Water heaters.

Run whatever heating system you want, - you owe absolutely no explanation to me.

Having been in Thailand and Cambodia, I've seen rural/surburan/urban "point of use" water-heating systems, as well as single-unit HVAC unit systems, to be the best solution on a cost-effective and reliability basis where electrical service is at least semi-reliable in relation to a modern country such as Mexico.

For 2 or 3 cents per shower or laundry wash, and $179 per single-instance install, it might be a good solution if electrical service is indeed reliable in your native country. But this might not be the case in some parts of Mexico, and you can tell us. It seems to be extremely effective, reliable, and efficient in Thailand, Vietnam, China, and Cambodia.

Plus, there is less carbon foot-print.

When loading and transporting Propane canisters for the very same purpose where it is more expensive, more dangerous, and more troublesome and inconvenient in terms of paying and shipping for the canister transport - (you probably burn up $6.00 in fuel and effort for it all when you think about it, forget about the human time and labor) - yet it is still a very reliable as a fuel source, and the way to - if you are living "way far off an electrical grid."

Quote: Paigowdan

Run whatever heating system you want, - you owe absolutely no explanation to me.

Well, no. But if you're going to the trouble of making recommendations, you deserve to hear why I think they're good or not.

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Having been in Thailand and Cambodia, I've seen rural/surburan/urban "point of use" water-heating systems, as well as single-unit HVAC unit systems, to be the best solution on a cost-effective and reliability basis where electrical service is at least semi-reliable in relation to a modern country such as Mexico.

Oh, the service is reliable, as in it's almost always on. It's not very reliable in quality, though, as everyone knows you need a regulated power supply w/spike suppressor built-in to protect your expensive appliances.

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For 2 or 3 cents per shower or laundry wash, and $179 per single-instance install, it might be a good solution if electrical service is indeed reliable in your native country.

Well, this is where it gets complicated. near as I can make out from my electric bill, a kilowatt-hour goes for US $0.33, and that's with the somewhat inflated exchange rate of recent days (all the pundits say it will come back down). from the numbers available at the electric company's website, it comes out to between $0.25 and $0.27.

Pricing gas is harder. The official listed price is in either kilograms or liters, but the gas bill comes in cubic meters.

In other words, I need expert help...

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But this might not be the case in some parts of Mexico, and you can tell us.

Not too long ago blackouts were frequent. I still keep a flashlight in my room at all times. I used to keep a candlestick with candle, too, but gave that up.Now blackouts are not unheard of, but they are far less frequent than they used to be. I've no idea about the rest of the country, though.

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Plus, there is less carbon foot-print.

I know that's important for some people. But I just can't take the idea seriously. Sorry.

Quote: Nareed

Well, no. But if you're going to the trouble of making recommendations, you deserve to hear why I think they're good or not.

I know.

Quote: Nareed

Oh, the service is reliable, as in it's almost always on. It's not very reliable in quality, though, as everyone knows you need a regulated power supply w/spike suppressor built-in to protect your expensive appliances.

You do need fairly perfect power for computers and electronics to prevent blowing out a chip or a TV set. But a water heater or a room heater doesn't fall into these expensive applicances catagory. If it's 10% over power or 10% under power - which is a REALLY SLOPPY and huge margin for any power supply company - no matter what the hell third-world country you're in - (if they supply power, it'll be within a 10% margin if you got power, 105V to 130V range), then the ONLY thing that can run without a blow-out is a third-world low-wattage heating decice.

Then if they even supply electricity in the first place, - then a $179 water heater or $60 room heater is exactly the third-world appliance that you give you a warm shower without care about power - before power fluctuations would knock out any other sensitive electrical device you are trying to run off from the power grid in that country.

If I were living in such conditions that couldn't support a laptop, Apple I-Phone, or WiFi access, I would still be worrying about my daily shower and shave with hot water to wash my ass and face first. Call me a spoiled American.

Cheap water heaters are designed for serious and severe "third-world service" if you are using a 1.5KW water heater to take a bath or a shave if you have power that is on.
But if you are living in these conditions, the difference between a propane canister water heater and a 110V water heater I guess is a toss up. If the roads are good enough and safe to drive six or so miles to get a canister of propane or LPG fuel without being kidnapped, then they also might have a minimum electrical serice too.

Personally, I spend about $160 a month from Nevada Power and Light (now Nevada Energy, etc.) in the city of Las Vegas for Air conditioning, an electric stove, a washer and dryer crammed into my bathroom, but the hot water comes from the condonimium assocaition fees.

If I had to also spend for hot water, I'd buy me the $179 "point-of-sevice" water heater for the shower and bathroom sink, install it in the bathroom under the sink, and be done with it. For three cents a shower or shave.

Quote: Paigowdan

I was making a recommendation; Nareed fully decides. If Nareed's house has electricity, it's just another option, and very inexpensive.
At 1.5KW for a ten-minute shower, the tankless version uses 2.5 cents of electricity, at 10c a KWH. (0.167 * 1.5KW = 0.25KWH). $179 and up to puchase a unit, plus shipping.

The average price of electricity in the USA is 11.51 cents per kWh, but it ranges from 7.58 cents/kWh in North Dakota to 20.33 cents/kWh in Connecticut (and even higher in Hawaii). Those are 2009 rates.

Quote: Nareed

Well, this is where it gets complicated. near as I can make out from my electric bill, a kilowatt-hour goes for US $0.33, and that's with the somewhat inflated exchange rate of recent days (all the pundits say it will come back down). from the numbers available at the electric company's website, it comes out to between $0.25 and $0.27..

Wikipedia says in 2008 the average in Mexico were equivalent to U.S. 10.6 cents/kWh, but they are probably higher in the city. Also rates are heavily subsidized which may end in the future. You are talking about the rates in Hawaiian Islands. In the US and Canada there is usually a fixed charge that comes with the bill (i.e. what you would pay if you used zero electricity). Maybe that is missing in Mexico. That omission would justify somewhat higher rates.

Tankless electric water heaters are often fairly expensive. The price that Paigowdan quoted of $179 is a price that I usually hear for an extremely small unit, suitable for a single washstand, and maybe a single shower that is infrequently used.

There are only very tiny American cities at the altitude of Mexico City, and gas appliances cannot achieve their maximum BTU capacity at mountain altitudes. There is special technology for efficient operation at higher altitudes.

I doubt that turning your water heater on and off is saving you money. You still have to reheat the tank. You may be creating the illusion that it is saving you money because you are taking colder showers. I think you could probably do the same thing by turning the temperature down. In the USA people used to set the water at 60 degrees centigrade, but there is a danger of scalding. It is more common to set it at 51-52 degrees centigrade now. If you can handle it a little lower than that, you will save a lot of money.

Quote: pacomartin

I doubt that turning your water heater on and off is saving you money. You still have to reheat the tank. You may be creating the illusion that it is saving you money because you are taking colder showers.

We have a time for our electric hot water heater and this has lead me to consider the only thing that truly saves you money: not using the hot water. Turning it off for short periods gives the minimal respite of recharging to maintain top temperature, yet the system at some point will still want to do just that. We have it set to turn off all night, using the reservoir of hot water for early morning, which lasts well even if someone showers. However, that all still has to be reheated and the savings are minimal, when you think about it. Savings are there though to have it turned off completely when the house is empty for a few days, and that is easier with the timer .

If 25 minutes of propane charge doesnt get yours fully heated, I would have to guess the sediments have really built up. I mean really, the propane should kick ass compared to an electric model. If you tried to get them out now I would wait until I had let the water cool down [yes the sediments of an unmaintained tank will block up the drain valve and it could be dangerous to clear in the wrong circumstances, easily avoided by not having it hot!]

THis si getting too complicated, and long.

So:

1) Currently the water heater runs only for less than one hour in the evening when I shower. I do some exercise when I get home from work, almost every day, and I shower right afterwards. If I leave it on all day, it will run for, my best guesstimate, at least a couple of hours. It turns on full power every time the water temps get low. That's the idea for saving some fuel.

2) When dividing the payment by the KwH number on the electric bill, I get the figure per KwH I quoted earlier. According to the electric comany's website it's less than that, again as quoted above. But I don't think the site includes the 16% VAT while the bill does.

3) I don't pay for gas directly, but rather through the condo board. Every month the board sends a bill, and the gas used is itemized in it both by amount and money. There's a bank of meters, one for each apaprtment, in the basement where the gas lines split up from the big tank.

4) The small electric heaters don't seem big enough for a shower. 2.5 gallons is around ten liters. I've no idea how much water I use in a 10 to 15 minute shower (longer if I have to shave my legs), but it must be well over ten liters. The only thing worse than a cold shower is a hot shower that turns cold.

5) No one's mentioned soalr heaters yet. Keep up the good work!

Quote: Nareed

5) No one's mentioned soalr heaters yet. Keep up the good work!

I thought the rooftop tanks mentioned (tinaco?) were solar powered, albeit low tech.

Quote: Nareed

4) The small electric heaters don't seem big enough for a shower. 2.5 gallons is around ten liters. I've no idea how much water I use in a 10 to 15 minute shower (longer if I have to shave my legs), but it must be well over ten liters. The only thing worse than a cold shower is a hot shower that turns cold.

In the USA the government standard for a shower head in the last 20 years has been less than 2.5 gallons / minute (or 9.5 liters / minute). Older ones could be much higher. Really old ones were set at an extremely indulgent 38 liters per minute. So you are using way over 10 liters for your shower. Paigowdown's advice is really only good for military style living. The initial investment in a per use electrical hot water device must be a lot higher than $179 to continue your habits.

The best advice is unfortunately the simplest. Purchase a shower head that gives you less than 6 liters/minute , and limit your showers to 10 minutes of running water. You can resort to the old military rule: soak yourself, then turn off the water for four minutes while you soap yourself, then wash off. That will do far more than anything you are doing by turning the tank on and off.

It is the unfortunate equivalent of the best way to lose weight, you have to eat less.

Since solar heaters don't work 100% of the time, the return on the initial investment will probably be in many years.

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Quote: Nareed

When dividing the payment by the KwH number on the electric bill, I get the figure per KwH I quoted earlier. According to the electric comany's website it's less than that, again as quoted above. But I don't think the site includes the 16% VAT while the bill does.

A bill in the USA includes:
(1) Cost to generate the electricity: 8.48 cents / kWh
(2) Cost to distribute the electricity to your house: 3.323 cents / kWh
(3) A flat charge regardless of usage: $8.75 / month

USA is one of the few countries in the world without a "Value Added Tax".

In general it sounds like the price of electricity in Mexico City is comparable to the most expensive state in the USA. But regardless of the rate, heating water by electricity is generally the most expensive option. People do it because it is easy and clean. I can't imagine that it is ever cheaper to heat water via electricity than via propane.

I suggest that you clean your system, and take shorter showers.

Quote: progrocker

I thought the rooftop tanks mentioned (tinaco?) were solar powered, albeit low tech.

Tinacos are water tanks on top of a house or building. All they do is hold water. Many are painted black, so they get warmed by sunlight, but they're not water heaters.

Quote: pacomartin

The best advice is unfortunately the simplest. Purchase a shower head that gives you less than 6 liters/minute ,

I have one. I had to remove the water-flow regulator/restrictor/thingy because it became clogged every other week. I got tired of cleaning it out witha pin (seriously), and so it's gone.

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and limit your showers to 10 minutes of running water. You can resort to the old military rule: soak yourself, then turn off the water for four minutes while you soap yourself, then wash off. That will do far more than anything you are doing by turning the tank on and off.

Are you familiar with the phrase "quality of life"? I can shower in ten minutes most times. I will not turn off the water and freeze myself in the meantime.

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In general it sounds like the price of electricity in Mexico City is comparable to the most expensive state in the USA.

What else can you expect from a government monopoly with a union?

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I suggest that you clean your system, and take shorter showers.

For all I know the system is clean, just set to a lower temperature. So I'll just try running the heater til it shuts off, however long that takes, and see how the water comes out.