darkoz
darkoz
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May 19th, 2016 at 9:49:11 PM permalink
This just happened to me so beware.

At the Taj Mahal, you have to pay for internet. So after check-in I turned on my computer. Their internet purchase page automatically comes up, nothing unusual. I entered my credit card info and pushed activate but got an error message.

My cell gets text messages when a charge is made and nothing was charged so I tried again. Once again, I received an error message.

I figured their internet service was down and switched to watching television. About 15 minutes later, my phone alerted by text there was a charge from Fingerhut. Within another 30 seconds a charge came in from match.com. Then cheapwindows.

By now, I was on the phone to the credit card company and putting a freeze on the card. Even while on the phone with customer service they saw new charges coming in. By the time the card was frozen (less than 5 minutes) 16 charges and over $500 was sucked from my account.

I expect to get most or all of it back since the fraud was immediately caught (I hope).

I alerted Taj Mahal security. It's believed someone over-rode their internet signal so that you got a clone page of their internet purchase page. I was basically entering all my credit card info to a page controlled by a scam artist.

Taj security was very courteous and professional. They logged all the charges to the penny and issued me an activity report number for their investigation. They said I might be entitled to reimbursement from them for all or part of the amount if my credit card company is unable to retrieve the funds (an offer which surprised me. Not sure if I did whether it would not be a bunch of red tape so hopefully I won't have to.

At any rate, if you are at the Taj (and perhaps any AC casino, this scam sounds pretty sophisticated) watch out when you purchase internet services.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
RS
RS
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May 20th, 2016 at 12:25:35 AM permalink
Damn. If someone put the work to do that....he woulda been smarter to set it up so your computer connects to the Internet and all is good, then use the CC's at a later date.
andysif
andysif
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May 20th, 2016 at 1:35:33 AM permalink
And it is not exactly Taj Mahal that scammed you, so your title maybe a little misleading.
OnceDear
OnceDear
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May 20th, 2016 at 2:16:38 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Damn. If someone put the work to do that....he woulda been smarter to set it up so your computer connects to the Internet and all is good, then use the CC's at a later date.

Minimal viable product. Unfortunately an absolute cinch to do. Scammer could fire up this fake hotspot on a phone or tablet and just get notification when he gets a bite. By not connecting his victim through to the internet, he is not risking getting the mischief traced back to him at all easily.
Agree, he might have been wise to use the cc numbers later,
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
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May 20th, 2016 at 3:10:37 AM permalink
The electronics needed to override a local WiFi signal are cheap. As OnceDear pointed out a cell hotspot can do the job. Designing a lookalike web site is also easy. Verify you have a secure connection to a site hosted on the right domain. That is, know what symbol indicates HTTPS protocol is being used and take the time to read the domain name.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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May 20th, 2016 at 4:52:56 AM permalink
Interesting scam. But what credit card do you have that won't easily and simply deny those charges? I had something similar happen to me with Amex and they basically said not to worry, they will eliminate all the fraudulent charges.
DRich
DRich
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May 20th, 2016 at 5:03:32 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Interesting scam. But what credit card do you have that won't easily and simply deny those charges? I had something similar happen to me with Amex and they basically said not to worry, they will eliminate all the fraudulent charges.



I agree. I have had fraudulent charges on may credit cards in the past five years and they immediately give full credit unless they suspect you might be involved. NEVER EVER use a debit card for online purchases. Honestly no one should use a debit card for anything other than getting money from your banks ATM.

I guess there could be some "secured" credit cards and "Stored value" cards where you could lose the fund immediately,
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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May 20th, 2016 at 5:15:47 AM permalink
I do not understand why anyone owns a debit card.
BoA been trying to replace my ATM card with Debit for years.
I decline.
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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May 20th, 2016 at 5:21:42 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I do not understand why anyone owns a debit card.
BoA being trying to replace my ATM card with Debit for years.
I decline.



My bank has replaced my ATM card with a debit card. I think I have used it as a debit card once years ago when they offered a specific discount for using it at a merchant I was going to buy something from anyways.

Maybe a mod can separate this, but I also agree with 2F,...


Why would anyone use a debit card instead of a credit card? Just pay off your credit card monthly online (30 seconds of work) and get the cashback, miles, whatever....
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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May 20th, 2016 at 5:25:11 AM permalink
Not enough security in Debit cards for me.
I think they should not be allowed.
You get robbed, the robber should consider killing you so you can't cancel the card before robber cleans out your acct.
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
darkoz
darkoz
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May 20th, 2016 at 5:56:55 AM permalink
Yes, it is a debit card I used. They assured me I would get the money back.

As many on here who follow me might remember I was homeless for a few years prior to learning to AP.

What came with being homeless was a screwed up line of credit. I had not the means to pay for those outstanding debts at the time.

I have too many bad memories of being hounded. Lets see if the funds are returned. Perhaps I will change my mind (if I feel like re-building my bloody credit line -- it's felt good knowing I owed no one even when making purchases online.)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
GWAE
GWAE
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May 20th, 2016 at 6:10:15 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Yes, it is a debit card I used. They assured me I would get the money back.

As many on here who follow me might remember I was homeless for a few years prior to learning to AP.

What came with being homeless was a screwed up line of credit. I had not the means to pay for those outstanding debts at the time.

I have too many bad memories of being hounded. Lets see if the funds are returned. Perhaps I will change my mind (if I feel like re-building my bloody credit line -- it's felt good knowing I owed no one even when making purchases online.)



If you do not have any new issues on credit and would like to fix it then visit creditboards.com It is a very good forum for self help on fixing credit.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
charliepatrick
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May 20th, 2016 at 8:04:53 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

... why [does] anyone owns a debit card.

In Europe I always have some cash on me just in case something goes wrong with my credit card, especially if filling the car up with diesel. This last trip I found that many places in Germany don't accept non-Euro credit cards. Even more off topic, if you have Swedish notes be aware that they're changing them in the next few years.

One side-effect I have found when using the internet abroad is that somehow they harvest your e-mail account name, as I seem to get more junk mail when I get back home. I can't see a way round this so just take the hit.

btw someone also seems to have found my e-mail address from wizardofmacau (which is unique to that site).
OnceDear
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May 20th, 2016 at 8:20:42 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

One side-effect I have found when using the internet abroad is that somehow they harvest your e-mail account name.



Email addresses are a commodity. Once yours is given to a rogue, it will be sold on to all other rogues.

Personally I recommend getting a catchall address and handing unique email addresses to all who might request one.

e.g. buy domain 'mycatchalldomainisthis.com' Arrange to receive all email to @mycatchalldomainisthis.com

and when signing up with a somethinglikewallmart service ( say ) give them your address as fromsomethinglikewallmart@mycatchalldomainisthis.com

Then when that email gets spammed you know that the organisation that you entrusted with your email address is never to be trusted again with anything and you can put a filter in your email client to block it..

ps, In the UK, most of us have debit cards tied to our current accounts.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Artemis
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May 20th, 2016 at 10:38:40 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz



My cell gets text messages when a charge is made and nothing was charged so I tried again.

By now, I was on the phone to the credit card company and putting a freeze on the card. Even while on the phone with customer service they saw new charges coming in. By the time the card was frozen (less than 5 minutes) 16 charges and over $500 was sucked from my account.

I was basically entering all my credit card info to a page controlled by a scam artist.

They said I might be entitled to reimbursement from them for all or part of the amount if my credit card company is unable to retrieve the funds (an offer which surprised me.



Quote: SOOPOO

Interesting scam. But what credit card do you have that won't easily and simply deny those charges? I had something similar happen to me with Amex and they basically said not to worry, they will eliminate all the fraudulent charges.



Quote: darkoz

Yes, it is a debit card I used. They assured me I would get the money back.




OK, I see. It's not a credit card. It's a debit card. Thanks for the clarification.
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
whodat
whodat
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May 20th, 2016 at 10:48:53 AM permalink
A debit card can be used at your bank to make a deposit without having to go to the counter. That's about the only think I use it for. Amex cards have a lot of built in protection.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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May 20th, 2016 at 2:04:29 PM permalink
Quote: whodat

A debit card can be used at your bank to make a deposit without having to go to the counter. That's about the only think I use it for. Amex cards have a lot of built in protection.

An ATM card can be used just as well to make a deposit, and doesn't come with some of the hazards of Debit cards. Let me ask again, I must be missing something, 'Why the hell would anyone expose themselves to the dangers of a Debit card'?

DarkOz has already touched on the fact that someone without good credit standing can put some money in the bank and then access it via a Debit card, this I understand. However, I think that justification does not apply to the majority of the members on these forums. Aside from that issue, can anyone explain to me why anyone would have a Debit card? No doubt your bank would be willing to give you an ATM card instead, even though that theo costs the bank a few bucks here and there. If not, you may be with the wrong bank!
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
whodat
whodat
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May 20th, 2016 at 2:26:58 PM permalink
TFA,
I did not realize that you can get an ATM card from your bank to make a deposit. I was told by my bank that if I get a debit card, not only will it act as an ATM, but I can also make deposits after hours as well.
Now I know. I only have one debit card anyways and I never take it with me on travels.
NokTang
NokTang
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May 22nd, 2016 at 5:29:16 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

An ATM card can be used just as well to make a deposit, and doesn't come with some of the hazards of Debit cards. Let me ask again, I must be missing something, 'Why the hell would anyone expose themselves to the dangers of a Debit card'?

DarkOz has already touched on the fact that someone without good credit standing can put some money in the bank and then access it via a Debit card, this I understand. However, I think that justification does not apply to the majority of the members on these forums. Aside from that issue, can anyone explain to me why anyone would have a Debit card? No doubt your bank would be willing to give you an ATM card instead, even though that theo costs the bank a few bucks here and there. If not, you may be with the wrong bank!



A debit card is necessary to have for many reasons. The most obvious is when you don't have "credit" due to past gambling losses or losing your income etc.. Debit cards while can't be used to rent a car, you can use them to check in a hotel and for other purchases as the need arises. In addition and perhaps most applicable here, if you tap out of cash, you can get a cash advance with a debit card at a bank. I'm one of those who thinks ATM's are more dangerous than using a debit card. The best solution to it all is to get either a low limit credit card or one which is actually prepaid that you can "top up" either online or in person with cash/an account. ATM's machines are quite often comprised here in Asia and good luck getting your money back. I carry a low limit credit card and top it up when going on a trip.

As an additional "remark", I didn't know free WIFI could not be assumed at most hotels, especially one's in Atlantic City and Las Vegas. It's ridiculous to have to buy WIFI access these days with smart phones and the rest of it all. If only Donald Trump was still in control of the Taj. I'm sure he wouldn't allow such trivial charges and fees in his properties.
OnceDear
OnceDear
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May 22nd, 2016 at 6:55:16 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Let me ask again, I must be missing something, 'Why the hell would anyone expose themselves to the dangers of a Debit card'?

Aside from that issue, can anyone explain to me why anyone would have a Debit card? No doubt your bank would be willing to give you an ATM card instead



Hmm. Maybe different in the US, but here in the UK, there are Credit Cards and there are Debit Cards. There's no third option of 'ATM card'
Credit cards can be used to draw cash advances ( Interest bearing loans ) from an ATM
Debit cards can be used to draw cash from an ATM either for free or for a small fee of about £1.50 Funds are drawn from an attached bank account which might be in credit or might be overdrawn. Debit cards effectively replaced Cheques for most purposes.

Both Debit cards and Credit cards can be used for most purchases. Debit cards typically at no cost and Credit cards, often at small percentage cost. ( Eg. holiday bookings or large transactions may cost an extra 2%)

Here in the UK there are different levels of bank guarantee against fraud. Different purchase cancellation and reversal rules.

So what's an ATM card if not a debit card??
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Dalex64
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May 22nd, 2016 at 7:14:58 AM permalink
ATM (automated teller machine) cards predated debit cards.

Orginally, they could only be used at an atm machine which belonged to the issuing bank.

Eventually, the banks started allowing you to use cards from other banks in their machines, for a fee (establishing a network) but you still could not use them for general transactions at a store.

The next phase was to widen the network to outside of banks, so you have a card linked to your bank account, and then an atm card became a debit card.

The service has been expanded further and in many cases you can use your debit card "as" a credit card, allowing an even wider network (such as the visa network) for access, so places don't have to support debit cards separatrly. They are still linked directly to your bank account.

I have a savings account that came with a no-network ATM card. It can only be used in ATMs.
OnceDear
OnceDear
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May 22nd, 2016 at 7:48:13 AM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

ATM (automated teller machine) cards predated debit cards.

Orginally, they could only be used at an atm machine which belonged to the issuing bank.

Eventually, the banks started allowing you to use cards from other banks in their machines, for a fee (establishing a network) but you still could not use them for general transactions at a store.



The UK evolved similarly, but I don't know of any ATM cards that don't double as a Debit Card.
UK banks are VERY keen to get rid of cheque payments, so they have aggressively pushed Debit cards for years.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
TwoFeathersATL
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May 22nd, 2016 at 7:58:16 AM permalink
No doubt, fraud protection for the consumer has increased as the Debit Card range of services has, possibly to at least the extent afforded to Credit card customers.

When they tried to change me over, many years ago, I said 'no thanks'

The subject hasn't come up in a long time with my bank.

They prolly realize I am a grumpy old man ;-)

At least at my bank, they still have simple ATM cards, usable at any ATM (fees may apply), which they replace every couple years.
Subject to change any minute I'm sure, maybe last week...

<edit> wife Sparkles prolly has a Debit card, and she is very careful to keep almost ALL the money in her accounts ;-( ... I never seem to win....
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Dalex64
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May 22nd, 2016 at 4:19:35 PM permalink
My credit card has a service - I can get a number issued on demand, with a credit limit and expiration date of my own choosing (within my own limits)

That number will then only work for the first vendor that uses it.

Great for internet purchases.
miplet
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May 22nd, 2016 at 4:52:00 PM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

My credit card has a service - I can get a number issued on demand, with a credit limit and expiration date of my own choosing (within my own limits)

That number will then only work for the first vendor that uses it.

Great for internet purchases.

“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
Wizardofnothing
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May 22nd, 2016 at 4:56:50 PM permalink
I have a credit card
But on numerous occasions I have used a debit card to rent a car
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
RS
RS
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May 22nd, 2016 at 6:05:37 PM permalink
TIL people actually live in other parts of the world (i.e.: not USA or CA).


I just use a credit card for almost everything. Occasionally I'll use cash, but that's generally only if I'm like at a drive thru and have lots of $1 bills BECAUSE THATS HOW SOME APs PAY EACH OTHER YOU SICK F***S!!!!
Wizardofnothing
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May 22nd, 2016 at 6:13:39 PM permalink
I heard dj pays his debts with 1s
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
djatc
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May 22nd, 2016 at 6:28:41 PM permalink
Yes some of us pay our debts
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
FleaStiff
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May 22nd, 2016 at 6:38:48 PM permalink
As I unerstand it there are various BlueTooth and Wifi and lofi definitions.
Including some very portable but low power units that will work solely for nearby devices, so 'sniffing' can be done from a nearby hotel room or in a cafe or lobby.

I've heard that fake hardware can be placed on any ATM or card scanner so that all the data is captured as well as transmitted as the device expects, so your withdrawal will go thru but your password has been captured.
Wizardofnothing
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May 22nd, 2016 at 6:42:39 PM permalink
Wayyyyyyy back in the day 1999 my room got robbed at the taj-- the front desk gave someone a key that was sitting next to me at the tables for hours.... They got to the bottom of it quickly and gave me a cash comp at the cage within 3 hours for what was taken - and sent me to the jewelry store Bernie Robbins which was there at the time to replace my watch
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
FleaStiff
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May 22nd, 2016 at 7:01:39 PM permalink
Some banks have debit cards that are geographically limited, although you need only type in your destination city on their website to use it when you travel, this protects many people sufficiently though its a problem only for rich people.
DiscreteMaths2
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May 24th, 2016 at 6:51:28 PM permalink
Hotel public networks are notoriously exploitable (regardless of owner or chain). I would recommend not sending any sensitive material (passwords, credit cards, etc) while on them or viewing anything you wouldn't want someone knowing that you did. If you really have to, say for work or something, you are really going to want to pay for a VPN.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
darkoz
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May 25th, 2016 at 7:20:35 PM permalink
Just an update for everyone.

Within 3 days I received a new debit card in the mail and just as quickly all the fraudulent charges were reversed.

I don't know if it went so smoothly because I caught it while it was happening but everything worked out in the end.

Thanks, guys.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Brewfangrb
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May 30th, 2016 at 11:04:18 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

An ATM card can be used just as well to make a deposit, and doesn't come with some of the hazards of Debit cards. Let me ask again, I must be missing something, 'Why the hell would anyone expose themselves to the dangers of a Debit card'?



I may be missing something but why is anyone worked up over "OMG, I HATE DEBIT CARDS!"? Isn't said debit card co-branded with Visa or Mastercard? If so, you're protected. Period. Furthermore, no bank is going to shrug their shoulders and say "Sowwy!" and hang up on you.

The only real risk of a debit card vs a credit card is you're out "real cash" while your bank works to restore the funds. If that happens, can't you then just use the credit cards people proclaim to be the end-all, be-all solution to this problem?
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