Craps and Roulette Regulations

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December 20th, 2010 at 11:23:05 PM permalink
focd
Member since: Sep 15, 2010
Threads: 19
Posts: 128
Quote: darkoz
I suspect that the laws were written with the idea that cards required mental decisions to be initiated by the player(e.g. to draw a card or not) and that the law itself is weakly written such that any card game with or without skills involved can be interpreted for inclusion.

Not the first time a law needs to be revised. Certainly, this law is not high on legislators plates so that is probably why it still stands.

Do not agree. There is too much money involved and a lot of lawyers/tribes are fighting to get real dice. Nevada doesn't want CA to get it. So how can this not be on the top of a short list of priorities for casinos in CA? Old news - but still interesting - http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050625/news_1n25nodice.html
December 24th, 2010 at 10:06:47 PM permalink
focd
Member since: Sep 15, 2010
Threads: 19
Posts: 128
Quote: darkoz
I suspect that the laws were written with the idea that cards required mental decisions to be initiated by the player(e.g. to draw a card or not) and that the law itself is weakly written such that any card game with or without skills involved can be interpreted for inclusion.

Hmm.... so what about Harrah's in San Diego? Wizard of Odds site says this - A bingo hopper is used, containing 76 balls, two each of every ball numbered 1 to 36 plus 0 and 00. A ball is drawn which corresponds to the spin for betting purposes. No cards are used. I'm still doubting your whole theory about why no dice are allowed because skills is required.
February 24th, 2011 at 2:58:00 PM permalink
DealerInCA
Member since: Feb 24, 2011
Threads: 0
Posts: 2
Anyone ever figure out the answer to this question?


I think there are two different things going on that are confusing a lot of people in this thread--Cardrooms and Indian Casinos.

The cardrooms all have the player-banked "skill" games (blackjack, pai gow, etc.) They don't offer any form of the "chance" games craps or roulette. they do offer baccarat, but there is a player choice that comes up occasionally whether to take another card or not and I'm guessing that's how they get around the laws. They do not offer this version of baccarat at the Indian Casinos.

So I guess the question is why can Indian Casinos offer games of chance (Baccarat) and skill (BJ), but not specifically roulette and craps. Is it a CA constitution thiing or a gaming compact thing? Does it state thery can offer games of chance as long as the ball or dice alone don't determine the outcome of the game? Aren't slot machines with an RNG games of chance too?
February 25th, 2011 at 9:21:22 AM permalink
guido111
Member since: Sep 16, 2010
Threads: 10
Posts: 707
Quote: DealerInCA
Anyone ever figure out the answer to this question?


I think there are two different things going on that are confusing a lot of people in this thread--Cardrooms and Indian Casinos.

The cardrooms all have the player-banked "skill" games (blackjack, pai gow, etc.) They don't offer any form of the "chance" games craps or roulette. they do offer baccarat, but there is a player choice that comes up occasionally whether to take another card or not and I'm guessing that's how they get around the laws. They do not offer this version of baccarat at the Indian Casinos.

So I guess the question is why can Indian Casinos offer games of chance (Baccarat) and skill (BJ), but not specifically roulette and craps. Is it a CA constitution thiing or a gaming compact thing? Does it state thery can offer games of chance as long as the ball or dice alone don't determine the outcome of the game? Aren't slot machines with an RNG games of chance too?

I can NOT find the exact law but this gets close to it for the messed up gambling laws in CA.
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/Num3Dice.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/f56c76a3-67e7-4471-88df-11ec3b6f8a93/1/hilite/
or
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/Num3Dice.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/8c3d533e-f397-43de-81a2-de76ccca648f/2/hilite/
Found at:
Bureau of Gambling Control website
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/

I think that when CA was making their rules of what could be and not in games at Indian casinos, Las Vegas casinos paid a bunch of money so craps and roulette could not be played in CA exactly as played in Nevada.
February 25th, 2011 at 10:34:03 AM permalink
98steps
Member since: Sep 14, 2010
Threads: 4
Posts: 119
As I understand it, the intention of California Law was to limnit the games to games of skill, where the players decide the outcome. However, the effect of the law was to limit gambling games to those that use cards only.

Therefore, you have Poker, Black Jack and Pai-gow which depend on player decisions as well as Baccarat, Card Craps and Card Roulette which do not.
February 25th, 2011 at 12:39:26 PM permalink
Keyser
Member since: Apr 16, 2010
Threads: 26
Posts: 1244
It could easily be argued that the live game of roulette is a game of skill. During the 80s and 90s professional wheel watchers/visual ballistic experts effectively changed the game. Millions were lost to the VB experts, forcing wheel manufacturers to redesign the wheels. During this period, more money was lost to VB players across Europe, Asia and Africa than what was lost to BJ card counters in this same region. Even in the US the VB players were decimating the live roulette wheel games.



FYI I am NOT referring to wheel bias, but rather to the skilled players that possessed the ability to predict where the ball would land based on the position of the spinning ball in relation to the spinning rotor.
February 25th, 2011 at 5:00:22 PM permalink
DealerInCA
Member since: Feb 24, 2011
Threads: 0
Posts: 2
Quote: 98steps
As I understand it, the intention of California Law was to limnit the games to games of skill, where the players decide the outcome. However, the effect of the law was to limit gambling games to those that use cards only.

Therefore, you have Poker, Black Jack and Pai-gow which depend on player decisions as well as Baccarat, Card Craps and Card Roulette which do not.


yea thats been said a lot in here about the "skill", but i think that has to do only with the cardrooms, not the indian casinos. There must be something specifically banning the dice and ball from determining the outcome of the game in the Indian gaming compacts, and I wouldn't doubt it if NV had something to do with that. Even when you read all the interviews from the Indian casino managers, they always throw in the phrase: "does not determine the outcome."
February 25th, 2011 at 5:28:30 PM permalink
7winner
Member since: May 31, 2010
Threads: 9
Posts: 198
Quote: DealerInCA
yea thats been said a lot in here about the "skill", but i think that has to do only with the cardrooms, not the indian casinos. There must be something specifically banning the dice and ball from determining the outcome of the game in the Indian gaming compacts, and I wouldn't doubt it if NV had something to do with that. Even when you read all the interviews from the Indian casino managers, they always throw in the phrase: "does not determine the outcome."


State of California
March 7, 2000 Election
Proposition 1A
Gambling on Tribal Lands

A YES vote of this measure means:
Indian tribes could legally operate slot machines and banked and percentage card games (such as twenty-one) on Indian lands in California.

Since CA law prohibits Indian casino games that use devices, like roulette wheel, dice etc. they are allowed to have card games.
Card craps and roulette.

Bureau of Gambling Control website, what an awful site to try to locate information on!
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/

I am sure also that the law was "paid for" by the Las Vegas casinos. The Indian casinos today are more interested in MORE slot machines than having Vegas style craps and roulette.

Card Craps sucks.
A machine shuffles cards.
I guess it is as close to random as it gets.
I was at one casino in CA recently that uses 36 cards that show all the dice combos, you think that would be like dice...the 3-2 came out 4 times in a row followed right by the 5-4 came out 5 times in a row.
I figure the machine just shuffles the same way every time.
Machine Randomness sucks!
7 winner chicken dinner!
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