Is college worth it nowadays?

Quote: toastcmu

As a CMU alum ('94) - it's been interesting to watch as CMU went from "what school? Where's that?" to a nationally ranked school. To put in perspective, back in 1990, there were about 5000 applicants for the 4000 spots back then. From what I hear, the admissions are exponentially harder now, last I had heard it was 15-20k applications for the same 4000 spots.

When I was in HS in the late 1980s, CMU was just coming on strong. To describe it the attitude was somthing along the lines of, "It's very good, but it isn't MIT." Something about the internet era really made the place take off. Now a good combubationb of software engeneering and robotics. A "technology park" down the road at a fomer mill site also really helped as it put some places of employment close by. Helped Pittsburgh avoid getting walloped by the national recession. We have done better than the nation as a whole, used to be this city was first in and last out of recessions.

It totally depends on the college. A lot of the kids that are coming out of city colleges and a lot of state colleges, are no better than HS grads. They can't read, do math, find anything on a map. My niece is graduating from a local state college this month and she's a real nice kid, but knowledge wise she's an idiot. But she has a degree, so she's an educated idiot. My daughter is head of the math dept at a good college, and she says every semester every class she teaches loses 2/3 of the students by the time its over. They come to college knowing nothing about math.

Is college worth it nowadays? Difficult question to give just one answer to. Some colleges strike me as being a waste for most anyone. There are some "students" for which any college would be a waste. But there are plenty of good colleges offering good (and valuable) educations to students who are willing to put in the necessary effort. A college degree doesn't necessarily guarantee you anything, but the lack of one will close a lot of doors -- yes, some non-graduates are very capable, but for many employers it just isn't worth the effort to weed through the incompetent masses searching for a competent non-graduate when there are so many graduates (of good programs) who have proven some ability even before they apply for the job.

The short version of my opinion: if a potential college student has both the ability and the work ethic to earn a degree in a good program from a good school, then doing that will probably be worth it. Some lazy kid screwing around on a campus or two for 4, 5, or 6 years and finally picking up some toilet paper diploma is a waste of time/effort both for the student and for those standing in the front of the classroom.

Absolutely it's worth it, for certain students.

My daughter is a sophomore at Notre Dame. She worked her butt off in high school, and made a lot of sacrifices time-wise. Her tuition is about 65% covered by academic scholarships; of the rest, we're paying half and she's taking loans for the other half. So after 4 years she'll have a very manageable $24k or so in loans, for a BA from Notre Dame.

Here's where it becomes worth it, and what's coming might not be what you think. I was hoping she'd go for international law. She speaks fluent French and Spanish, some Portuguese and some Italian, and American Sign. And she is logical, has excellent recall, and can argue well (in the debate sense). But she's really, really fascinated by anthropology. So, I figure this: She's only going to get ONE chance in her life to study something she truly loves, and learn it from the best in the world. And NOW is that time. She can't get a degree in law and then go back and study anthropology 10 years from now, it doesn't work that way; life makes its demands, and the world moves on, and it never seems to happen. But NOW. Young. Parents can give, some. She earned, A LOT. She covers, some. DO IT. Study anthropology. There's always time for law school, if that's what she wants. ("Law school: a pie eating contest where first prize is more pie.") She should do what she loves, it's the only path to success.

Next semester she's going to Chile, to study at Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile. Who, with her motivation and love of learning, would rather go into the workforce, for ANY amount of money, than study what she loves? What's the money for, if not quality of life? And isn't quality of life a highly personal metric? I would argue that for some students, the ones who are there for the learning, the ones who believe that they can change the world (and aren't ashamed to think that), there is no BETTER place to be.

Quote: Mosca

Absolutely it's worth it, for certain students.

Thats the thing, for certain students. My daughter was Valedictorian of her class in HS and got a full scholarship all the way thru graduate school. It even paid for her whole Junior year at a college in London. Now she teaches ungrateful college students. She is almost a math genius and could have gotten a degree in engineering, but no, she's wasting her time teaching math to students who don't want to be there and could care less.

Thanks for sharing that article with us. I found it enlightening and agree with a lot of the ideas presented therein.

Why college has gotten expensive is laughably simple to this Econ major - it's a case of supply and demand. Before WWII, there were two groups of people, loosely branded, who went to college:

1) Rich people, and
2) Smart people

and not everyone in either group. Now virtually everyone that has anywhere near a middle class lifestyle is pushed hard to go to collge, whether it's best for them or not. And most of them end up giving it a go. Meanwhile, there are sharp limits on how big the better colleges can get, and it's really difficult to build a college these days out of nothing. So, under that scenario, costs go up like a rocket - which is exactly what they've done.

I still think it's worth it for most potential students at this time, but in another generation it could be different.

Thinking longer term, I think we should make education more rigorous for everyone across the board and find something worthwhile for the inevitable half (or more) who wash out of the system.

Quote: fremont4ever

Now virtually everyone that has anywhere near a middle class lifestyle is pushed hard to go to collge,

When I started college in the late 60's, it was a big deal. Everybody didn't go in those days, like they do now. It was hard, the classes were not easy, I felt like I was accomplishing something. Now when I ask young people about their college work, they all say its an extension of high school, some even say its easier. Most of them are bored and just want it to be over.

Quote: fremont4ever

... Why college has gotten expensive is laughably simple to this Econ major - it's a case of supply and demand. ... Now virtually everyone that has anywhere near a middle class lifestyle is pushed hard to go to collge, whether it's best for them or not. And most of them end up giving it a go. Meanwhile, there are sharp limits on how big the better colleges can get, and it's really difficult to build a college these days out of nothing. So, under that scenario, costs go up like a rocket - which is exactly what they've done.....

I agree with many of your comments, but I think you have left out one important item. The fact that people are "pushed hard to go to college" does not mean that the better colleges have to get big enough to let them all get in. Higher application rates do not necessarily imply higher acceptance rates. The first college that I graduated from in the 1960s has indeed increased its enrollment by 60% since I graduated. But that increase was due to converting from an all-men school to a co-educational one, not due to accepting ever-increasing numbers of marginally-qualified applicants just because they would like to enroll.

Of course, the increased demand tends to lead to a supply of new programs (either at existing schools or at new schools), unfortunately not all necessarily providing a quality education. If the "smart people" you refer to are admitted to and attend the good schools and put out the necessary effort, they will probably find that the experience is worth what it costs. Those who don't fit into that category will likely attend a lesser program, and it may or may not be worth anything to them.

Quote: EvenBob

When I started college in the late 60's, it was a big deal. Everybody didn't go in those days, like they do now. It was hard, the classes were not easy, I felt like I was accomplishing something. Now when I ask young people about their college work, they all say its an extension of high school, some even say its easier. Most of them are bored and just want it to be over.

Are you referring to students today in the good programs or those enrolled in programs just created to satisfy the extra demand?

Earlier in this thread, odiousgambit quoted an un-named source in this manner: "it borders on immoral to ask America’s youth to incur heavy debt for an education for which millions are simply ill-equipped." The better programs that are better funded should find ways not to leave their young alumni with such debt. My alma mater that I mentioned above has implemented a program that eliminates loans from the student financial aid packages and yet meets all of the students' financial aid needs. Students now should be able to graduate debt free. Hopefully other schools will follow this path, though the weaker programs will not likely be able to do so.

Quote: EvenBob

When I started college in the late 60's, it was a big deal. Everybody didn't go in those days, like they do now. It was hard, the classes were not easy, I felt like I was accomplishing something. Now when I ask young people about their college work, they all say its an extension of high school, some even say its easier. Most of them are bored and just want it to be over.

This past holiday season, my daughter was telling me about how she signed up for a course titled "California Culture" because she'd get to read Kerouac and Kesey and Ginsburg, and listen to the Dead. The other day she told me it was by far the hardest class she's had in two years. It's all in what's expected to be learned, not in what's being taught.

Here is my story:

In 2000 when I entered college my parents made too much money for me to qualify for most government aid and my grades were just good enough to get me into a private college, but not good enough for me to get scholarships. When I started I paid $17,000 a year and borrowed another $5,000 a year for living expenses. By the time I graduated tuition was $23,000 so I left private undergrad with a total debt of about $75,000.00. I was accepted into law school and again had to pay everything from student loans. Which totaled approximately $150,000.00 for a total debt of $225,000.00. Unfortunately, I have had to work (40-50hrs a week) while trying to study for the bar exam because many of student loans came due right after graduation as I had to use most of my deferments when I had an injury that forced me to miss two semesters and the first job I had in California fell through before I ever took the exam so I wasted 6 months studying for a state bar in a state I really did not want to move to. According to my calculations I will end paying well over $350,000 once everything is paid off.

Starting salary in Nevada for an attorney is anywhere from $35,000-$65,000, so it will be a very long time before I start to really knock off any of that debt.

You tell me was it worth it? I know my salary has the potential to grow into the six-figures, but that is several years off from now.