Are hybrids worth the extra cost?
I had to dig around lots of sources to get the facts I need.
Price of gas: ' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.eia.doe.gov/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html] http://www.eia.doe.gov/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html, which is currently about $3.00 a gallon in Vegas.
Fuel economy of hybrid: ' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml = 28/28 (city/highway) for 4WD.
Fuel economy of non-hybrid: ' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.toyota.com/highlander/specs.html] http://www.toyota.com/highlander/specs.html=17/22 (city/highway) for 4WD.
Cost of hybrid: http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2011/Toyota/Highlander-Hybrid = $37,490 for 4WD 4dr.
Cost of non-hybrid: http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2011/Toyota/Highlander = $29,995
So, the hybrid costs an extra $7,495. Let's solve for the number of miles you would need to drive to break even at various costs of gas to recoup that. For the mileage of the non-hybrid I'm taking the average of 17 and 22, which is 19.5.
The formula for the number of miles to break even is (h/g)/((1/mr)-(1/mh)), where
h = Additional cost of the hybrid.
g = The cost of a gallon of gas.
mr = Miles per gallon for non-hybrid (the r is for a "regular" car).
mh = Miles per gallon for the hybrid.
The following table shows the breakeven number of miles for various prices of gas from $2 to $5 per gallon.
| Gas price | Miles to break even |
|---|---|
| $ 2.00 | 240,722 |
| $ 2.25 | 213,975 |
| $ 2.50 | 192,577 |
| $ 2.75 | 175,070 |
| $ 3.00 | 160,481 |
| $ 3.25 | 148,136 |
| $ 3.50 | 137,555 |
| $ 3.75 | 128,385 |
| $ 4.00 | 120,361 |
| $ 4.25 | 113,281 |
| $ 4.50 | 106,987 |
| $ 4.75 | 101,357 |
| $ 5.00 | 96,289 |
So, at the current price of $3 per gallon I would need to drive the thing 160,481 miles. I doubt I'm going to get that many miles out of it, so I think I'm better off getting the regular model.
I welcome all comments.
1 - Despite your negative belief, it's likely that the car will reach the break-even point or further. With regular maintenance, cars last longer these days.
2 - Resale value.
3 - Cost of maintenance.
The biggie:
4 - Value of the "feel good factor", knowing you're doing something for the environment.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThere are several factors you haven't considered.
1 - Despite your negative belief, it's likely that the car will reach the break-even point or further. With regular maintenance, cars last longer these days.
2 - Resale value.
3 - Cost of maintenance.
The biggie:
4 - Value of the "feel good factor", knowing you're doing something for the environment.
1. If I were stuck with it then I'd concede the point. However, Mrs. Wizard is big on appearances, and doesn't like to drive around old cars with lots of mileage. Otherwise, I'd just keep using my current minivan.
2. I'll probably sell this car at around 100K. Then as a regular car it will be worth about 5K. With old cars you don't get much bargaining power for extras. I roughly guess a hybrid might bring in an extra $1,000.
3. Wouldn't the extra electric engine just increase the cost of maintenance?
4. I already drive only about 5,000 miles a year. I'm usually riding my bike short distances and drive only when I have an important reason to. So that is my bit for the environment. I think the focus on saving the environment should be mainly on consuming less.
Quote: WizardQuote: DJTeddyBearMrs. Wizard is big on appearances,
My wifes Jeep is 10 years old but looks brand new. She gets anything wrong fixed right away. The interior is flawless. The interior of my car, well, isn't...."It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Quote: Wizard1. If I were stuck with it then I'd concede the point. However, Mrs. Wizard is big on appearances, and doesn't like to drive around old cars with lots of mileage. Otherwise, I'd just keep using my current minivan.
2. I'll probably sell this car at around 100K.
Those two don't really go well together. If you're (or she's) really happiest driving the latest and greatest, you should lease something every few years. The dramatic, immediate decline in value for a new car purchase doesn't seem to be worth it if you're only going to drive 5k miles/year. If that's all you're going to do, I recommend either (a) leasing something new every 3 years, or (b) buying a 3-4 year old car, planning on keeping it for 3 years, and then doing it again.
But if I were into the environmental side of things, and I still lived in Vegas, I'd do something with solar and electric. This company does solar panels for Priuses (is that Prii?), and at 30miles/day on solar, you might never have to spend money on gas.
Quote: MathExtremistThose two don't really go well together. If you're (or she's) really happiest driving the latest and greatest, you should lease something every few years. The dramatic, immediate decline in value for a new car purchase doesn't seem to be worth it if you're only going to drive 5k miles/year. If that's all you're going to do, I recommend either (a) leasing something new every 3 years, or (b) buying a 3-4 year old car, planning on keeping it for 3 years, and then doing it again.
But if I were into the environmental side of things, and I still lived in Vegas, I'd do something with solar and electric. This company does solar panels for Priuses (is that Prii?), and at 30miles/day on solar, you might never have to spend money on gas.
I drive only about 5K miles a year, but my wife drives more than that. It would seem to me that leasing would be the better option for some one who drives a lot.
While car shopping today I did indeed look at some used cars. By the way, I refuse to refer to them as "pre-owned." What a crock that is. Anyway, I very disappointed at how high they were priced. I think you can get a good value buying used from a private party, but the new car dealers seemed to not be eager to sell their used cars, judging by their high prices. As an example, I saw a Honda minivan with about 80K miles on it for about 20K. You can get a new one for around 30K.
1. The drivetrain is necessarily going to be more esoteric to maintain and repair. You're pretty much going to be forced to use the local dealer(s) for that work, and dealers are almost always the most expensive (and crowded) for repairs. There just won't be that many independent shops who are able, or qualified, to work on hybrid drivetrains (and there may be warranty isuues). Plus, the batteries are extremely expensive to replace, and hybrids haven't been out there for sufficiently long or in sufficient numbers to give a good data set on battery life.
2. In an accident, the batteries could rupture and discharge, providing a potentially fatal shock to any rescuers. Many fire departments will not use the "jaws of life" on a hybrid to extract a passenger, for that reason. I have no idea how real this hazard is.
I also kind of resent the fact that hybrids are MORE expensive than conventional autos, when they should be much LESS. The hybrid engines are much simpler, lighter, and easier to manufacture than conventional internal combustion engines. You pay a premium for something less complex and easier to make. As you've noted, it takes several years to amortize the additional cost of a hybrid. This serves, along with the maintenance issues I've mentioned, as sufficient disincentive for me to buy one.
Quote: KelmoI heard that the manufacturing and disposal of the battery does more harm to the environment than most standard economy cards do in their lifetime. not sure if that's true, but makes me wonder if hybrids are more about selling cars than helping the environment.
I think Hybrids and electrics in cars like a Taxi (incredibly popular) make sense for the taxi owners who have them on the road 24/7 by 365. For 5k a year... I'm pretty sure not so much.
Remember that electricity you put in... hows that generated? It may not be the clean and green energy you think it is. And certainly making the battery (and mining the metals that go into them) is not the nirvana it's supposed to be.
The electric car will be here long term, I just don't think it's time is now... like the Music Zen Player was not the answer the portable electronic music....
Quote: DJTeddyBear
The biggie:
4 - Value of the "feel good factor", knowing you're doing something for the environment.
Since I live in Hybrid Land (as well as, Feel Good About the Environment Land), I feel compelled to point out that the most environmentally-friendly car-buying decision a person can make is to continue driving their old car.
I put on about 20k a year and average 43MPH. Obviously the SUV would get less.
The big difference came when gas was hovering about $5/gal.
As far as the batteries unless Toyota changed recently they have a 10 year/ 250 or 300k warranty.
For me I spent a lot less than if I had purchased a similar non hybrid type.
I have heard that one about it is more environmentally sound to have kept my old car. How can that be when my 11 year old Saturn was simultaneously burning and leaking oil?
Just believing something doesn't make it true.
Legit reasons to buy a hybrid:
(1) You like to sneak up on children so you can run them over more easily
(2) You are researching concepts like regenerative braking and need to know more about it (EG: you are Bill Nye the science guy).
(3) You get more attention from someone you like (EG: you have a crush on some tree-hugger chick who's into "green" crap)
(4) You get some government incentive that allow you to steal from hard working Americans who don't know where their tax money is going and you like taking money that doesn't rightfully belong to you
(5) You are a stunt man and a scene calls for destroying the car of some tree-hugging nerd in a fantastic ball of fire and exploding battery acid to create "EcoMan"
(6) You love jamming the gas then the brakes then the gas some more and sometimes pressing both pedals at the same time for a long time to scare the piss out of someone tailgating frequently enough that you only get 5mph gas mileage on a typical car.
(7) You have a paper route and live with your mom who is going to buy you any car you want but you have to pay for gas, and you already have another "cool" car for going on dates with.
(8) You own a company that converts hybrid cars to have batteries and a plug on back, and you want to drive an advertisement for your business.
(9) You are a terrorist, and need to hide a bomb that is less likely to be discovered at a checkpoint.
(10) You are a politician who used to drive a Hummer until you got bad press for not practicing what you preach when it comes to "saving the environment."
Quote: mkl654321Since I live in Hybrid Land (as well as, Feel Good About the Environment Land), I feel compelled to point out that the most environmentally-friendly car-buying decision a person can make is to continue driving their old car.
Quote: Wavy70
I have heard that one about it is more environmentally sound to have kept my old car. How can that be when my 11 year old Saturn was simultaneously burning and leaking oil?
All Saturns burn oil, but they sure get good gas mileage.
Quote: EvenBobAll Saturns burn oil, but they sure get good gas mileage.
But when etiquette dictates you bring a cardboard box to slid under the car so as not to leave stains in your friends drive it's time to put the car to sleep.
I can't fault the Saturn I have done things w that car that are just amazing.
Quote: mkl654321Since I live in Hybrid Land (as well as, Feel Good About the Environment Land), I feel compelled to point out that the most environmentally-friendly car-buying decision a person can make is to continue driving their old car.Quote: DJTeddyBearThe biggie:
4 - Value of the "feel good factor", knowing you're doing something for the environment.
I must point out that I put "feel good factor" in quotes for a reason:
I believe the level of 'saving the environment' such a car does, is far exceeded by the level that the owner THINKS it does.
Quote: mkl654321I also kind of resent the fact that hybrids are MORE expensive than conventional autos, when they should be much LESS. The hybrid engines are much simpler, lighter, and easier to manufacture than conventional internal combustion engines. You pay a premium for something less complex and easier to make. As you've noted, it takes several years to amortize the additional cost of a hybrid. This serves, along with the maintenance issues I've mentioned, as sufficient disincentive for me to buy one.
I thought hybrid engines were more complex. You have a gasoline engine and an electric motor, with a mechanism to switch back and forth. How is that less complicated? I believe hybrids are also heavier than conventional cars. It almost sounds like you're talking about fully electric cars.
Quote: Wizard
1. If I were stuck with it then I'd concede the point. However, Mrs. Wizard is big on appearances, and doesn't like to drive around old cars with lots of mileage. Otherwise, I'd just keep using my current minivan.
With any luck, she won't trade you in when you get too many miles on you. That could get really expensive! :D
Quote: WizardQuote: MathExtremistThose two don't really go well together. If you're (or she's) really happiest driving the latest and greatest, you should lease something every few years. The dramatic, immediate decline in value for a new car purchase doesn't seem to be worth it if you're only going to drive 5k miles/year. If that's all you're going to do, I recommend either (a) leasing something new every 3 years, or (b) buying a 3-4 year old car, planning on keeping it for 3 years, and then doing it again.
But if I were into the environmental side of things, and I still lived in Vegas, I'd do something with solar and electric. This company does solar panels for Priuses (is that Prii?), and at 30miles/day on solar, you might never have to spend money on gas.
I drive only about 5K miles a year, but my wife drives more than that. It would seem to me that leasing would be the better option for some one who drives a lot.
While car shopping today I did indeed look at some used cars. By the way, I refuse to refer to them as "pre-owned." What a crock that is. Anyway, I very disappointed at how high they were priced. I think you can get a good value buying used from a private party, but the new car dealers seemed to not be eager to sell their used cars, judging by their high prices. As an example, I saw a Honda minivan with about 80K miles on it for about 20K. You can get a new one for around 30K.
I've never leased a car but I thought there was a mileage cap with hefty penalties. Wouldn't that work against the person who drives a lot or is that something that can be negotiated?
Speaking of Toyota, they are working with Tesla Motors on a all electric RAV4. It was set to debut last month at the LA auto show.
Too early to buy a hybrid. It's just like all that fat free food, they pump up the price just because it sounds better for you. A hybrid is only worth it if it costs less, is cheaper to maintain, and it's way more efficient. They ain't there yet. Best to stick with the real Highlander.
Wizard, glad to see you caught mkl in one of his made-up replies trying to impress with all that wordly "knowledge", this time about hybrids.
Leases come with a defined allowed per year mileage. I have leased twice, one allowed 15k per year, the other 12k. Over that there is a per mile charge, it was maybe 25cents per mile. The only real advantage to a lease is that you do not have to ever sell a car when buying a new one. In the old days, there were tax advantages, but not anymore.
I might be completely off-base here, but I thought hybrids are nothing more than electric cars with a generator to charge the batteries and power the electric motors. Also, I thought that, like electric cars, there are individual motors on each wheel (or at least an individual motor on each of the drive wheels).Quote: WizardI thought hybrid engines were more complex. You have a gasoline engine and an electric motor, with a mechanism to switch back and forth. How is that less complicated? I believe hybrids are also heavier than conventional cars. It almost sounds like you're talking about fully electric cars.
Quote: WizardI thought hybrid engines were more complex. You have a gasoline engine and an electric motor, with a mechanism to switch back and forth. How is that less complicated? I believe hybrids are also heavier than conventional cars. It almost sounds like you're talking about fully electric cars.
No, hybrids are less complex overall because the internal combustion engine in a hybrid is much smaller and lighter than the engine in a conventional car (also, less powerful), and electric drive-motors are hundred-year-old technology. The only thing that stopped the manufacture of such vehicles much earlier was the lack of a sufficiently sophisticated onboard computer. The current hybrids are mostly old technology, abetted by new software. There's nothing particularly esoteric about the processes needed to manufacture a hybrid. In fact, such vehicles have existed in various commercial applications for decades.
Hybrids retail for about 20% more than their conventional equivalents, which would imply that the hybrid's drivetrain was MUCH more expensive to manufacture; given the relative costs of various components, this would mean that if the hybrid's pricing was fair, that its drivetrain cost FIVE TIMES as much to build, something I find rather implausible.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI might be completely off-base here, but I thought hybrids are nothing more than electric cars with a generator to charge the batteries and power the electric motors. Also, I thought that, like electric cars, there are individual motors on each wheel (or at least an individual motor on each of the drive wheels).
Actually, hybrids have two motors, one electric, and the other gasoline. The car is designed to run on the battery power when possible, with the gasoline engine kicking in to charge the battery and provide more power when needed (i.e. accelerating, or driving at highway speed). A complex series of sensors and a cpu switch between the two.
Hybrids don't make sense for larger vehicles like the Highlander. The battery is heavy, dragging down the mpg, and they are very expensive to replace. You are wise to only look into the regular one for now.
Edit: As for the drivetrain, they are more, "traditional" than what you describe. Power to the wheels is provided by the motors through a single drivetrain, not to each individual wheel (which was the exotic set up in Speed Racer's Mach 5).
However, here in Va - the state allows hybrid drivers to drive single in the HOV lanes - not sure how Nv works. Of course, that's a bone of contention for many - the 100k Lexus Hybrid which gets 23mpg gets that privledge, while a standard civic which gets double the mpg does not. Also, for those who view driving as something more than point A to point B don't like hybrids due to the added weight and low rolling resistance tires.
I think hybrids like the Ford Fusion are the most economical, as the price differential is not as extreme as the Highlander, and it gets much better mileage than the V-6 counterpart, while still maintaining a mid-size car category, meaning it's useful for family life.
-B
Quote: mkl654321No, hybrids are less complex overall because the internal combustion engine in a hybrid is much smaller and lighter than the engine in a conventional car (also, less powerful), and electric drive-motors are hundred-year-old technology. The only thing that stopped the manufacture of such vehicles much earlier was the lack of a sufficiently sophisticated onboard computer. The current hybrids are mostly old technology, abetted by new software. There's nothing particularly esoteric about the processes needed to manufacture a hybrid. In fact, such vehicles have existed in various commercial applications for decades.
Here is a good article that explains hybrids: Hybrid Cars Advantages and Disadvantages @ www.articlesbase.com.
Here are some particular quotes:
Quote: Hybrid Cars Advantages and DisadvantagesHybrid cars have two engines for it to effectively conserve fuel consumption. It has the traditional gasoline engine and it also has an electric motor and batteries. The two engines work together in order to cut fuel consumption.
Quote: Hybrid Cars Advantages and DisadvantagesHybrid cars are relatively heavy because of the heavy batteries installed inside the car. This is why hybrid car manufacturers integrates smaller internal combustion engines and are constructed with light materials and should be aerodynamic in order to maximize efficiency. This means that hybrid cars can never really go fast.
So we have a smaller gasoline engine, as well as the electric motor and batteries. That sounds more "complex" to me. Just making the engine smaller does not necessarily make it less complicated, just less powerful, but hybrids add the electric motor and batteries. The "relatively heavy" comment seems to contract your claim that hybrids are "lighter."
Unrelated to your comment, one thing that bothers me about hybrids is that they are so quiet, I think unsafely so, when going off the batteries. I do a fair bit of city bike riding, and we riders rely on hearing cars to avoid being hit by them. Silent cars can mean trouble for bikers, not to mention children and the elderly. I'm surprised you don't hear more about this.
Quote: Wizard
So, at the current price of $3 per gallon I would need to drive the think 160,481 miles. I doubt I'm going to get that many miles out of it, so I think I'm better off getting the regular model.
I welcome all comments.
The hype on hybrids shows yet again how Americans ignore the math either by choice or ignorance. Then there is the "good for the envrionment" thing which is also one-dimensional. I think MKL mentioned keeping the old car being better and they did a study that when you take mining the lead and other manufacturing envrio-costs into account the full-size SUV is better envrionmentally. For the true test, look at the market. Except for the Prius, which is a "styling statement" hybrids are simply no longer flying off the lot. Some models are being discontinued. The Volt is such a bad deal it must be subsidized $7,000.
Then there is the battery issue. Will they last 5-10 years? Hybrids didn't really take off until 2006-8 when gas prices really went up. So we really are 5 or more years before we know enough to know. To my way of thinking they could get 90% of the benefit of the hybrid by having the engine shut off at a stop like in a golf cart. But I don't work for GM....................
You said you were down to the Highlander for practical reasons so it is not a "Prius vs Fiesta" decision but rather a simple choice of engines like 440 vs 426 Hemi back in the 1960s. With envrionmentalist credintials suspect as we have shown, i would put it all down to the math. But in addition to your formula consider repair costs if they happen. My rule as a shade-tree-level mechanic is "the more complex the more cost to fix if it breaks." Hybrids are much more complex.
My advice--skip the Hybrid unless you get it for a very low cost because it was sitting on the lot at end of year.
Quote: mkl654321No, hybrids are less complex overall because the internal combustion engine in a hybrid is much smaller and lighter than the engine in a conventional car (also, less powerful), and electric drive-motors are hundred-year-old technology. The only thing that stopped the manufacture of such vehicles much earlier was the lack of a sufficiently sophisticated onboard computer. The current hybrids are mostly old technology, abetted by new software. There's nothing particularly esoteric about the processes needed to manufacture a hybrid. In fact, such vehicles have existed in various commercial applications for decades.
Hybrids retail for about 20% more than their conventional equivalents, which would imply that the hybrid's drivetrain was MUCH more expensive to manufacture; given the relative costs of various components, this would mean that if the hybrid's pricing was fair, that its drivetrain cost FIVE TIMES as much to build, something I find rather implausible.
Assertion upon assertion just to make people think he's knows everything about this issue too. So insecure....
He made the first part about engine size up because he got caught by Wizard and had to come back with something. There are all kinds and sizes of ic engines in a hybrid, only he didn't take the time to look that one up on the Internet in his frenzy to save face.
Give 5 examples of "In fact, such vehicles have existed in various commercial applications for decades".
The hybrid's extra cost has nothing to do with the drivetrain. Please.... It's the extra engine, the batteries, and the infatuation with liberals that these things get their high price for.
Not that you see many Milk Floats these days.
Except they aren't hybrid, they are pure electronic.
Nuclear Subs (as well as Diesel Electric Trains) are Hybrid vehicles as well.
Sorry, can't think of a 5th though.
Quote: thecesspitI'll give you two good uses of a electric vehicles : Milk Floats and Light fork lifts (in the UK at least)
Not that you see many Milk Floats these days.
Except they aren't hybrid, they are pure electronic.
Nuclear Subs (as well as Diesel Electric Trains) are Hybrid vehicles as well.
Sorry, can't think of a 5th though.
Come to mkl's rescue!....only you didn't. Hybrids, and only in "various commercial applications" please.
Quote: JerryLoganCome to mkl's rescue!....only you didn't. Hybrids, and only in "various commercial applications" please.
Wasn't trying to come to anyone's rescue. I don't want to get into the S&M relationship you have brewing.
Okay, you can have Diesel Electric Trains then.
There, I'm done. (Least I can't think of a commercial application of a nuclear powered vessel... )
Quote: WizardThe "relatively heavy" comment seems to contract your claim that hybrids are "lighter."
I didn't say the car itself was lighter, only that the engine was. And smaller engines need less exterior accessories; emission controls, cooling, etc. (most small internal combustion engines are air-cooled, but virtually no larger internal combustion engine is, except in some aircraft). Since a hybrid's gasoline engine is smaller that the conventional equivalent in the same car, it would seem to me that there would be cost savings from that, which would at least partly offset the additional cost of the electric motor.
In any case, given that the cost of the powertrain is only a portion of the overall cost of manufacture, a hybrid powertrain would have to be MUCH more expensive than a conventional powertrain to justify a 15-22% increase in the overall retail price of the car.
Quote: thecesspit
Not that you see many Milk Floats these days.
Milk Float? What the hell is that?
Many Taxi fleets have been using them for a few years.
Other factors on the Toyota Hybrids:
Since the Elec motor starts first you don't experience cold starts. (Not as big of a problem in NV as is in CT)
No transmission a very simple planetary gear sys.
No clutch or Trans couplings to wear out
Brakes (On Prius at least) physical breaks don't engage until you have decreased to about 5mpg. Most of braking done by the generator. (30k on mine and the brakes are almost new)
AC is electric powered so no drag on engine when it cranks on.
As far as going fast. How fast do you want to go?
Quote: thecesspitI'll give you two good uses of a electric vehicles : Milk Floats and Light fork lifts (in the UK at least)
Not that you see many Milk Floats these days.
Except they aren't hybrid, they are pure electronic.
Nuclear Subs (as well as Diesel Electric Trains) are Hybrid vehicles as well.
Sorry, can't think of a 5th though.
Hybrid diesel-electric loading cranes, and this thing...
Quote: EvenBobMilk Float? What the hell is that?
Used to deliver milk in the morning in the UK. Though it's less common now, as the supermarkets have undercut the milkman. Before the Milk float was the milk cart, towed by the milkman's horse.
"Another issue about hybrid cars is that it is very risky in accidents. What makes a hybrid car work effectively is also what makes it risky if it ever gets involved in an accident. This is because hybrid cars stores high amount of voltage in its batteries. This means that there is a high chance of getting electrocuted when you get involved in an accident. This also means that it is relatively difficult for rescuers to get the drivers and passengers out of the hybrid cars because of the dangers of high voltage in the car."
Well, isn't THAT special.
Quote: MrVFrom the article the Wiz linked to earlier...
"Another issue about hybrid cars is that it is very risky in accidents. What makes a hybrid car work effectively is also what makes it risky if it ever gets involved in an accident. This is because hybrid cars stores high amount of voltage in its batteries. This means that there is a high chance of getting electrocuted when you get involved in an accident. This also means that it is relatively difficult for rescuers to get the drivers and passengers out of the hybrid cars because of the dangers of high voltage in the car."
Well, isn't THAT special.
In theory however a few years ago Ford sent out Hybrids to many major FD's to show how to safely extract people.
Additionally they have safety shut offs which isolate the batteries when a collision is detected.
There has yet to be one report of a operator or emergency worker getting hurt by voltage in hybrids.
Quote: MrVFrom the article the Wiz linked to earlier...
"Another issue about hybrid cars is that it is very risky in accidents. What makes a hybrid car work effectively is also what makes it risky if it ever gets involved in an accident. This is because hybrid cars stores high amount of voltage in its batteries. This means that there is a high chance of getting electrocuted when you get involved in an accident. This also means that it is relatively difficult for rescuers to get the drivers and passengers out of the hybrid cars because of the dangers of high voltage in the car."
Well, isn't THAT special.
These things just aren't developed enough yet to be a viable form of transportation that'll keep up with real cars. Let the alarmist liberals and environmentalists have at it with all their green this and green that crapola, and let them keep whining about gas prices as they stay in those low-paying artsy jobs of theirs. When they finally come up with a real hybrid car that can actually get out of its own way, that makes sense, that's fully tested from top to bottom, and that doesn't look like it's part of the Rainbow Day parade in SF, I might take a look.
Quote: WizardUnrelated to your comment, one thing that bothers me about hybrids is that they are so quiet, I think unsafely so, when going off the batteries. I do a fair bit of city bike riding, and we riders rely on hearing cars to avoid being hit by them. Silent cars can mean trouble for bikers, not to mention children and the elderly. I'm surprised you don't hear more about this.
The state of Oregon is seriously considering mandating the installation of audible signaling devices on hybrids registered in the state. I know I've been surprised by them many times--with any kind of ambient noise level, you simply can't hear them coming, and the drivers often don't seem to realize that.
Quote: thecesspit
Used to deliver milk in the morning in the UK. Though it's less common now, as the supermarkets have undercut the milkman. Before the Milk float was the milk cart, towed by the milkman's horse.
Its not floating.
Quote: mkl654321The state of Oregon is seriously considering mandating the installation of audible signaling devices on hybrids registered in the state. I know I've been surprised by them many times--with any kind of ambient noise level, you simply can't hear them coming, and the drivers often don't seem to realize that.
Oh we know it. Besides everyone either has earbuds or cell phones while walking so unless you took the pipes off the softtail they still may not hear ya.
I do enjoy the look on people who somehow seem to wander down the center of a road or parking lot oblivious to the world when they suddenly notice that cars use the road too
We have no Tigers to thin the herd perhaps the Hybrid can weed out the slower.
Quote: EvenBobIts not floating.
Nor is this :
But it's still a float :)
Go figure the English language where we park on driveways and drive on park ways. Baby oil isn't made from babies, crude oil isn't made from crudes, but olive oil is made from olives; a boot in one country is trunk in another, and a hood is the same as a bonnet, except when he's got a gun.
Quote: Wavy70Oh we know it. Besides everyone either has earbuds or cell phones while walking so unless you took the pipes off the softtail they still may not hear ya.
I do enjoy the look on people who somehow seem to wander down the center of a road or parking lot oblivious to the world when they suddenly notice that cars use the road too
We have no Tigers to thin the herd perhaps the Hybrid can weed out the slower.
It may surprise you to know that even if a pedestrian is wearing earmuffs and a diving helmet, it is the responsibility of the driver to avoid the pedestrian, not the other way around.
Quote: mkl654321It may surprise you to know that even if a pedestrian is wearing earmuffs and a diving helmet, it is the responsibility of the driver to avoid the pedestrian, not the other way around.
Actually if a motorist hits a distracted pedestrian such as they are not paying attention and walk in front of a car the driver is not responsible. Yes the driver is to do what they can to avoid them.
I agree with Logan (!) that the technology/price factor is not mature enough to warrant purchasing the hybrid. If you want to save the environment, drive less and don't drive a car that has alot more horses than you actually need. When the electrics have been out for about 5-10 years, I plan on getting one.
Quote: boymimboWhen the electrics have been out for about 5-10 years, I plan on getting one.
This has been touched on before but has anybody ever done a study comparing the total waste and damage to the environment of electric vs. fossil fuel cars? I'm sure electric car drivers award themselves lots of green points for not consuming any gas. However, that electricity has to come from somewhere. Most of it probably came from burning coal -- and lots of it.
It may surprise you to know that even if a pedestrian is wearing earmuffs and a diving helmet, it is the responsibility of the driver to avoid the pedestrian, not the other way around.
wavy says:
Actually if a motorist hits a distracted pedestrian such as they are not paying attention and walk in front of a car the driver is not responsible. Yes the driver is to do what they can to avoid them.
Now this is funny. Both are jealous of singer, yet wavy just couldn't help but once again point out where mkl was making it up on the go.
