Ask a Catholic

Quote: weaselman

Here is Pope John Paul II expressed it:
"Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

Eastern Orthodox tradition is very different on that point. In that view, both Heaven and Hell are in God's presence, as there cannot be such a place where there is no God.
John S. Romanides says:
"God himself is both heaven and hell, reward and punishment. All men have been created to see God unceasingly in His uncreated glory. Whether God will be for each man heaven or hell, reward or punishment, depends on man's response to God's love and on man's transformation from the state of selfish and self-centered love, to Godlike love which does not seek its own ends."

This is what happens when you let someone else do your thinking for you.
Why not take a wild flying guess for yourself?

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

So the question becomes, do you (not Wavy-you, but generic-you) have so much confidence in your own way that you think you are more learned, more intelligent, wiser, etc., than generation upon generation of humans before you, when the people who depend on you the most and you love the most - their eternities - are on the line, that you won't use a map?

Yes. Not in the sense that I believe I am smarter or otherwise superior to any and every one who has ever come before me, but I'm not going to follow a 'map' that I both think and feel is incorrect just because I am told to. I also don't use an atlas or GPS on road trips to NC or Fla either; at least those are based on provable fact. I dunno, maybe it's a patternized character flaw. =P

I think religion has value, but not in the way many would have you believe. It's funny, but in all the study and contemplation I have done on religion, the wisest thing I ever heard came from stoner-film maker Kevin Smith in the movie 'Dogma'. Chris Rock's character, playing the 13th apostle Rufus (who was left out of the Bible because he was black, lol) said that people have messed up religion and God's word by 'taking a bunch of really good idea's and making a belief system out of it'. I couldn't have worded my feelings any better than that. I feel many of the teaching of Christ are well meant, and I practice many of them myself. But I do so not for fear of an all powerful being, nor for the promise of Nirvana after death. I just do it because it's the right thing to do. And doing so for myself just because I want to has more power than doing the same but out of fear or personal gain, IMO.

I have a question for those who have shown a great knowledge on the subject. I have committed a number of the listed sins. I've stole, I've covetted, I've disrespected my parents....I've lived in sin, I've fornicated....I've done unto others things I would not want done unto me. Also, while I wouldn't say I have hatred of God (as I dont believe he exists) I have, I suppose, worked against him, as I've tried to debunk a number of things the ultra-religious have said to me. Of these things, while I may have apologized or otherwise expressed regret to those I have hurt, I have never 'asked forgiveness' in the biblical sense, nor do I plan to. I also was never baptised. In the event I'm totally wrong and somehow human's have hit the nail on the head when it comes to Christianity, should I expect to spend eternity in Limbo or whatever passes for hell these days? Just curious.

Quote: Face

Yes. Not in the sense that I believe I am smarter or otherwise superior to any and every one who has ever come before me, but I'm not going to follow a 'map' that I both think and feel is incorrect just because I am told to. I also don't use an atlas or GPS on road trips to NC or Fla either; at least those are based on provable fact. I dunno, maybe it's a patternized character flaw. =P

I didn't mean to convey an implication of anyone TELLING you what to do. Rather, I meant to convey that, you have a choice on whether or not to follow a map.

FWIW, I don't think God = Theology. I think the Religious Experience (whatever that is) is legitimate and personal. I think someone standing on a beach looking at a sunrise and says he "feels God" is telling the truth. But I also don't think that, just because something isn't provable in the way a GPS is provable = it doesn't exist or it doesn't hold great importance.

I hate it when people think of this issue in a scientific sense; it always comes across to me as a way to avoid the (very real) spiritual side of life, which is NOT scientific.

Quote: Face

I have a question for those who have shown a great knowledge on the subject. I have committed a number of the listed sins. I've stole, I've covetted, I've disrespected my parents....I've lived in sin, I've fornicated....I've done unto others things I would not want done unto me. Also, while I wouldn't say I have hatred of God (as I dont believe he exists) I have, I suppose, worked against him, as I've tried to debunk a number of things the ultra-religious have said to me. Of these things, while I may have apologized or otherwise expressed regret to those I have hurt, I have never 'asked forgiveness' in the biblical sense, nor do I plan to. I also was never baptised. In the event I'm totally wrong and somehow human's have hit the nail on the head when it comes to Christianity, should I expect to spend eternity in Limbo or whatever passes for hell these days? Just curious.

As best I understand Christian theology, the word that comes most strongly to mind as you describe yourself is this:

Normal.

I think Christian theology says we're all like that, more or less.

Sorry ICS, I didn't mean to imply that YOU were implying, I was just giving my opinion on the subject.

I dig your concept of 'feeling God' while on the beach watching the sunset. I often have those moments while out in the middle of nowhere fishing and beholding the beauty of nature. I just don't equate the majesty of the scenery, or the feeling it creates, as a product of God. Some do, and that's 100% fine with me. He can speak of the highly unlikely chance it was all 'created' and how beautiful God is, and I will respond with my opinion of an equally unlikely chance that it all happened randomly and how beautiful nature is. Then we'll high five and resume spinnin' for steelhead.

And I don't use the 'proof' excuse much, because I do understand that my view's are also unprovable. My views simply jive with what I feel is true, and what makes me feel 'good'. I assume the same can be said for those that believe. If we could simply stop there I think the world would be a much better place, but too many people, athiest and theist alike, take it too far IMO.

A sincere thank you goes to you, ICS, because you are the first one to ever call me 'Normal' lol. But my question was specifically asking what I have condemned myself to based on the teachings of the Bible. Wavy and others seemed to have a grasp on the interpretation and I was just curious. Based on my life's worth of actions with no chance of asking forgiveness I'd assume Hell, but I didn't know if my lack of baptism trumps that, since 'if I didn't know, it's not my fault'.

Quote: Face

Sorry ICS, I didn't mean to imply that YOU were implying, I was just giving my opinion on the subject.

I dig your concept of 'feeling God' while on the beach watching the sunset. I often have those moments while out in the middle of nowhere fishing and beholding the beauty of nature. I just don't equate the majesty of the scenery, or the feeling it creates, as a product of God. Some do, and that's 100% fine with me. He can speak of the highly unlikely chance it was all 'created' and how beautiful God is, and I will respond with my opinion of an equally unlikely chance that it all happened randomly and how beautiful nature is. Then we'll high five and resume spinnin' for steelhead.

And I don't use the 'proof' excuse much, because I do understand that my view's are also unprovable. My views simply jive with what I feel is true, and what makes me feel 'good'. I assume the same can be said for those that believe. If we could simply stop there I think the world would be a much better place, but too many people, athiest and theist alike, take it too far IMO.

A sincere thank you goes to you, ICS, because you are the first one to ever call me 'Normal' lol. But my question was specifically asking what I have condemned myself to based on the teachings of the Bible. Wavy and others seemed to have a grasp on the interpretation and I was just curious. Based on my life's worth of actions with no chance of asking forgiveness I'd assume Hell, but I didn't know if my lack of baptism trumps that, since 'if I didn't know, it's not my fault'.

Thanks for the kind words. Right back at ya. And, if it makes any difference, I would like to express my appreciation to this forum because it has fostered an environment of being able to talk freely without becoming argumentative. With only a few exceptions, the members of this forum are able to discuss religion , politics, and gambling systems - all historically controversial subjects - with civility and honest, respectful disagreement. That's hard enough to find in person, much less at a stupid internet forum.

Your last paragraph is, I think, nakedly honest. I think it deals with subjects that should probably be shared with the people closest to you and trustworthy practitioners of a religion you think works for you. As for me, while I appreciate the question, I am no counselor. I'm more of an explorer and engineer, and I don't feel ... well, worthy ... to answer such questions in such a personal context.

What I think I can say is that, however shitty you think you've been, we've all been shitty, too. I think Christian theology says that. "Shitty" has all kinds of manifestations, and I don't have the courage you have to say how shitty I've been here. But suffice it to say, from who I am and what I observe ... we've all been shitty. In other words, you're normal.

I would also add that, my understanding of Christianity is that salvation is based on what you believe about Jesus, not on what you have or haven't done. I think the Christians believe that, if Adolf Hitler truly confessed Jesus on his deathbed, he would be entered into heaven. But I also think they believe in reprobation - meaning, sometimes someone is so lost that they can't possibly be saved, so it would be impossible for Hitler to confess Jesus. But they also believe that nothing is impossible with God. And this goes back to the "sovereignty of God" and "predestination vs. free will" questions that don't make any sense to me.

Quote: weaselman

I could tell :)


The usual answer to this is "Crusades". But you did mention "this country" ... So, "witch trials"

Conservatism has evolved and changed over the centuries. Its much more open minded now.

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

When you die, the "hay is in the barn." There's no more opportunity to do good, do evil, or to believe in Jesus's work.


I've lost both parents, too. I don't WORRY about them, but I also don't have any assurance as to their eternal fate.

Thats exactly what they say, 'Its in god's hands now' and they can wash they're hands of it. Its a cop-out.

How come nobody ever wrings their hands and worries about where they were before they were born? You were obviously 'somewhere', you didn't POOF out of nothing. Its only logical that when your body can no longer support your spirit, it returns to where it came from. Occam's Razor, the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

Quote: Face

I think religion has value, but not in the way many would have you believe.

Mark Twain said religion has a purpose, it gives people something to do and something to fiddle around with while they're here. He was quite religious himself till his favorite daughter died. He then started saying things like 'the biggest joke on mankind is that he believes god sits up nights worrying about him'.

Quote: EvenBob

Mark Twain said religion has a purpose, it gives people something to do and something to fiddle around with while they're here. He was quite religious himself till his favorite daughter died. He then started saying things like 'the biggest joke on mankind is that he believes god sits up nights worrying about him'.

I like Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn as much as the next guy, but ...

... if that is true, it sounds like he was a bitter old man who pouted for an entire lifetime because something didn't go his way.

Granted, losing a child is unfathomable. But a reaction like that tells me he worshiped his daughter before he worshiped his god, and that he was never really interested in god outside of how god served him. He may as well have thought god was Santa Claus.

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

... if that is true, it sounds like he was a bitter old man who pouted for an entire lifetime because something didn't go his way.

.

Not a lifetime. She died at 24, 15 years before Twain died. He was devastated and took it out on god. He was extremely well known and did speaking engagements. Most of his best and wittiest comments about the falseness of religion came from his public speaking. He was over 60 when she died, and he could find no point in it.

There's a line in a movie called 'Constantine' that Twain would agree with. The movie is about the battle between heaven and hell on earth. At one point one of the characters says: "I guess God has a plan for all of us." To which Constantine replies: "God's a kid with an ant farm, lady. He's not planning anything." Mark Twain would agree with that whole heartedly.