BorkaBorka
BorkaBorka
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October 26th, 2014 at 9:34:45 AM permalink
[Redacted]
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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October 26th, 2014 at 9:43:43 AM permalink
The good thing about banging your head against the wall is it feels good when you stop.

STOP!

Upper management is going to do what they are going to do. All the math explanations in the world are not going to make them see reality. Just DUAD, move on if you find a better place, and go with the flow. It is not just the casino industry that is run by such people.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
BorkaBorka
BorkaBorka
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October 26th, 2014 at 9:53:07 AM permalink
[Redacted]
pokerface
pokerface
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October 26th, 2014 at 9:58:57 AM permalink
Smart players and even smarter casino management!
That's all I can say.
winning streaks come and go, losing streak never ends.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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October 26th, 2014 at 10:03:46 AM permalink
Deal as directed.
I am a robot.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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October 26th, 2014 at 4:23:26 PM permalink
There is no "Double-zero" that can make both the Player and Banker bets lose. A tie pushes both bets, and you said a Banker-Six gets paid half-time. Either way, the most the player ever stands to lose or win in your situation is below the table minimum.

The casino is exercising good business sense to disallow that play. If they recently raised the table minimum from $10 to $20, I'm assuming it's because the table is overly busy, and they want to weed out the lower-roller players.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
RS
RS
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October 26th, 2014 at 4:30:55 PM permalink
deleted
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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October 26th, 2014 at 5:35:39 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

There is no "Double-zero" that can make both the Player and Banker bets lose. A tie pushes both bets, and you said a Banker-Six gets paid half-time. Either way, the most the player ever stands to lose or win in your situation is below the table minimum.

The casino is exercising good business sense to disallow that play. If they recently raised the table minimum from $10 to $20, I'm assuming it's because the table is overly busy, and they want to weed out the lower-roller players.

So if the players bet 1000 on banker and 1010 on player you wouldn't let them play because they are only risking $10.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
sc15
sc15
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October 26th, 2014 at 5:57:12 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

There is no "Double-zero" that can make both the Player and Banker bets lose. A tie pushes both bets, and you said a Banker-Six gets paid half-time. Either way, the most the player ever stands to lose or win in your situation is below the table minimum.

The casino is exercising good business sense to disallow that play. If they recently raised the table minimum from $10 to $20, I'm assuming it's because the table is overly busy, and they want to weed out the lower-roller players.



You're an idiot if you really don't understand how the house edge works in this situation.

In fact, if I were running the casino I would welcome this play. They're paying me my house edge for $50 in action for only $10 worth of variance.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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October 26th, 2014 at 7:28:41 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

So if the players bet 1000 on banker and 1010 on player you wouldn't let them play because they are only risking $10.


Let's see what we have here.

B 1000 win - Win 950
P 1010 lose - Lose 1010 = Lose $60

B 1000 lose - Lose 1000
P 1010 win - Win 1010 = Win $10

The house has an opportunity to win at least the table minimum in that situation. At that level, you allow the play, provided you find someone foolhardy enough to lay 6:1 odds on a hand of Baccarat.

The OP mentioned $30 and $20. Let's look at that.

B 30 win - Win 28.50
P 20 lose - Lose 20.00 = Win $8.50

B 30 lose - Lose 30
P 20 win - Win 20 = Lose $10

B 20 win - Win 19
P 30 lose - Lose 30 = Lose $11

B 20 lose - Lose 20
P 30 win - Win 30 = Win $10

In these situations, the house does not have a chance to win at least the table min, and the odds are more even than in the extreme case you mentioned above.

Yes, the house gets its commission with less variance, which is a good thing. The key here in my mind is still that the table min was recently increased. To me, that means that the table is busy, and seats are at a premium. As a casino, you don't want min-bet players, and in this case less-than-min-bet players, locking up seats while potentially higher-rollers have to stand back and wait for a seat to open up. If it's dead, maybe allow it, but at least on a busy night, I stand by not allowing the play on the $20 table mentioned in the OP.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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October 26th, 2014 at 7:34:20 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Let's see what we have here.

B 1000 win - Win 950
P 1010 lose - Lose 1010 = Lose $60

B 1000 lose - Lose 1000
P 1010 win - Win 1010 = Win $10

The house has an opportunity to win at least the table minimum in that situation. At that level, you allow the play, provided you find someone foolhardy enough to lay 6:1 odds on a hand of Baccarat.

The OP mentioned $30 and $20. Let's look at that.

B 30 win - Win 28.50
P 20 lose - Lose 20.00 = Win $8.50

B 30 lose - Lose 30
P 20 win - Win 20 = Lose $10

B 20 win - Win 19
P 30 lose - Lose 30 = Lose $11

B 20 lose - Lose 20
P 30 win - Win 30 = Win $10

In these situations, the house does not have a chance to win at least the table min, and the odds are more even than in the extreme case you mentioned above. I stand by not allowing the play on the $20 table mentioned in the OP.
I can only hope that you are a casino manager.

The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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October 26th, 2014 at 7:36:39 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I can only hope that you are a casino manager.



I edited my post with an additional point at the end that is relevant to this discussion.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
sc15
sc15
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October 26th, 2014 at 8:42:08 PM permalink
Actually it's real simple and you're wrong.

Let's say the house edge is 1% (just using round numbers for simplicity).

If someone bets $20. The house makes 20 cents / hand.

If someone bets $20 on 1 spot, $30 on another spot, the house makes 50 cents / hand.
MrLeft
MrLeft
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October 27th, 2014 at 1:28:08 AM permalink
A clearer way of looking at this is the classic $55 on Black and $50 on Red example in roulette. Simpler to see because the house commission is essentially the "zero" for both numbers. Most of the time there is a $5 win or loss .. but when the ZERO comes out the player loses $105 instead of just $5. It's only one out of 37 or 38 spins (let's assume a single zero 37 number table) .. those one/37 spins add up big in the long term! As the casino theoretical take is $105 per 37 spins instead of just $5 per 37 spins. Colossal difference for both sides of the table in the long run! lol

I don't have baccarat .. but know enough about the game to tell you that like Black Jack .. the house edge is somewhat hidden and not really obvious. The reality is that one side wins about 52% of the time but you pay a 5% commission taking your actual win below below 50% .. and the other side only wins 48% of the time so no commission is needed.

It's similar for craps with Pass / Don't Pass!


When looking at bets like that management should know that the bets are essentially separate .. and you add the absolute values of theoretical rake (you don't subtract the difference). As I don't know too much about Baccarat I'm not sure about the specific odds in question .. but as long as the casino still makes an after promotion theoretical profit on each bet independently, then they are idiots for refusing the bets!
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
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October 27th, 2014 at 2:40:25 AM permalink
Quote: sc15

You're an idiot if you really don't understand how the house edge works in this situation.

In fact, if I were running the casino I would welcome this play. They're paying me my house edge for $50 in action for only $10 worth of variance.



Personal insult. 3 days.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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October 27th, 2014 at 3:34:50 AM permalink
After having the evening to think it over, I've changed my stance. A few of you (not sc15, but thanks for the name calling) have explained it very well. The fact that commission for a much larger wager than your "effective" wager is taken on banker wins is a nice coup for the house.

B $10 win - Win $9.50.

B $30 win - Win $28.50
P $20 win - lose $20 = Win $8.50 = 15% commission. And it goes up from there.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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October 27th, 2014 at 3:49:28 AM permalink
regarding the name calling, to use the word "you" ["you're" in this case] sometimes makes it unfortunately unclear who you the OP is referring to.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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October 27th, 2014 at 7:39:47 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Deal as directed.

Dummy Up and Deal. Its not your job to do anything else but dummy up and deal.

And its a great way for you to relax about it.
kubikulann
kubikulann
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October 28th, 2014 at 1:07:27 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: sc15

You're an idiot if you really don't understand how the house edge works in this situation.

Personal insult. 3 days.

Come on, Babs. He said "you're an idiot if you really don't..." I understand this as "don't play the idiot, we know you are not really". OK, correctly he should have written "you would be an idiot if you really didn't..." but in the heat of conversation, nobody does that.

Let not the WoV forum become a church or something...
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
RS
RS
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October 28th, 2014 at 1:17:21 PM permalink
sc15 is stating a truth. Does deucekies not get banned for trolling? Either he is trolling or he is an idiot (I'm saying he's trolling if he's not an idiot)....and since he's not an idiot (according to BBB), then he must be trolling.


The casino shouldn't care about being able to win table min or not. After all, the casino can also lose $$ equal to the player's bet if the player wins.

Anyone who has a casino-sized bankroll would bank a 20/30 bet on bacarrat or even 1000/1010. Only an idiot wouldn't bank those bets.

BBB,
I'm not calling anyone an idiot, I'm just saying what an idiot would do.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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October 28th, 2014 at 5:59:23 PM permalink
Quote: RS

sc15 is stating a truth. Does deucekies not get banned for trolling? Either he is trolling or he is an idiot (I'm saying he's trolling if he's not an idiot)....and since he's not an idiot (according to BBB), then he must be trolling.



I'm insulted by this as well. I realized my error on the topic and addressed it.

This is a discussion board. We're here to discuss. Someone who is mistaken does not have to be an idiot or a troll. I'd like to think my post history would indicate enough competency to earn me the benefit of the doubt, so to be referred to as a troll is an insult.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
darkoz
darkoz
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October 28th, 2014 at 6:17:31 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

I'm insulted by this as well. I realized my error on the topic and addressed it.

This is a discussion board. We're here to discuss. Someone who is mistaken does not have to be an idiot or a troll. I'd like to think my post history would indicate enough competency to earn me the benefit of the doubt, so to be referred to as a troll is an insult.



I say RS be banned for six days.

Three days for calling Deucekies a possible Troll and three days for calling him a possible idiot
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
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October 28th, 2014 at 7:23:13 PM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

Come on, Babs. He said "you're an idiot if you really don't..." I understand this as "don't play the idiot, we know you are not really". OK, correctly he should have written "you would be an idiot if you really didn't..." but in the heat of conversation, nobody does that.

Let not the WoV forum become a church or something...



1. People have been banned several times specifically for calling other people "idiots". The links are in the list. The precedent was set, and not by me.
2. The membership has an expectation of consistency whenever possible. That's a tough standard to meet, but in this case it would be inconsistent for me not to apply the same standard to the same word usage re: sc15's ban.
3. RS's comments were in discussion of what got said. He is technically in default of the same standard, but in context and with the disclaimer that he's discussing the infraction (despite his phrasing) I'm stopping at a warning. Do not make personal accusations or insults here, sir.
4. Deucekies was not, in my opinion, trolling the thread; he was stuck on a wrong understanding/line of reasoning and suddenly the light dawned. Been there, done that, and it's clear in the thread that's what happened. Hard to have a discussion containing a difference of opinion when everybody's claiming the other side's trolling, so I'm not willing to take that stance in this case.
5. Not a church. But people can have manners. There are plenty of forums that tolerate snide, abusive, personal insults. This one doesn't. Each member can choose for themselves where they prefer to participate.

I will also mention that I was on vacation from this forum for a few days, but received a complaint so signed in to address it that day. The fact that there was a complaint factors into whether there would be a suspension, because I agree it was marginal. Some folks on here would not have cared about the phrasing, others would and did, and the language itself has been deemed a suspension offense.

I'm moving on, and I hope that the rest of you will as well.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AceTwo
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October 31st, 2014 at 2:32:32 PM permalink
I am never suprised by the ignorance of Casino Management of basic math and the wrong decisions like this that effect negatively their profits.
Based on this, the opposit should actually be promoted in Baccarat and in other games like say roulette (on even money bets).
You increase your minimum bet limits, the player is apprehensive in playing the higher bets and the friendly dealer tells the player this big 'secret' of how actually to keep on playing (or risking) the same money as before.
You increase the bet limits by 50% and with this 'secret' advise you increase the Turnover by 250% and the player is still happy because he thing he is still only risking the $20 previous lower limit.

That's about the best advise a casino can get of how to increase the amounts that people bet with them being happy believing that they are still beting lower amounts. It should Number One Topic in Casino Management 101 course.
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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November 3rd, 2014 at 7:29:28 PM permalink
Quote: AceTwo

I am never suprised by the ignorance of Casino Management of basic math and the wrong decisions like this that effect negatively their profits.
Based on this, the opposit should actually be promoted in Baccarat and in other games like say roulette (on even money bets).
You increase your minimum bet limits, the player is apprehensive in playing the higher bets and the friendly dealer tells the player this big 'secret' of how actually to keep on playing (or risking) the same money as before.
You increase the bet limits by 50% and with this 'secret' advise you increase the Turnover by 250% and the player is still happy because he thing he is still only risking the $20 previous lower limit.

That's about the best advise a casino can get of how to increase the amounts that people bet with them being happy believing that they are still beting lower amounts. It should Number One Topic in Casino Management 101 course.



I read somewhere that not all casino bosses are mentally incompetent. They do things like this wrong on purpose. There is a gist to an order they receive from on high. If they use discretion to deviate from the norm, and something goes wrong, they are afraid of losing their job. If they deviate and it's a success, so what? They don't care if the casino makes or loses money. They care about their job.

This is in no way, shape, or form intended to suggest that most critters are intelligent, nor even human. But the OP should just give up unless he can get every single pit boss to agree. I knew a dealer who had an issue with a dumb procedure. So he started a petition to try and foster such agreement among dealers and supervisors. He was reprimanded.
RS
RS
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November 3rd, 2014 at 11:09:55 PM permalink
Maybe it's in a different thread or the post is in this thread but is somehow hidden from my view, but I don't see any post from deuceskies addressing his error. The only thing I see is the paragraph at the bottom of page 1 (ie: seats are at a premium), which is in no way addressing his error, but is simply avoiding the fact he made an error in assessing the situation.


To me, that's like observing a card-counter make a mistake (hit 12v6 in a positive count), and when a teammate says "why'd you hit that 12v6?" instead of the player saying "I made a mistake I shouldn't have hit that hand", he essentially makes up an excuse saying "I did it for cover".


The subject is so damn simple, the more money wagered at a HE is subject to that HE, anyone who spends a decent amount of time on this forum or who is an AP should understand that concept. Babs, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from. (John says 2+2=5, Suzy tells John he's wrong and explains why, John insists 2+2=5, Phil calls John an i****, rightfully so.)

Playing both sides should be welcomed. The casino sets the limits on a game (say 1% HE) because they want to make at least 1% of a seat's action per round. At a $50 min table where someone is betting both sides, the house can either make 1% of $50 per round on that seat, or they can make 1% of $110 ($60 one side $50 on the other). It isn't how much money the house can win in a single round, it's how much they expect to win (edge) per round, because after all, the casino does take some risk when a high roller or whale sits down (high roller may win).

Betting $110 on one side or betting $60 on one and $50 on the other.....the casino is making the same $ per round (edge/expectation), but has considerably less risk with the 50/60 bettor than the 110/0 bettor [assuming both sides have the same HE).
Deucekies
Deucekies
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November 4th, 2014 at 1:27:53 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Maybe it's in a different thread or the post is in this thread but is somehow hidden from my view, but I don't see any post from deuceskies addressing his error.



Read.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
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