, and massive signs on the door that you are entering a ventilated smoking lounge, they are vestibules from when AC was briefly 100% nonsmoking -indoor smoking lounges were allowed in casino buildings as long as no gaming activities were inside and staff could not enter- you can still find a couple at some casinos that were around then even though smoking areas are reallowed on the floor.... of course this ban only lasted a month so they quickly became useless and often empty....) with a friend to smoke and talk about something and some couple comes in with drinks and asks if we (well to be fair it was just me smoking) could step outside to smoke. Its like people do not read signs on the massive sealed doors.... Now this is an extreme example (there is no reason a nonsmoker should enter a sealed smoking room and get offended that people are smoking at a table -table meaning table and chairs not a gaming table-), but you can make the same case for smoking sections of the building. This is one scenario where I just politely said "no, you have over 75% of the building already, and the sole use of this room is designed for smoking" or something like that....

At the end of the day, this is something that should be decided by consumers. If most people want non-smoking casinos would naturally become either be nonsmoking, or mostly non-smoking (with smoking only allowed in very limited areas)..... Casinos pay a lot of people a lot of money to study what makes them the most money (probably even more than most industries). If smoking was as negative for their image or even thought to be as people here are making it out to be, it would be long gone. Smokers tend to gamble more in general and tend to spend more during sessions, so it makes sense that they will cater to them.

As for me, once things renormalize, I will probably go back to smoking a few cigarettes or cigars a year at casinos if its still legal (which it likely will be), and enjoy it as part of the experience, and I do not think that anything is wrong with this (everything in moderation etc...).


Typically, yes...consumers would decide or be the impetus for change. The only problem? That’s not what we did when we banned smoking in work places, malls, stadiums and just about anywhere the public gathered. There was a conscious decision by lawmakers along with the surgeon general and about a gazillion other health organizations extolling the perils of allowing smoking. So, there was no vote. There was no consensus. The government simply acted in the name of public health.

Yes, I agree with you. If you are in a smoking venue you are under ZERO obligation to get a “vibe” from others about your smoking. My contention is it’s generally a waste of time to ask. They know you are fully within your right and most (99%, IMO) will not tell you “don’t smoke”....even though they would prefer you didn’t.

The problem with consensus is it would work. 80% on the floor don’t smoke. Put it to a vote?? YES, YES, YES.

It will never happen because, as former MGM CEO alluded....the Asian whales would balk at a smoking ban. So, effectively for every 1,000 ploppies who said “no smoking”....one deep pocketed whale says “yes smoking”. Guess who wins?
Gandler
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Mission146
May 25th, 2021 at 6:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Typically, yes...consumers would decide or be the impetus for change. The only problem? That’s not what we did when we banned smoking in work places, malls, stadiums and just about anywhere the public gathered. There was a conscious decision by lawmakers along with the surgeon general and about a gazillion other health organizations extolling the perils of allowing smoking. So, there was no vote. There was no consensus. The government simply acted in the name of public health.

Yes, I agree with you. If you are in a smoking venue you are under ZERO obligation to get a “vibe” from others about your smoking. My contention is it’s generally a waste of time to ask. They know you are fully within your right and most (99%, IMO) will not tell you “don’t smoke”....even though they would prefer you didn’t.

The problem with consensus is it would work. 80% on the floor don’t smoke. Put it to a vote?? YES, YES, YES.

It will never happen because, as former MGM CEO alluded....the Asian whales would balk at a smoking ban. So, effectively for every 1,000 ploppies who said “no smoking”....one deep pocketed whale says “yes smoking”. Guess who wins?



You are probably right, it generally is a waste of time (unless you are with somebody who is outspoken and willing to say I would prefer if you do not smoke). But, its more of a I guess what you would call "routine politeness", like offering your friend a cigarette as you open a pack even if you know he will refuse, or offering somebody some of your chips or whatever. Its more of a throat clearing measure so you don't feel bad about consuming something in front of somebody else. I think most people generally appreciate it. For example, I do not chew gum, but it is always nice when somebody offers (to be refused) a piece when they pull out a pack, its just a general courtesy type thing, even if it is meant to be mostly self-serving.

But, I also agree that money always wins out. I think nonsmoking casino will naturally spread (perhaps slower than you wish). But, I think there will always be a market for smoking casinos (unless the government nullifies that). And, its not just whales from foreign countries where smoking is still normal (though that is a major factor). Many Americans who gamble heavily (and routinely) tend to smoke, this is in part due to them being older (without being too offensive or playing into stereotypes, we all know the image of the older lady chain smoking cigarettes at the slot machine). Many people who gamble also smoke. And, for many (especially machine players), this can almost be trance-like, and casinos would hate to interrupt this with forcing people to leave the machine to walk outside (or even to a designated room inside) to smoke. I would imagine that both of these would change old time, as time passes and the attitude in smoking in certain countries changes, and the old guard in American casinos change. But, it will be a slow transition (if it happens naturally and is not banned by force).

But, as for your point, if 80% of the floor does not smoke, but most of those 80% are not gambling to the extent of the 20%, that goes right back to the bind that you mentioned. If 15-20% of your customers contribute 55-60% of your revenue, you are not going to want to lose that 20%.....

For me personally I would be just fine if all casinos went non smoking (I would want it to happen naturally, not by force or law), but I think it is a fun aspect of casinos that I will not feel guilty of enjoying. In many ways its like stepping back in time, one of the only places you can indulge in many vices and not be judged (or at least not judged harshly). Even when I do not smoke, I like the fact that there are smokers around me, don't ask me why, it just adds to the ambiance. I also have never been bothered by second hand smoke at all, so I cannot personally empathize with people who seem to think its the end of time (there are some colognes that I find more annoying than second hand smoke).

I am not sure what you mean by there as no vote and no consensus. The Surgeon General's statements and warnings were not law, but an advisory. There is no Federal smoking bans (other than airlines and some federal properties). All smoking bans are either State or Local (all of which happened by vote, the State cannot just ban smoking without legislation). The government "acted" by putting out information and allowing States and localities to make their own choice (there are still some States and Territories with no smoking bans). This is why in some States you can still smoke in schools, and other States you cannot smoke in outdoor parks...

As far as NJ is concerned, I think the current law is fine. And, I think AC's local ordinance of 75/25 is a very fair compromise for all. I know that you disagree, and that is fine, but I would prefer that people who want smoking banned petition casinos that they frequent to change their policies versus try to do a blanket ban across the State, because one-size fits all solutions rarely work on such sensitive topics.
Mission146
Mission146
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May 26th, 2021 at 7:58:43 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Typically, yes...consumers would decide or be the impetus for change. The only problem? That’s not what we did when we banned smoking in work places, malls, stadiums and just about anywhere the public gathered. There was a conscious decision by lawmakers along with the surgeon general and about a gazillion other health organizations extolling the perils of allowing smoking. So, there was no vote. There was no consensus. The government simply acted in the name of public health.

Yes, I agree with you. If you are in a smoking venue you are under ZERO obligation to get a “vibe” from others about your smoking. My contention is it’s generally a waste of time to ask. They know you are fully within your right and most (99%, IMO) will not tell you “don’t smoke”....even though they would prefer you didn’t.

The problem with consensus is it would work. 80% on the floor don’t smoke. Put it to a vote?? YES, YES, YES.

It will never happen because, as former MGM CEO alluded....the Asian whales would balk at a smoking ban. So, effectively for every 1,000 ploppies who said “no smoking”....one deep pocketed whale says “yes smoking”. Guess who wins?



In some places, there is a vote:

https://ballotpedia.org/Ohio_Smoking_Ban,_Initiative_5_(2006)

If the public votes on a ban in any jurisdiction of any size (except national) and the Government simply enforces the public's will, then I am also more than happy with that. I highly encourage a public vote. That is terrific regardless of the result, however inevitable.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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May 26th, 2021 at 8:02:10 AM permalink
One thing that I would add to Gandler's post is this:

I would assume, based on how few casinos are non-smoking of their own accord, two things:

1.) The casinos think that they will lose the business of some smokers if they go non-smoking. (I'd hope this can be generally accepted as at least partially true)

2.) The casinos know that the complaining non-smokers are going to keep coming back anyway. They probably also tend to think going non-smoking isn't going to get them anyone they don't already have.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

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