Cooperation game
Poll
 | 17 votes (34%) | ||
| | 12 votes (24%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2%) | ||
| | 5 votes (10%) | ||
| | 5 votes (10%) | ||
| | 6 votes (12%) | ||
| | 3 votes (6%) | ||
| | 7 votes (14%) | ||
| | 3 votes (6%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2%) |
50 members have voted
August 16th, 2016 at 12:31:34 PM
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I am announcing a new WoV contest. It will be a 100% free-roll and banked by me, although donations will be accepted. Here are the rules.
At this point I am opening the game to players. I'll accept players until noon Pacific time, August 19, or until there are 40 players, whichever happens first. After the entry period is closed, I'll ask each player to submit his play ($1 or $2) to me by Private Message. There will be a window of about two days to submit entries.
The question for the poll is what strategy will you follow?
- During a specified period of time, every player must PM to me how much money he/she wants to win. The choices are $1 or $2.
- If more than 50% of players choose $1, then everybody will win what he/she selects.
- If 50% or more players choose $2, then everybody will win $0.
- Individual submissions will be anonymous. Totals only will be announced.
- This experiment will be repeated as long as there is sufficient interest. However, I will retain the right to put a cap on the number of players. If I do, old players will have priority.
At this point I am opening the game to players. I'll accept players until noon Pacific time, August 19, or until there are 40 players, whichever happens first. After the entry period is closed, I'll ask each player to submit his play ($1 or $2) to me by Private Message. There will be a window of about two days to submit entries.
The question for the poll is what strategy will you follow?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 16th, 2016 at 12:38:22 PM
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2 & 3 are contradictory to each other, I think..
Edit: If I were to pick $500 and everyone gets what they picked.....would I get $500? :)
Edit: If I were to pick $500 and everyone gets what they picked.....would I get $500? :)
August 16th, 2016 at 12:41:03 PM
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I'm in!
Vote for Nobody 2020!
August 16th, 2016 at 12:41:31 PM
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Quote: RS2 & 3 are contradictory to each other, I think..
Thanks, I fixed that.
Quote:Edit: If I were to pick $500 and everyone gets what they picked.....would I get $500? :)
I'll count anything other than $1 and $2 as not picking at all.
Please announce if you're in here. Do not PM me. So far we have one confirmed player -- SOOPOO.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 16th, 2016 at 12:42:52 PM
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I'm in.
Question: Can we communicate with each other and make a plan?
Question: Can we communicate with each other and make a plan?
August 16th, 2016 at 12:44:13 PM
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I'm in.
Coincidentally, I was just thinking of "Golden Balls" the other day.
Coincidentally, I was just thinking of "Golden Balls" the other day.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
August 16th, 2016 at 1:03:39 PM
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Quote:Question: Can we communicate with each other and make a plan?
Yes! It will be encouraged. I will allow for a kibitzing period before each round. In fact, the kibitzing may start now.
Players so far: SOOPOO, RS, Ayecarumba.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 16th, 2016 at 1:06:25 PM
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I'm in.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
August 16th, 2016 at 1:09:06 PM
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Ditto.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 16th, 2016 at 1:28:49 PM
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I'm in.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
August 16th, 2016 at 1:29:44 PM
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Quote: WizardYes! It will be encouraged. I will allow for a kibitzing period before each round. In fact, the kibitzing may start now.
Players so far: SOOPOO, RS, Ayecarumba.
Sounds like Anarchists are excluded?
Vote for Nobody 2020!
August 16th, 2016 at 1:41:25 PM
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A Prisoner's Dilemma freeroll? Sweet! I would love to partake, but I may not be "web capable" during the submission window. So, I will sit this one out, and hopefully wait for the next one.
BTW, anyone remember the GSN original Friend or Foe?
BTW, anyone remember the GSN original Friend or Foe?
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
August 16th, 2016 at 1:45:51 PM
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I'm in
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
August 16th, 2016 at 1:52:33 PM
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I'm in!
You serious, Clark?
August 16th, 2016 at 1:59:23 PM
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I'm in...
August 16th, 2016 at 2:11:05 PM
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Quote: WizardYes! It will be encouraged. I will allow for a kibitzing period before each round. In fact, the kibitzing may start now.
Players so far: SOOPOO, RS, Ayecarumba.
Then wouldn't it be the most wise decision for all forty people to agree that 21 will vote $1 and the remaining 19 vote $2 for a total of $59 ($1.475 each)? I feel that 40 people, ESPECIALLY ON HERE, would quickly agree to do this as long as you keep it going. Although I guess that's the point of this... To see who would ruin that dollar forth-seven for that extra fifty-three cents, if they were able to finagle a $2 bet and still win.
Last edited by: mrsuit31 on Aug 16, 2016
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August 16th, 2016 at 2:49:05 PM
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I'm in
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
August 16th, 2016 at 2:50:10 PM
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I am happily participating, as I love it when Mike has to fork over a $2 bill to me. But I think the extremely insignificant amount of money any individual can win can make players not really use any strategy and be closer to random than if 'real' money was involved. I've played on line poker for fake money, and it is almost of no value as others will call anything to see your cards. I think it is analogous.
I also will assume that it would be against the rules to, say, arrange the exact votes for all 40 players and then distribute the $59 equally.
I also will assume that it would be against the rules to, say, arrange the exact votes for all 40 players and then distribute the $59 equally.
August 16th, 2016 at 2:51:54 PM
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So I think it is an interesting experiment. However I think the experiment would end with differnt results. With 1/2 the loss is not big deal. Suppose it was 20/200 with same rules. It would put more people in a tough spot on what to pick.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
August 16th, 2016 at 2:53:01 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOI am happily participating, as I love it when Mike has to fork over a $2 bill to me. But I think the extremely insignificant amount of money any individual can win can make players not really use any strategy and be closer to random than if 'real' money was involved. I've played on line poker for fake money, and it is almost of no value as others will call anything to see your cards. I think it is analogous.
I also will assume that it would be against the rules to, say, arrange the exact votes for all 40 players and then distribute the $59 equally.
We were typing basically the same thing at the same time.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
August 16th, 2016 at 2:53:03 PM
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I'm in. Thanks Mike.
$:o)
$:o)
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
August 16th, 2016 at 2:54:08 PM
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So I think it is an interesting experiment. However I think the experiment would end with differnt results. With 1/2 the loss is not big deal. Suppose it was 20/200 with same rules. It would put more people in a tough spot on what to pick.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
August 16th, 2016 at 3:31:22 PM
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I am in!
August 16th, 2016 at 3:45:52 PM
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Will the individual selections be made public after the tally? As we are sending them via PM, and PM rules are pretty strict....
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
August 16th, 2016 at 3:56:19 PM
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Quote: GWAESo I think it is an interesting experiment. However I think the experiment would end with differnt results. With 1/2 the loss is not big deal. Suppose it was 20/200 with same rules. It would put more people in a tough spot on what to pick.
Good thinkin', although I still don't think that's enough for a proper experiment.
Mike should make it $500 / $2000 -- ya know, for more accurate experimental results....all in the name of science! Mhmmmm!
August 16th, 2016 at 3:59:01 PM
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Quote: AyecarumbaWill the individual selections be made public after the tally? As we are sending them via PM, and PM rules are pretty strict....
No. Only the tally will be made public. Submissions will only be accepted via PM. I may do an open game (where I post who picked what) another time but this game will be closed. I do reserve the right to increase the prizes in future rounds. Somebody wrote the amounts were too small to be interesting but it may be an opportunity to prove good faith for when the money gets more serious. We'll see how it goes.
13 players so far. Some people commented without actually asking to play, which I interpreted as not being interested. If that is not correct, please clarify.
Again, please don't submit your picks yet. At this point I'm only culling players and encouraging discussion.
Players thus far:
SOOPOO
RS
Ayecarumba
Hunterhill
Paigowdan
beachbumbabs
odiousgambit
blount2000
RonC
GWAE
OnceDear
Paradigm
HeyMrDJ
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 16th, 2016 at 4:30:21 PM
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Count me in.
August 16th, 2016 at 4:52:17 PM
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Oh I forgot to say I'm in after my little rant... sorry lol.
.
August 16th, 2016 at 5:15:16 PM
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1) I'm in.
2) I'm pretty certain that there was a fairly famous study about three decades ago that used a similar methodology. I can't dredge up who did the study, but I do remember that the result was skewed fairly heavily in favor of people choosing the cooperative option.
3) The real value of the study (and the concept of reciprocal altruism in general) lies in repeated iterations. Cooperation fosters more cooperation, while even a relatively small number of defections shatters the cooperative atmosphere of the group. Like Prisoner's Dilemma, a single iteration in isolated circumstances is meaningless. The Dilemma exists only if the participants don't know anything about each others' tendencies; otherwise, there are data upon which to base a decision. See: the tit-for-tat strategy in repeated iterations of Prisoner's Dilemma.
4) We're all independently minded selfish egoists here, so our results may not be generalizable to an actual human population.
5) If people choose the cooperative option, it may not be so much a sign of cooperation as a simple calculation that the utility of the first dollar is slightly greater than that of the second dollar. To illustrate, suppose that the amounts offered were actually $1 million and $2 million. Who would risk losing the first million by being greedy?
6) Though we can't do it here, I'd love to see what variations would exist by culture. You might have everyone picking $2 in Putin's Russia and everyone picking $1 in Japan, for example.
6a) In our math-challenged society, you'd have quite a few people picking amounts like $14.98.
2) I'm pretty certain that there was a fairly famous study about three decades ago that used a similar methodology. I can't dredge up who did the study, but I do remember that the result was skewed fairly heavily in favor of people choosing the cooperative option.
3) The real value of the study (and the concept of reciprocal altruism in general) lies in repeated iterations. Cooperation fosters more cooperation, while even a relatively small number of defections shatters the cooperative atmosphere of the group. Like Prisoner's Dilemma, a single iteration in isolated circumstances is meaningless. The Dilemma exists only if the participants don't know anything about each others' tendencies; otherwise, there are data upon which to base a decision. See: the tit-for-tat strategy in repeated iterations of Prisoner's Dilemma.
4) We're all independently minded selfish egoists here, so our results may not be generalizable to an actual human population.
5) If people choose the cooperative option, it may not be so much a sign of cooperation as a simple calculation that the utility of the first dollar is slightly greater than that of the second dollar. To illustrate, suppose that the amounts offered were actually $1 million and $2 million. Who would risk losing the first million by being greedy?
6) Though we can't do it here, I'd love to see what variations would exist by culture. You might have everyone picking $2 in Putin's Russia and everyone picking $1 in Japan, for example.
6a) In our math-challenged society, you'd have quite a few people picking amounts like $14.98.
August 16th, 2016 at 5:18:59 PM
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I'm in but would kindly ask that anything I win be donated to Freddy
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
August 16th, 2016 at 5:49:51 PM
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I would have joined if I wasn't away and so possible not be online over the weekend. I think an interesting experiment would be finding 40 people who submit their votes once a week. Say you knew last week 60+% voted $1 how many might try and be greedy, similarly if 60+% voted $2 who would be noble to change their vote. Now that would be an interesting game.
My gut feeling is the optimum strategy is for everyone to vote $2 with P=1/3 - it's an interesting mathematical puzzle how playing "safer" brings the highest expected result. Of course if you know that's how other people will play then do you then vote $2?
My gut feeling is the optimum strategy is for everyone to vote $2 with P=1/3 - it's an interesting mathematical puzzle how playing "safer" brings the highest expected result. Of course if you know that's how other people will play then do you then vote $2?
August 16th, 2016 at 5:52:54 PM
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I'm in also.
ars longa vita brevis
August 16th, 2016 at 6:12:53 PM
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I'm in
Vote for Nobody 2020!
August 16th, 2016 at 6:19:27 PM
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I'm in.
Now I must watch episodes of Golden Balls on YouTube.
Now I must watch episodes of Golden Balls on YouTube.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
August 16th, 2016 at 6:29:17 PM
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If we all vote $1, we'll all win $1. It's really that easy, you guys. Don't **** it up!
August 16th, 2016 at 6:30:30 PM
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Quote: RSIf we all vote $1, we'll all win $1. It's really that easy, you guys. Don't **** it up!
But if you all do 1, then there is room for me to win $2 ;-)
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
August 16th, 2016 at 7:04:22 PM
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I say to Mike and to all:
For this thing to have any juice (or merit based on juice), the min should be $50, and the upper pay $200.
Everyone would say $1 versus $2 just to pretend to be a saint when we know otherwise.
Real money forces real honesty on what one's really about.
Especially with all those wicked AP-ers hanging around here.... ;) [wink]
For this thing to have any juice (or merit based on juice), the min should be $50, and the upper pay $200.
Everyone would say $1 versus $2 just to pretend to be a saint when we know otherwise.
Real money forces real honesty on what one's really about.
Especially with all those wicked AP-ers hanging around here.... ;) [wink]
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:27:30 PM
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I'm in
August 16th, 2016 at 7:36:07 PM
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Quote: RSQuestion: Can we communicate with each other and make a plan?
I'd think the optimal plan for collusion is to have 49% vote $2 and 51% vote $1, then split the prize pool (could maybe also swap votes between days to avoid needing to trust anyone with the prize pool).
But I'd also think there's a 0% chance of that happening with 40 people. I don't think that many people on a gambling forum have the willpower to not defect or form sub-committees.
August 16th, 2016 at 7:40:55 PM
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This is like the math version of big brother
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
August 16th, 2016 at 8:07:41 PM
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Count me in. I agree the results may be different if a significant amount of money were involved.
August 16th, 2016 at 9:56:00 PM
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We're up to 22 so far: SOOPOO, RS, Ayecarumba, Hunterhill, Paigowdan, beachbumbabs, odiousgambit, blount2000, RonC, GWAE, OnceDear, Paradigm, HeyMrDJ, Doc, mrsuit31, Joeshlabotnik, Wizardofnothing, theoriemeister, bigfoot66, miplet, gamerfreak, jml24.
Don't let being out of town prevent you from joining. It won't ruin things if you skip rounds from time to time.
Don't let being out of town prevent you from joining. It won't ruin things if you skip rounds from time to time.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 16th, 2016 at 9:56:27 PM
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Patience. Might be part of the experiment to go up in subsequent rounds and see where the breaking point is.
Yes, I'm someone who remembers GSN Friend or Foe. They ended up being public. This is at least initially, private.
I predict that if total offered go up, we're all getting zero by round 3 at the latest. This crowd...lol
Yes, I'm someone who remembers GSN Friend or Foe. They ended up being public. This is at least initially, private.
I predict that if total offered go up, we're all getting zero by round 3 at the latest. This crowd...lol
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
August 16th, 2016 at 10:23:12 PM
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I'm in
August 16th, 2016 at 11:06:26 PM
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Count me in, please.
August 17th, 2016 at 12:00:51 AM
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With collusion it is obvious that (N/2-1) vote $2, however suppose you are asking everyone to vote with a [independently random] 49% chance, then there is too much of a chance that more than 50% have picked $2 and everyone loses.Quote: gamerfreakI'd think the optimal plan for collusion is to have 49% vote $2 and 51% vote $1...
However suppose the first 39 people agreed a percentage and considered what happens if the 40th person then comes along. It should be indifferent whether the 40th person votes $1 or $2.
If the 39 people pick $1 too often then the 40th person can be greedy and merely picks $2, similarly if the 39 people are all greedy and pick $2 too often then the 40th person picks $1. The equilibrium position is where the 40th person has the same EV whether they pick $1 or $2. The value is about 64% to pick $2.
August 17th, 2016 at 3:00:43 AM
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Im in.
August 17th, 2016 at 3:19:43 AM
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I'm in.
Any and all collusion is encouraged ? If so You have no chance with a bunch of AP's especially at such a low amount.
Can we also vote someone off the island?
Any and all collusion is encouraged ? If so You have no chance with a bunch of AP's especially at such a low amount.
Can we also vote someone off the island?
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Aug 17, 2016
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 17th, 2016 at 5:29:10 AM
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I'm in.
Is this a contest against the other players, where the player at the end of all of the rounds who has the most winnings wins the game?
Is this a contest against the other players, where the player at the end of all of the rounds who has the most winnings wins the game?
August 17th, 2016 at 5:41:25 AM
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Quote: Dalex64Is this a contest against the other players, where the player at the end of all of the rounds who has the most winnings wins the game?
No. The object should be to win as much as you can. How you define "you" is up to you.
27 players so far: SOOPOO, RS, Ayecarumba, Hunterhill, Paigowdan, beachbumbabs, odiousgambit, blount2000, RonC, GWAE, OnceDear, Paradigm, HeyMrDJ, Doc, mrsuit31, Joeshlabotnik, Wizardofnothing, theoriemeister, bigfoot66, miplet, gamerfreak, jml24, rudeboyoi, doughtaker, Torghatten, AxelWolf, Dalex64.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
