JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
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February 8th, 2017 at 4:14:56 PM permalink
Courtesy of the Ohio Casino Control "Let the Consumer Beware" Commission:

January 2017:

http://casinocontrol.ohio.gov/Portals/0/Revenue%20Reports/2017/JANUARY%202017%20Casino%20Revenue%20Report.pdf

2016 by Month:

http://casinocontrol.ohio.gov/Portals/0/Revenue%20Reports/2016/DECEMBER%202016%20Casino%20Revenue%20AMENDED%20Feb2017.pdf
I remember the thirty-five sweet goodbyes; When you put me on the Wolverine up to Annandale; It was still September When your daddy was quite surprised; To find you with the working girls in the county jail; I was smoking with the boys upstairs when I Heard about the whole affair;I said oh no William and Mary won't do
tringlomane
tringlomane
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February 9th, 2017 at 12:54:49 PM permalink
I wonder how disappointed Ohio is with their numbers. The St. Louis metro area alone is close to their state wide revenue numbers.

But they also have the racinos I suppose...which are outgrossing the four full-fledged casinos. On my visit to Cincinnati in 2015, we actually did better at the racinos...haha

https://www.ohiolottery.com/assets/pdf/VLT-Revenues/2016/June/VLT-Statewide-Monthly-Revenue-Report-FY-2016.pdf
Romes
Romes
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February 9th, 2017 at 1:38:01 PM permalink
Interesting that slot payback averaged ~91-92% while table games payback to player averaged ~75-80%. Is this due to side bets, gross incompetence to basic strategies, or all of the above? I'm curious how table pay backs could possibly get down to 75%. Games like baccarat, I mean there's no "strategy mistakes" to be made there. Blackjack even if you play terribly you're still not getting down to that range.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
DRich
DRich
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February 9th, 2017 at 1:53:33 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Interesting that slot payback averaged ~91-92% while table games payback to player averaged ~75-80%. Is this due to side bets, gross incompetence to basic strategies, or all of the above? I'm curious how table pay backs could possibly get down to 75%. Games like baccarat, I mean there's no "strategy mistakes" to be made there. Blackjack even if you play terribly you're still not getting down to that range.



Just a difference in terminology. Hold for a table isn't calculated per hand like we think of it with slots (per spin). At tables it is the amount of cash dropped down the slot minus the chips cashed in at the cage. An example would be a player that buys in for $200 at BJ, plays an hour and cashes out $150. The table held 25% or $50.
Romes
Romes
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February 9th, 2017 at 1:55:12 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Just a difference in terminology. Hold for a table isn't calculated per hand like we think of it with slots (per spin). At tables it is the amount of cash dropped down the slot minus the chips cashed in at the cage. An example would be a player that buys in for $200 at BJ, plays an hour and cashes out $150. The table held 25% or $50.

Right, but over the sampling size of ALL players for an entire year shouldn't that number still move towards the "average" payback of all of the table games? If all the table games are 95%+ then wouldn't you expect this number to still be in the upper 90's and above the slot payback?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
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February 9th, 2017 at 3:04:52 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

But they also have the racinos I suppose...which are outgrossing the four full-fledged casinos. On my visit to Cincinnati in 2015, we actually did better at the racinos...haha

Yep interesting.

"AGR adjusted gross revenue" for 4 casinos = 798 mil
Net win for Racino's = 869 mil ( I'm not sure but I believe there are 7 of them )

Slot payback appears to be somewhat lower at racino's, 90.8 % vs 92 %. BUT the % number for the Casinos probably includes VP, so slot machine to slot machine, it is probably pretty close. I wouldn't care, but Mrs. Q likes the slots. She gets better room comps than I do at other non-Ohio places we like to go to, so it all works out, more or less.
I remember the thirty-five sweet goodbyes; When you put me on the Wolverine up to Annandale; It was still September When your daddy was quite surprised; To find you with the working girls in the county jail; I was smoking with the boys upstairs when I Heard about the whole affair;I said oh no William and Mary won't do
DRich
DRich
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February 9th, 2017 at 4:19:37 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Right, but over the sampling size of ALL players for an entire year shouldn't that number still move towards the "average" payback of all of the table games? If all the table games are 95%+ then wouldn't you expect this number to still be in the upper 90's and above the slot payback?



No, they don't measure the hold against how much is bet they measure it against how much was bought in for. What you are thinking of is called the house advantage, you would need to know the number of hands bet and the average bet (like we know on slots). In general, casinos don't keep track of that.

This is a very common point of confusion because most people assume the hold on slots and hold on tables are calculated the same way.

I'm sure others on here including Wizard and Elliot can give a clearer explanation.
charlestfuller
charlestfuller
Joined: Nov 18, 2016
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February 9th, 2017 at 4:59:29 PM permalink
Yeah, these are pretty rough numbers. The table games especially. I'm sure they still advertise that they have the highest slot payouts in the Midwest!
iamnomad
iamnomad
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February 9th, 2017 at 7:13:55 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

I wonder how disappointed Ohio is with their numbers. The St. Louis metro area alone is close to their state wide revenue numbers.

But they also have the racinos I suppose...which are outgrossing the four full-fledged casinos. On my visit to Cincinnati in 2015, we actually did better at the racinos...haha

https://www.ohiolottery.com/assets/pdf/VLT-Revenues/2016/June/VLT-Statewide-Monthly-Revenue-Report-FY-2016.pdf



I live in OH and my guess is that there isn't that much angst over these numbers, particularly since the economy here is generally OK. The two JACK casinos have not recovered from their decision to decouple from Caesars. I understand they knew they would take a hit and take time to bring their totals back up. The proliferation of racinos in Northeast and Southwest Ohio has also had impact.
iamnomad
iamnomad
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February 9th, 2017 at 7:25:55 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Interesting that slot payback averaged ~91-92% while table games payback to player averaged ~75-80%. Is this due to side bets, gross incompetence to basic strategies, or all of the above? I'm curious how table pay backs could possibly get down to 75%. Games like baccarat, I mean there's no "strategy mistakes" to be made there. Blackjack even if you play terribly you're still not getting down to that range.



LOL Romes! Basic blackjack strategy? In OH? I am astounded at how few people, even at the $15 table, seem to be aware that there is such a concept. When 75% of the players don't know what they're doing...

I'll go to the craps table once or twice a week and have gotten to know some of the players, and believe me there are some who bring serious dollars to the rack. One in particular, a wealthy attorney and a really nice guy, probably lost somewhere around $300-500k last year (not my estimate, that of some knowledgeable people at the tables, if you know what I mean) simply by refusing to quit while he's ahead, chasing losses, etc. We joke that should he quit, Penn Gaming stock will go down a point once it's known.

I think Hollywood Columbus also issued a great deal of promotional coupons for table games last month that also suppressed AGR to some extent...

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