is it possible to rig the shuffling machines in blackjack?
Many view Indian casinos as "lesser" casinos often perhaps because they are smaller and more remote. Some are poorly run and this creates a certain viewpoint. Sort of a motorist on his way to Reno situation. He might prefer what he considers to be the "real" thing in Reno, but several Indian casinos are right there near the roadside and why should he drive over the mountains in Winter when "real enough" is right there. This then bleeds off the traffic to Reno sufficiently to affect Reno casinos. The motorists laments the days of old while he plays at the Indian casino.
I play at Indian casinos. I don't think they are well run. Rude floorpersons, ill-trained dealers, special monthly coupons mailed half way through the month, using a fifty dollar match coupon takes more rigamarole than would be worth it, special events poorly planned (99cent beer in one place, 99cent hotdogs in another, 9.99 tee shirts in yet another; some of the most poorly run corporate parties I've ever attended). Heck, I don't think those Indian casinos even know what a Tit Pit is. One recently opened a set of special blackjack tables with supposedly sexy costumes on the dealers but I think the wardrobe mistress worked in a convent or something.
Riverside county in California had a murder related to a tribal audit and many Indians who objected to the results of the audit were threatened with dis-enrollment. These things all create an aura of "shadyness". Its sort of the same view when an Indian casino dealer loudly referred to a player as a "corksucker" and the Floorperson echoed the viewpoint byloudly asking "which one of those corksuckers" thus resulting in the entire MiniBacc table leaving even though they perhaps were non-tippers and might indeed have been "cork" suckers. Or a Pit Boss who ended a rebellion about raised minimums by declaring that in one minute anyone who was still seated at that table would be arrested by tribal police, taken to a tribal jail and hauled before a tribal judge. These things affect the players a bit more than the incidents may actually merit. I don't think a dealer in Vegas could get away with such things and the Floorperson might echo the dealer's sentiments about the players but it would have been a whispered echo rather than a bellowed one which the players involved all heard and darn near half the casino heard as well.
I don't like the notion that a tribal commission is separate enough from the tribe, though I imagine the dollar amounts at stake in New York and Florida make things honest enough. Casinos in Vegas do declare some slot payouts to be "malfunctions" but I've a certain subjective impression that it happens more frequently in Indian casinos and seems far more of an impenetrable wall of silence when it happens.
Indian casinos are close by and thats the best I can say about them. Perhaps I should have a more tolerant attitude towards them, but I simply don't. I probably should have a more tolerant attitude towards Terribles too, but I don't.
Quote: FaceQuote: AyecarumbaWell, there's always the case of crooked bingo at Barona in California. I don't think, "Indian Gaming" has ever recovered from that black eye.
Quote: AyecarumbaLike this story from the FBI's website about a ring of crooked dealers (who started in Indian Casinos with weak protection) working with accomplices to take advantage of pre-sorted sequences of cards in shoes. In this case the casinos were victims of crooked personnel, but isn't that always going to be the case. While I think the vast, vast majority of legal casinos in the U.S. have no need to cheat customers with underhanded gadgets, the lack of oversight noted when these stories do come out regarding crooked employees at Indian casinos doesn't fill me with confidence.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I wouldn't fault you a bit if you choose not to patronize a tribal casino. I'm just trying to figure out the stigma behind some of the comments, specifically the ones that state that the tribe, through use of the casino, is ripping someone off. Your first example looks to be the work of a shady employee, done for his benefit. It is certainly not a case of the tribe participating in any action that would short a player for their gain. The second one with the Tran orginization, those guys were running that scam for years in Asian casinos and made off with many more millions than the relatively paltry sum they got in the States. And besides, their deal affected the players in no way whatsoever, that was a scam against the casino.
Yes, I'm probably being defensive, but I also truely don't see where the concern is. In my personal experience, any gaming issue is handled jointly by the tribe and the state, and any legal issue is handled by County Sheriffs, State Police, and in some cases, the Secret Service and FBI, and I just don't see how the idea that tribal casinos are somehow lawless came to be.
For the most part, I think that the Indian Casinos are run on the up and up. There isn't really any reason to mess with RNG's or shuffling machines when you are already pulling in billions.
However, there is the problem with the "image". For me, it is related to the lack of accountability that comes with being considered "sovereign". See this article for a long, but pretty complete description of what I am getting at. The controls and oversight employed by the government on non-indian casinos, do not directly apply. The non-tribal gambling public is called on to trust in regulatory systems that may have been set up with the intention that they perform in a similar fashion to the Nevada or New Jersey systems, but in fact, are not accountable to the citizenry since the non-tribal public has no say in who sits on the boards, or what decisions they make. If there were allegations of the misuse of public monies, we could vote someone out of office. Instead, we had to deal with the Seminole's David Cypress.
Quote: SOOPOOHelp me out, forum. Is there a blackjack game where you have to pay a fee for the right to play the game? And people complain about 6:5?
In my wildest dreams I could not envision playing ONE hand where I had to pay an 'ante'. Yuma- it is possible you have had disproportionately bad hands, but if you are really paying an 'ante' you have NO CHANCE.
Kinda off topic for this thread but.......For any gamblers out there that used to play in the Seattle area and remember when the gambling laws first passed around 1997 and anyone could open up a card room. Kennmore Lanes bowling ally was one of the first places to have blackjack tables on the eastside. They Used to have a 50 cent ante per hand but....You were not playing against house money. In other words the house was not the bank....
They used to have 4 tables. The limit was $5-$25 bets. And anyone could be the banker. You had to put up at least $500 bank roll. And you could choose to quit after each shoe was completed(6 deck shoe). I did it a couple of times and broke about even. The house could care less if the players won or lost it wasn't there money either way they were just collecting 50 cents a hand antes. It was cool to be banker there was always a line of people waiting to be bankers on the weekends LOL.
Most casinos wouldn't risk their license and negative publicity for a few percentage points on blackjack. The real money is made in the machines in most jurisdictions; tables are an afterthought. I see some incidents cited, but they are generally crooked staff taking advantage of poor operational controls.
In Oklahoma, there would be no reason that the house would want to cheat a player; quite the opposite in fact. That jurisdiction is a "Player Banked" jurisdiction, which means that all the winning (execpt for a small % of operating cost) must be returned to the players in some form of prize. That is why they collect a commission on each hand (and with that, they make more money off players than they could by scamming them). cheating a player only to give his winnings to another player sound logical???
Once gaming is legalized in Texas, that jurisdiction will probably have to conform to traditional house-banked games, like in vegas and other real table game casinos. IMHO, until then, if anyone loses money playing in that state, they got what they deserved.
Stop it milton!
Quote: benbakdoffI flagged the post that is/was directly above this one because miltonwinston is dropping online links again. I purposely didn't quote it so that when it disappears it won't be seen in my reply. There was nothing in the link about the topic of this thread.
Stop it milton!
Yes, but you visited the link so he got his affiliate fee...
Quote: MathExtremistYes, but you visited the link so he got his affiliate fee...
I did visit the link but it won't happen again. From now on I'll just use my flagging privilege and that goes for the other two identities that I suspect this poster of using.
I COUNT CARDS AND THESE AUTO SHUFFLERS ARE TERRIBLE!!! I WILL NEVER GO TO THESE CASINOS AGAIN
If you play 100 hands at $10 a hand, for $1,050 of action, expect to lose $50 + $20. If you're dumb enough to play a blackjack game with a $.50 commission per hand, you're also dumb enough to stay on a 12 vs a 2, double 8s, not hit soft 18s vs a 10, stay on 15 vs a 7... enough to add another 2 percent to the HA, so $90 over 100 hands. If you play for 4 hours, you're playing about 300 hands, and you could expect to lose $270, which is alot.
Even at perfect play at $10 / hand, you're still playing at a 7% house advantage. With 7% HA ($10/hand), your expected return over 100 hands is -$61.95. 95% of the time (2 standard deviations) you would expect a return between -$276 and $152. If you manage to last 300 hands (4 hours), the expected loss if $186 with a 95% expectancy of between -$557 and $186 and a chance of gain of only 15.9%. So no wonder everyone is losing. Only 1 of six players will come out as winners in that scenario.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/5964-scamming-shufflemasters/
I can't figure out how to make the links, so you'll have to copy and paste.
Quote: Texas110477I agree, I go to choctaw and winstar, these auto shuffling shoes are terrible, i was in winstar for 9 hours sat 7/30, NOONE WAS AHEAD, i played over 15 tables, each table i played at EVERYONE LOST.
I COUNT CARDS AND THESE AUTO SHUFFLERS ARE TERRIBLE!!! I WILL NEVER GO TO THESE CASINOS AGAIN
Erm.....?!!!
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AUTOSHUFFLERS. IT HAS TO DO WITH THE .50 A HAND THAT YOU GIVE AWAY EACH TIME YOU PLAY. AT $10/HAND, THATS 5% YOU'RE GIVING AWAY IMMEDIATELY, WITH VERY LITTLE VARIANCE.
Sorry for the all caps, but I can't imagine any one with intelligence going to WinStar or any blackjack table in OK and expect to come ahead. Your only hope is to play at the black level ($100 / hand) and try to overcome the 1.5% advantage through luck and get the hell out of there when you're ahead of the curve.
Here:Quote: JuniorWizI can't figure out how to make the links, so you'll have to copy and paste.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/5964-scamming-shufflemasters/
To make your own clickable link, click on the link at the bottom of a post dialog box (or this link) that says: Click here for formatting codes.
The short answer is, put link tags around it, like so:
[link=http://www.whatever.com]Click here[/link].
Quote: thlfI worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.
WELL, IF THEY ARE EXACTLY AS YOU SEE THEM, THEN THEY ARE RIGGED! HI POSITIVE COUNT HIGH BETS HARDLY EVER WORK
Quote: FaceFor the most part, I think that the Indian Casinos are run on the up and up.
That is a basically unwarranted conclusion. Certainly at least until the Indian casinos or any individual Indian casino hires independent outside auditors and publicly releases the results of said audits.
Quote: JuniorWizWELL, IF THEY ARE EXACTLY AS YOU SEE THEM, THEN THEY ARE RIGGED! HI POSITIVE COUNT HIGH BETS HARDLY EVER WORK
And part of my evidence is that many casinos with the flush-mounted Deck-Mate shufflemasters take no action against counters
Quote: SanchoPanzaThat is a basically unwarranted conclusion. Certainly at least until the Indian casinos or any individual Indian casino hires independent outside auditors and publicly releases the results of said audits.
There have been an awful lot of cases of embezzlement. My friends were in on a bad beat at one, and the casino didn't want to pay them. They met with the commission that was on site for several hours, and finally got paid.
Quote: thlfI worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=113576&sid=33179264&con_type=3
Quote: matildahttp://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=113576&sid=33179264&con_type=3
Interesting story, but there's a meaningful difference between rigging a shuffle to be biased and peeking at an unbiased shuffle. The cheats in your story did the latter. It's the high-tech equivalent of using a shiner, but using a shiner isn't the same as rigging the shuffle.
Quote: thlfI worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.
Then that would be a machine that makes anything but a random shuffle that clumps the highs and lows together and screws up the AP.
If I take the card, I bust. I think the government
should investigate the casino's mind control instead of beaming those " Vote Democraic" infer red rays into my house.
Quote: BuzzardI am just amazed at the mind control abilities of CSM's. I mean they know when I am going to take a card at third base or not. Every, and I mean every time, I decide not to take a dealers bust card, it is a little card.
If I take the card, I bust. I think the government
should investigate the casino's mind control instead of beaming those " Vote Democraic" infer red rays into my house.
Dammit, Buzz! You weren't supposed to talk about the vast left-wing conspiracy! Now we have to kill you.
Seriously, while working at AT&T, besides fixing telecom troubles, I would also help the clerks with troubled customers
And I do mean troubled. People concerned with the FBI tapping their phones, or neighbors hearing their conversations over the
phone while it was on the hook etc.
And the Indians who complained we were blocking circuits to India on weekends to make them call at higher rates during the week.
Their proof, the recordings were from USA and not India. Maybe 1 in 10 understood when I explained with out of band signalling, we did not have to tie up a trunk to give him a busy signal from India. But the other 9 were still adamant.
Gee, I had fun. And as a shop steward, I could always tweak management from time to time. And I got paid too. LOL
In this talk, Persi Diaconis from Stanford talks about ShuffleMaster hiring him to find out if the shuffler was exploitable. I believe they did make changes based on his expertise .. I recommend start listening at 8 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAxEzxHkqyY
Quote: FarFromVegasDammit, Buzz! You weren't supposed to talk about the vast left-wing conspiracy! Now we have to kill you.
NOOO! It's from the left and the right!! The Freemasons and Illuminati are in on it too!! AAAHHH!
Quote: JuniorWizThen that would be a machine that makes anything but a random shuffle that clumps the highs and lows together and screws up the AP.
In life, the only thing that is truly random is in nature. A dealer shuffling cards by hand is truly random. BUT there isn't a computer designed that has a truly random number, they are just overly complicated algorithms. I've been writing software and administering servers for over twenty years, so I know this to be true.
The notion that for a blackjack game to be rigged by the order of the cards is not as ridiculous as someone might think. And I'll explain why:
Anyone that has played long enough in the game of blackjack knows certain things need to happen in order to gain even a slight edge. First thing you need is a decent spread every once in a while. This is where an experienced player takes advantage knowing where the higher valued cards are more likely to be by keeping track of a deck. And for the non experienced, this is where they usually win or lose and don't know why. Now with that said, a machine could very easily make sure that the cards are spread so that the count never gets very high or low either way. This would in also eliminate a card counter by creating a more predictable back and fourth shoe. It wouldn't matter who takes a hit or how the deck is cut, the cards will still be more evenly distributed, But considering the High Low and neutral cards, the deck would not be predictable to any advantage other than being able to predict that it is going to be a bad shoe. So there, no matter who takes a hit, the card count will never change.
Now secondly, what most people never seem to add into the mix is that the dealer always goes last, thus giving the edge to the house. Even if the dealer busts, as long as the player busted also, the dealer wins. So the fact is, the dealer is the only player on the table that can bust and still win because he immediately took all the players money that busted before him. So to create a shoe where everyone will likely get stiff hands including the dealer is a huge plus for the house. So the fact is, the cards don't have to be stacked in the dealers favor for the shoe to be bad for the players. The house doesn't care how many times a dealer gets a bad hand, as long as the players get them also. You will never know that hole card until all players have made thier play, and if you busted, it doesn't matter if the dealer busted, you still lose.
If you notice, the casinos that are the hardest to beat are the ones that makes sure the tables are full all the time, even if they have to close as many tables as possible to make that happen they will. The theory in this is that the more people playing then more hands are in play for the house which means the more money. But with an auto shuffler, this would make sure that if cards of similar values (highs and lows) are grouped tighter together, then they would produce more stiff hands across the table. Remember, it doesn't matter if the dealer gets a bad hand as long as the players get them also, it's still in his advantage. with a full table it is easier to create bad hands by clumping more cards together, and I'm not talking just highs and lows, add the neutrals in the mix. And you think well, that means I have an idea of what card I might get? No, you don't, that's the beauty of it.
Way back before the computers, Ken Uston,(probably the most brilliant person to ever play the game) noticed a pattern at the MGM casino and went to his room to duplicate and found that a shoe that had not been washed before dealing gave a similar pattern and realized because of the house edge(dealer going last) that it was devastating to the player. The highs and lows weren't mixed and in a full deal created a bunch of stiff hands. If Ken only knew that computers could do this in the future!
Now lets look at the technology: The shufflemaster, in it's patents speaks of language like "any predetermined order" and some even put the cards back in order when the table is done. That doesn't sound to me like it can't do what is described above. And also why a RNG(random number generator) or optical card recognition if it supposedly uses a haphazzard mechanism?... because simply put, it doesn't. And remember, the technology knows how many people are sitting at the table because of the built in smarts on the table itself. This is how they keep track of how many people are playing and at what spots. And last, they claim the machines are only better for the casino because there is no downtime for shuffling. While this IS true, if the rest is also true then they are getting a double advantage.
So lets see what happens if a new shoe comes out, is cut and then 5 of the six people get up and leave only one to play. Again it doesn't matter, because you're at no advantage to the dealer with a pretty even count all the way through.
Now, last. All I ever hear is that casinos make way too much money and would never risk trying to gain an extra edge. This is far from from the truth. In Louisiana at just one casino earlier this year, over 40 people lost their jobs just on the floor alone. The economy, weather, competition and a zillion other factors can effect a casino just like any other business. Something has to pay for all those fancy lights, marble walls, free drinks, free rooms, etc. With that said, technology such as slots and video poker(machines in general) are the casinos bread and butter because they are programmed to make sure the take is consistent for the house. Table games have always been unpredictable for casinos. Although simply because of the odds, they will come out ahead, there are times when a table can simply lose money in a bad night. This is the only spot where they can essentially take a hit. And not because of cheating or advantage players, etc. They just didn't beat the odds that were ironically on thier side. In the southern states such as MS and LA, the public profit reports shows months where the income wasn't nearly as good as expected, which in turn cost profits, jobs and tax revenue.
So No they wouldn't cheat, because they have too much too lose, but they will execute any legal means whatsoever to gain an edge. And if this means using a machine that could possibly shuffle cards that are more consistent for the casino, then yes they would definitely do so. I personally, feel that these machines should not be legal simply because I feel they are misleading people into thinking it's the same as a dealer shuffle, when in fact they are not. (Humans don't use RNGs). But who are you going to tell that to? the gaming commission? In reality, they're just another tax collector. But still, I would voice concern to them regardless.
My solution is for everyone to just refuse to play anything but a hand shuffled shoe. Even if it means going elsewhere to play. That way, we all know what we are presented with.
By definition the shuffle master is a rig so the game is rigged with a device designed for a specific purpose. When I do stroll around the local casinos, 90% of the time I walk past the machine dealt blackjack to see all the players having pat hands and lose. Alot of the time the dealer has a blackjack.
Every pit, every game has a computer nearby. With player's being ID by a number and FR software and even RFID chips, Anything attached to a machine is sketchy. The machines can be programmed to deal 58 different games. This can include being programmed for a stand on soft 17 or hit soft 17. Then there is this thing called "plausible deniability".
Quote: IbeatyouracesBut there is one thing you do that will thwart any "rigging" the machine may have. It has no clue how you'll play the hand.
I've always wondered about this in regards to baccarat since players have no role in the outcome.
Quote: IbeatyouracesTrue, but the machine has no idea what way you'll bet either.
That's true, but I've always wondered what the results would be if someone stacked the deck so that it followed some weird (non-random) pattern. Oh well.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMy guess is it would be the same as if it were in a random pattern.
For the average bac player, I would definitely agree, but hardcore bac players (e.g., gr8player) have a really weird way of thinking. For example, if the deck was stacked so that there were, say, 15 Players in a row immediately followed by 15 Bankers and then back to 15 Players, I bet a lot of those hardcore bac guys would get killed.
(For the record, I've only been worried about stacked decks at certain Indian casinos. I've never had any such worries at Nevada casinos.)
It is not a very high +EV game. There are two large advantages though.....
1) Nobody will question you if you spread 20 units or larger as "it is a shuffle machine, nobody can beat it"
2) The technique is not very well proven but it is incredibly easy.
I don't think you could make a living from it but you could enjoy a few hands and spread your bets without worrying about heat?
I'm not sure if this is reallyw aht this thread is about, I just thought I would give my penny's worth :)
Quote: 3102yumaI have made my last trip to Winstar Casino in Thackerville in Oklahoma. I have played blackjack for 30 years all over the country, but never at the Indian Casinos. I have won and lost, and admit to being somewhat of a sore loser. I have come to the conclusion you simply cannot win there. When I sit at a table, eventually everybody ends up disgusted from losing over and over and leave. It seems like know one wins. I wander if there are any former pit bosses from Vegas that work there and through their years of experience can see that something is just not right. It is uncanny how many blackjacks, aces up in a row that the dealers get. They crack me up when they put on what seems to be an act that they are so suprised by all their blackjacks, standing 20's, and hitting and not busting. I wish I had kept statistics on the percentage of hands I win. What I am sure of is that I can play 75-150 hands and maybe win three hands in a row during that stretch of playing. I can play 50 hands and never see a two-card 20 until the dealer has the samething. It does not matter if I am playing at a table with six decks or tables where they re-shuffle once they get through about two decks.
I cannnot go there and even play a leisurely game at the $5.00 minimum table. We just seem to lose and lose and lose. I want to repeat that I am a very experienced player, aware of bad streaks and the possibility of losing 10,15 or more hands in a row. But this is rediculous. I wrote the gaming commission, but I am already aware of the setup in Oklahoma and know it will fall upon deaf ears.
Could the machines be set up where once 'card-rich' hands that lean towards the house began to be shuffled into the machines in away that really increase the houses chance of winning. I play almost 99% by the mathmatics of the game.
i truly believe that one day it will be proven that somehow those shuffling machines are rigged.
Not one more .50 cent ante from me. I am done.
The machines can be programmed for different games. That's enough to keep me away. Why risk it'
Quote: lacasinoman
The notion that for a blackjack game to be rigged by the order of the cards is not as ridiculous as someone might think. And I'll explain why:
If you notice, the casinos that are the hardest to beat are the ones that makes sure the tables are full all the time, even if they have to close as many tables as possible to make that happen they will. The theory in this is that the more people playing then more hands are in play for the house which means the more money. But with an auto shuffler, this would make sure that if cards of similar values (highs and lows) are grouped tighter together, then they would produce more stiff hands across the table. Remember, it doesn't matter if the dealer gets a bad hand as long as the players get them also, it's still in his advantage. with a full table it is easier to create bad hands by clumping more cards together, and I'm not talking just highs and lows, add the neutrals in the mix. And you think well, that means I have an idea of what card I might get? No, you don't, that's the beauty of it.
So lets see what happens if a new shoe comes out, is cut and then 5 of the six people get up and leave only one to play. Again it doesn't matter, because you're at no advantage to the dealer with a pretty even count all the way through.
My solution is for everyone to just refuse to play anything but a hand shuffled shoe. Even if it means going elsewhere to play. That way, we all know what we are presented with.
Those are just a few excerpts from the most informative post that I have ever read.
It very much describes my recent stiff hand marathon experience at two AZ casinos.
In both casinos the cards were only auto shuffled.
Never again.
Quote: AxelWolfI don't think dealers properly shuffle the cards, especially in poker games
Game protection seems to be weak for live poker. You can see many cards being flashed before a shuffle and during the game. Could be huge if you know a Queen is on the bottom of the deck.
If thats the most informative post you have ever read,you really need to read more.
That post is filled with voodoo nonsense. Even if what lacasinoman said were true,there would be so many ways to overcome it.
Also as Ibeatyouraces said the machine does not know how you will play your hand. Just as an example you are dealt a pair of fours,are you going to split them or hit
them or double down? The machine can`t know.
Quote: TomspurI'm sure most of you guys know this but the shuffle machines have been "tracked" successfully (even thought he algorythms have since been fixed) AND shuffling machines can be counted.
It is not a very high +EV game. There are two large advantages though.....
1) Nobody will question you if you spread 20 units or larger as "it is a shuffle machine, nobody can beat it"
2) The technique is not very well proven but it is incredibly easy.
I don't think you could make a living from it but you could enjoy a few hands and spread your bets without worrying about heat?
I'm not sure if this is reallyw aht this thread is about, I just thought I would give my penny's worth :)
You are confusing CSM with ASM.
CSM: Continuous Shuffling Machine. Continuously shuffles the cards as they are played, yielding a game that is impossible (or highly unprofitable) to count, since it's effectively a game with half a deck or so penetration (depending on how long the dealer lets the discards pile up).
ASM: Automatic Shuffling Machine. Automates the process of shuffling a full 6-deck shoe (or 4-deck, or 2-deck, or whatever). Resultant shuffled cards are placed into the shoe and dealt like normal, to a preset cut card. Just as countable as a traditional hand-shuffled game, but not shuffle-trackable for the "advanced" APs.
Most of this thread is about ASMs and the possibility that they are "stacking" the deck in favor of the house via any number of nefarious, and yet unproven schemes.
Quote: thlfI worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.
I haven't run all the way back through the thread, but it's one that has interested me before, and I thought this was worth bringing forward. It was posted more than 2 years ago.
Quote: beachbumbabsI haven't run all the way back through the thread, but it's one that has interested me before, and I thought this was worth bringing forward. It was posted more than 2 years ago.
No. It's a paranoid myth that causes casinos to have to offer shoe games to customers who do not trust machines. So casinos can't get rid of the counters because these paranoid people draw conclusions with no reason, yet casinos will not educate the public cuz they don't want a bunch of professors at the gambling table. Machines are sometimes preceived as rigged because there is no manual shuffling; therefore, people lose X dollars in less time at a machine than at a shoe game.
Quote: BizzyBNo. It's a paranoid myth that causes casinos to have to offer shoe games to customers who do not trust machines. So casinos can't get rid of the counters because these paranoid people draw conclusions with no reason, yet casinos will not educate the public cuz they don't want a bunch of professors at the gambling table. Machines are sometimes preceived as rigged because there is no manual shuffling; therefore, people lose X dollars in less time at a machine than at a shoe game.
I'm not sure that you and I are talking about the same thing. In reference to whether the SHFL machines sort hands to benefit the house (the OP), and only on that question, someone with a fair amount of knowledge weighed in. I, perhaps in error, did not read the entire thread before bringing this information forward, which is why I made the comment I did. No other reference to where it has gone in the present is intended.
Now having read the entire thread, I think it is pertinent to the discussion still, but you appear to be addressing a different point of that same discussion.
Quote: AcesAndEightsYou are confusing CSM with ASM.
CSM: Continuous Shuffling Machine. Continuously shuffles the cards as they are played, yielding a game that is impossible (or highly unprofitable) to count, since it's effectively a game with half a deck or so penetration (depending on how long the dealer lets the discards pile up).
ASM: Automatic Shuffling Machine. Automates the process of shuffling a full 6-deck shoe (or 4-deck, or 2-deck, or whatever). Resultant shuffled cards are placed into the shoe and dealt like normal, to a preset cut card. Just as countable as a traditional hand-shuffled game, but not shuffle-trackable for the "advanced" APs.
Most of this thread is about ASMs and the possibility that they are "stacking" the deck in favor of the house via any number of nefarious, and yet unproven schemes.
I am most certainly not cunfusing the two, in fact I know both very, very well.
There was a case a few years back in Macau where a gentleman of South African decent (I believe he was a musician) managed to track how the cards would come out in a CSM (Continuous shuffling machine) by listening to the machines internal workings. He apparetnly practiced at home (he had one) for a while and managed to find out how the sequencing of cards went with that particular brand of CSM. He figured out that, due to a defect with the algorythms of the shuffle machine, the same two cards always preceeded the dealing of an ACE. He sat in first base and when he knew the first card dealt would be an ACE he would increase his bet. Obviously this gives him a substantial advantage over the game.
He was caught but he didn't cheat, he was simply a skilled AP.
SHFL has in the interim recalled those shufflers and fixed the faulty algorythm.
Also CSM's can be counted too.............
In closing I know what an ASM is as well, they save the casino on time and motion issues but i have never seen one shuffle in a way that would stack the deck either for the house or against the house, then again I have not yet investigated all brands and all types.
I do have a little bit of experience in this field you know :)
