Can you openly use printed copies or the wizards video poker strategies in the casinos?

Going to casinos in Tunica Mississippi this weekend. Have only been to casinos once in Vegas so Im not that versed in casio rules.

Can you openly use printed copies or the wizards video poker strategies in the casinos?

Personally, I laminate them and use them as drink coasters in my garage :) But yes, it is allowed to use any non-electronic items at a vp machine in Tunica.

I agree with Rob. I've used strategy cards at the machines lots of times.

I once had a waitress at the Plaza make fun of me for using one. I decided not to make fun of her for working at the Plaza. I wanted my drink.

I had heard once that a casino may cancel your comps if they see you using one, but I find that unlikely. Maybe they would care at the higher denominations.

Quote: dudestupid

I once had a waitress at the Plaza make fun of me for using one. I decided not to make fun of her for working at the Plaza. I wanted my drink.

I had heard once that a casino may cancel your comps if they see you using one, but I find that unlikely. Maybe they would care at the higher denominations.

I went thru this in detail with some LV casino managers for an article I did maybe 6 years ago. At the time, because Bob Dancer was teaching classes on long-term strategy methods and being paid to do so by multiple casinos, I decided to do a little research. When his classes completed, I went to each casino manager and asked them if I could now teach my short-term playing strategy in similar classes--and I'd do it free of charge.

I was denied each time and the reason was always the same: They wanted players who would sit and play for hours like Bob does, and they do not want players getting up and leaving after hitting some kind of goals. That's when I also inquired about the use of strategy cards, computers, cell phones, etc. at the machines, and once again the input was unanimous. All strategy cards and help sheets were OK, but electronics were a no-no. The denomination was never mentioned, and since cards are allowed at machines then there would be no cancellation of comps--either earned or about to be earned.

I've had no problem with strategy cards at the machines.

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Quote: gofaster87

Ive actually seen banks get reduced pay schedules because management (in conversation with employees) saw strategy cards being used.

I'm not sure that makes sense. If management didn't allow the practice they'd make it known instead of having pay tables changed and chancing losing other more versed players. If this was in LV recently and if you don't mind identifying where it is, I still have many slot & casino management contacts in town and I could get a current reading on the issue.

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Quote: gofaster87

Ive never heard of an establishment advertising anything such as "no written strategies at VP machines" much like they don't have signs at the tables saying "No Counting." If they see many people using strategy cards at a specific bank Im sure management is going to figure there is some advantage to the player cutting into the house advantage. Im not going to name casinos or employees but these things do happen. By the way it wasn't very recent. As to your quote on losing versed players, do you mind me asking why then the M resort destroyed its inventory of VP machines? They reduced the machines in the high limit as well with crap such as 7/5 BP and 9/6 DB. I know you have an "in" with management there. Im not a pro AP but I wont play at a place that lowers their high limit schedules to those of a quarter level machine. They could have just excluded or lowered the cashback on these machines.

This is what I said, and not that they'd advertise anything in writing: "If management didn't allow the practice they'd make it known". In other words, it would be similar to how no card counting is allowed. No signs, no ads, just a known policy.

Casinos like the M, the Reserve, Suncoast, Rampart, Hard Rock, and many others have eliminated 100%+ vp games and/or lowered pay tables, but the reason why is completely opposite what many people like to speculate about. And to show how doing so really doesn't keep the higher limit players away, read Bob Dancer's column about how he was reeled in to play for a $40,000 Range Rover and lost $80,000 in the process after all the +EV slot club benefits he could possibly squeeze into it were accounted for. Reduced pay tables are cause for moaning and groaning, but they only keep the most disciplined of players away.

I did a column after the Reserve cut all its pay tables a year after opening, then another when Suncoast did so and again after Casino Monte Lago followed suit, because I interviewed each of the casino managers about why. Naturally, the vp community gets enraged at this practice so it was a worthwhile story to pursue.

One constant when this occurs is that the video poker gurus who write columns or post on the vp forums immediately come out and proclaim how "the pros have been hammerring the machines to death so the casino had no choice but to lower the pay tables....or close their doors". True sensationalism at its best, and almost certain newbie-grabbing for the purpose of them buying all the vp trinkets one can sell.

However, upon interviewing each casino I always got the same response as to why. Casinos are a business and the floor managers not only must make a profit off of each machine on the floor (if ANY individual machine is not profitable then it immediately gets removed as soon as it is discovered) they have to answer to the suits upstairs, who always want more in the form of profit margin. One of the first ways for casinos to do this is to reduce pay tables, and that is why it gets done. Not because anyone's raping the machines--that's always total nonsense. Again, any machine that loses money gets removed fast. And contrary to the myth that machines will get played less if the pay tables are reduced, that has shown to be true to a point, but at the same time they make more money overall over time.

Several years ago when I convinced Wynn to install 25c/50c/$1 FPDW machines on their floor, they were removed about a month later, not because the so-called "pros" were beating the hell out of them (as they liked to proclaim for self-confidence building and business related reasons) but because teams of local players were hogging all those machines and players who came in as hotel guests from out-of-town and waited to get a seat, just couldn't so they complained to management. I tried to get mgmt. to nix their policy of holding machines for players who wanted to go eat or rest but they refused. Mgmt. also had a problem with people gobbling tuna sandwiches, sipping soups, or slurping noodles at the machines because it didn't fit their first class image. Thus they were removed or had pay tables lowered.

In a follow-up article just a month after this, I reported that more money was made from the full-pay machines than from the same machines after the pay tables were cut. Why? Because of the non-stop massive amount of play they got, which is very unusual even for full-pay machines. Remember, 1% of $10million is better than 2% of $2million.

I've used my strategy card at several of the St. Louis area casinos and have never had a problem. I usually keep it in my shirt pocket and only take it out for quick reference.

Quote: RobSinger

This is what I said, and not that they'd advertise anything in writing: "If management didn't allow the practice they'd make it known". In other words, it would be similar to how no card counting is allowed. No signs, no ads, just a known policy.

Casinos like the M, the Reserve, Suncoast, Rampart, Hard Rock, and many others have eliminated 100%+ vp games and/or lowered pay tables, but the reason why is completely opposite what many people like to speculate about. And to show how doing so really doesn't keep the higher limit players away, read Bob Dancer's column about how he was reeled in to play for a $40,000 Range Rover and lost $80,000 in the process after all the +EV slot club benefits he could possibly squeeze into it were accounted for. Reduced pay tables are cause for moaning and groaning, but they only keep the most disciplined of players away.

I did a column after the Reserve cut all its pay tables a year after opening, then another when Suncoast did so and again after Casino Monte Lago followed suit, because I interviewed each of the casino managers about why. Naturally, the vp community gets enraged at this practice so it was a worthwhile story to pursue.

One constant when this occurs is that the video poker gurus who write columns or post on the vp forums immediately come out and proclaim how "the pros have been hammerring the machines to death so the casino had no choice but to lower the pay tables....or close their doors". True sensationalism at its best, and almost certain newbie-grabbing for the purpose of them buying all the vp trinkets one can sell.

However, upon interviewing each casino I always got the same response as to why. Casinos are a business and the floor managers not only must make a profit off of each machine on the floor (if ANY individual machine is not profitable then it immediately gets removed as soon as it is discovered) they have to answer to the suits upstairs, who always want more in the form of profit margin. One of the first ways for casinos to do this is to reduce pay tables, and that is why it gets done. Not because anyone's raping the machines--that's always total nonsense. Again, any machine that loses money gets removed fast. And contrary to the myth that machines will get played less if the pay tables are reduced, that has shown to be true to a point, but at the same time they make more money overall over time.

Several years ago when I convinced Wynn to install 25c/50c/$1 FPDW machines on their floor, they were removed about a month later, not because the so-called "pros" were beating the hell out of them (as they liked to proclaim for self-confidence building and business related reasons) but because teams of local players were hogging all those machines and players who came in as hotel guests from out-of-town and waited to get a seat, just couldn't so they complained to management. I tried to get mgmt. to nix their policy of holding machines for players who wanted to go eat or rest but they refused. Mgmt. also had a problem with people gobbling tuna sandwiches, sipping soups, or slurping noodles at the machines because it didn't fit their first class image. Thus they were removed or had pay tables lowered.

In a follow-up article just a month after this, I reported that more money was made from the full-pay machines than from the same machines after the pay tables were cut. Why? Because of the non-stop massive amount of play they got, which is very unusual even for full-pay machines. Remember, 1% of $10million is better than 2% of $2million.

I need to go lay down and have wife take my temperature. I actually have to admit to being in total agreement with Rob Singer.

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Quote: RobSinger

Several years ago when I convinced Wynn to install 25c/50c/$1 FPDW machines on their floor, they were removed about a month later, not because the so-called "pros" were beating the hell out of them (as they liked to proclaim for self-confidence building and business related reasons) but because teams of local players were hogging all those machines and players who came in as hotel guests from out-of-town and waited to get a seat, just couldn't so they complained to management.

Rob, I found confirmation of your story (see below) dated only a few months after Wynn opened. It is my understanding that FPDW when properly played have a payout of 100.76%. I assume that the casino was making money on these teams because of player error.

Quote: Open Vegas

23 August 2005
Wynn officials said the machines will remain on the floor, although "team play" has forced them to reduce the deuces wild paytable by "one notch." "We’re dropping the table down to a 99.96% rate," Ray Germain, assistant slot manager, told GamingToday. "The teams that have monopolized the machines created an undesirable situation in which our regular customers were unable to play the machines."
From today's Gaming Today: http://www.slotstodayonline.com/newi...634&AIN=572628 (link is now broken)

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Quote: pacomartin

Rob, I found confirmation of your story (see below) dated only a few months after Wynn opened. It is my understanding that FPDW when properly played have a payout of 100.76%. I assume that the casino was making money on these teams because of player error.

Yes, and thank you for that. Also, yes on Wynn making money on the FPDW machines, and if the machines were 100% random, which I'll assume they were, then it had to be player error. That's really not hard to understand given the ungodly number of hours those players played. I saw the profit reports and the machines made slightly less than 1%. I also watched some of them play overnight as well as during the day, and I saw several fall asleep as they played. It was a little funny as an observer.

That 99.96% special DW pay table was something I came up with that wasn't available anywhere else. My point to Wynn was that if they had something just under 100% the games would be played almost as much, but not obsessively as much as teams would, as if they were just over 100% because of slot club benefits. I got that one right.

Quote: pacomartin

"The teams that have monopolized the machines created an undesirable situation in which our regular customers were unable to play the machines.".

Hey hey, there's got to be nothing more regular than a bunch of players sitting on the machines 24x7... regular as clock work.

Quote: RobSinger

That 99.96% special DW pay table was something I came up with that wasn't available anywhere else. My point to Wynn was that if they had something just under 100% the games would be played almost as much, but not obsessively as much as teams would, as if they were just over 100% because of slot club benefits. I got that one right.

I read that in Japan the pachinko parlors were putting ringers on the floor that were set as high as 150%. However, people would figure out which machine was a ringer and fights would break out. It seems to me that even if you did some of the machines at 100%, then you still have the possibility of a fight because people believe that they found a ringer. In the case of FPDW you know it's a good machine by looking at the pay table.

It seems to me that with networked machines you could have lights go off announcing that for the next half hour that this machine is a ringer. You could only select from machines that are currently being played so there is not a fight. It would be an incentive for people to keep playing so they are eligible to be selected.

The question is how would you make a machine 100% payback and would you tell the player. You could do it by increasing the number of dollar for dollar wins, or you could increase the big bonus to a certain amount so that the payback is 100%. The latter way would be more dramatic since the player would watch the jackpot go up to several times its normal size.

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Here's something interesting I submitted to M, who rejected it, and Aliante Station last summer. They at first loved it and were going to give it a go, but because of their financial problems the lawyers made it a no-go close to kick-off.

Aliante has a lot of the latest generation HD widescreen 5-level 25c/50c/$1/$2/$5 multi-game machines in their casino. They either were or are in process of setting up their off-the-floor control via fibre optics. We were going to announce a start date & time where there would be 6 such machines somewhere on the floor that would have FPDW, FPJW, 10/7DBP, 10/6DDBP, 9/7TDBP, 10/6JoB, 8/6BP, & 9/5SDBP IN ALL FIVE DENOMINATIONS for exactly 4 hours, after which they would go down immediately after the final hand is played and restart with their normal <100% pay tables. At that time, 6 other machines unknown to any of the floor people would come on-line with this set of games for four hours, etc. etc. etc. Theoretically there would be no end to this cycle.

This would defeat the team play concept, it would really make the place a livey hopping joint, and it would allow Joe local to find one of the machines and give it a go. It would have made the casino probably the most popular in the city and get visitors in from all over town to their out-of-the-way location. You could literally be sitting at a machine at 10pm and BAM! it changes paytables right before your eyes to ones not seen in years.

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It's not just the average Joe I'd say. It would attract many of the local AP's who'd probably drag their families and ex-wives there with them to grab a seat and wait until bewitching hour to see if they get one of the lucky machines. It would have been interesting, at least for a while. But I think it would have been a big success for them also.

I think this is true. MotorCity in Detroit recently put in a whole room of video poker machines, like $0.01 hundred-play 9/6 Jacks, heavily publicized it, and then it was totally gone in about six weeks. It just wasn't profitable enough. People were playing $.05 at a time on a 99% paytable. They were replaced with new-fangled penny slots.

Last I read the average bet on penny slots was 73 cents. No wonder casino's love them

I've kept out my strategy sheet at video poker and nobody seemed to care before. My guess is that nobody is getting a bonus from the casino for giving somebody a hard time about using a piece of paper at a machine. One person cutting the odds is not going to break the bank considering 95% of people to who just sit down and play and give their money away.

Most of the concern about a strategy sheet at a blackjack table is that it is a foreign object which might be shiny or have a fiber optics camera looking at the bottom card or something. If the floor sees that you are using one of those gift shop strategy cards, they don't care.

At a VP machine, what is the risk of a strategy card? Slow play? It won't affect the outcome of play at all so they are not particularly worried about anything.

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Quote: gofaster87

Most of the strip casinos sell the BJ cards in their gift shop.

Very true. However, the wise gamer knows that casinos will put mistakes in their own black jack strategy cards. Then again, the wise gamer has already memorized basic strategy after much practice.

FWIW when I was at Wynn last week they were fine with me using a cheat sheet (actually a table from Wiz of Odds cut down and laminated) as long as I didn't keep it on the felt. I kept it in my pocket and referred to it as needed.

Side note: at one session last week I was sitting between two guys who were trying to impress each other talking about how many years they've played BJ and their skill at the game, war stories, etc. In the middle of this dick-measuring match I surrendered a hand (per basic strategy). They both stopped, looked at me like I came from Mars, and asked "what did you just do?" I told them that I surrendered my hand for half my bet. One said "you can do that?" and the other said "I could never understand how to surrender." I gave them a quick summary of surrender scenarios. They were quieter for the rest of the session (*smirk*).

I don't think it's mistakes, per se, as much as them selling strategies for games that have rules that differ from what they are playing in their casino.

When I sit down at a VP machine I'll have my strategy card, plus iPod, cell phone, and drink all arranged around the machine. Nobody has ever said anything about the electronics let alone the paper.

Quote: mantic59

FWIW when I was at Wynn last week they were fine with me using a cheat sheet (actually a table from Wiz of Odds cut down and laminated) as long as I didn't keep it on the felt. I kept it in my pocket and referred to it as needed.

Side note: at one session last week I was sitting between two guys who were trying to impress each other talking about how many years they've played BJ and their skill at the game, war stories, etc. In the middle of this dick-measuring match I surrendered a hand (per basic strategy). They both stopped, looked at me like I came from Mars, and asked "what did you just do?" I told them that I surrendered my hand for half my bet. One said "you can do that?" and the other said "I could never understand how to surrender." I gave them a quick summary of surrender scenarios. They were quieter for the rest of the session (*smirk*).

Where I played (Gary, IN), it would go something like this:

I hit soft 18 vs 10:

"You messed up the flow of the cards! Why would you hit an 18? That's a winning hand! Aw man what the hell. You'll learn the hard way kid, trust me I've been playing a long time."

This would happen every 20 hands or so, with the pit boss sometimes needing to come over to settle the argument. And the dealer even sided with them at times. This is one thing I don't miss at all about blackjack at a real casino. Maybe it was just because I played with extremely low class people (Gary, IN is not a good town, but it's cheaper than gambling in IL where I live), and that in Vegas and nicer areas it doesn't happen like this, but man it was seriously like explaining colors to a blind person.

Quote: kp

When I sit down at a VP machine I'll have my strategy card, plus iPod, cell phone, and drink all arranged around the machine. Nobody has ever said anything about the electronics let alone the paper.

This.

I have been asked by dozens of dealers where I got my color WoO chart, never by a player. Once asked by pit boss to not keep it on the table.

The 'not keep it on the table' thing is because it's about the size of a playing card. They don't want it used to hide a card. Ditto for other personal belongings.

Other than that, there are no problems using strategy cards.

On that note, I have no idea why the cocktail waitresses provide a cocktail napkin as a coaster, if the pit is concerned about methods to hide cards....