OneAngryDwarf
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April 13th, 2010 at 1:59:36 AM permalink
As recently as 20 years or so ago, if you wanted to gamble (legally) in America, you were pretty much limited to Vegas or AC. Nowadays, it seems as though casinos are almost as prevalent as Wal-Marts--yes, that's an exaggeration, but not by much. There are 4 casinos already operating within an hour's driving distance or less of my house (in Western PA), and talk of more opening in the near future. The existence of 2 of those casinos, in West Virginia, is threatened by Ohio's recent legalization of casino gaming in their 4 largest cities (well over 75% of their traffic comes from the Cleveland/Columbus area). Other states, such as Massachusetts, have casino bills in the works as well...competing not only with AC but with already established Indian casino in CT and NY.

I just have to wonder, how exactly are all these casinos going to survive? Don't get me wrong, I am all for competition, but when you get down to it, in terms of the gambling experience...the "staple" games (BJ, craps, roulette, bacc) and slots are all pretty much the same wherever you go, across the country. Sure, there are minor differences, such as different odds limits in craps and BJ rules variations, but really, most people just don't care about things like that. Similarly, one casino may have a certain carnival game that others don't, but they're mainly just distractions, not really a huge draw for people. There are only so many ways to lose one's money that eventually the novelty has to wear off and a certain percentage of people just stop gambling...right?

Gambling has been a part of every civilization since the beginning of time, so it's obviously never going to go away completely...but for an industry that offers no actual "product," it seems like the pie keeps getting sliced thinner and thinner.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight... I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
konceptum
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April 13th, 2010 at 2:41:51 AM permalink
Interesting. Here in Phoenix there are several Indian casinos. (Unfortunately, they don't offer any real craps, just video craps.) Anyway, about a year or so ago, a couple of them started building hotels, in addition to their casinos. At first, I wondered why they would bother putting up a hotel. After all, I live here, why would I stay in the hotel. But it occurred to me that perhaps tourists, visitors, businesspeople, what-have-you, may stay at the casino/hotel while they are in town, in order to have their entertainment fun for the evening.

I was in one of the local casinos not too long ago, and the place was crowded. As one guy at the PaiGow table said, "By the looks of this place, you sure wouldn't think there was an economic recession going on."

If state laws changed and allowed craps, I have to admit that I would probably visit the local casinos a lot more often. As it stands now, I visit them from time to time, but nothing as heavily as my trips to Las Vegas and Laughlin.

I don't think people will ever stop going to the casinos and gambling, no matter how many of them are built. Some people have that urge to beat the house. Others enjoy the entertainment value. For whatever the reason, people enjoy gambling, and more casinos mean more choices.
odiousgambit
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April 13th, 2010 at 3:17:38 AM permalink
it doesnt seem to be a bad thing for "us" ... if some casinos go down due to competition, hard to say what that would mean to the average joe.

It looks like some jurisdictions are going to find out how many is too many.

Vegas and A.C. better get smart about being competitive.

Bluenoses must be worried that problem gamblers will increase, or that there will be other social ills.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
RonC
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April 13th, 2010 at 5:11:33 AM permalink
I don't know how much competition these locations pose for Las Vegas, but I am sure some dollars that would have been used out there are spent at local places instead. At the local level, it is interesting to wonder where it ends. Texas has folks interested in bringing casinos here (Galveston is one possible location) because they can literally see the dollars headed off to Louisiana...

I find it hard to justify being "opposed" to casino gambling when the state runs a gambling game already. Lottery play is closer to throwing money away than anything we do in the casinos!! Texas doesn't get my money (from gambling or taxes on gambling) because I don't do the lottery; they would get some if we had casinos! Louisiana gets that (except for Las Vegas' share!!).

For me, Las Vegas is always my main gambling destination. I have visited other casinos around the country, but the atmosphere there is unmatched. A trip to a local casino is a gambling trip; a trip to Vegas is a gambling event. Huge difference to me. Any local establishment will be trumped by that for the big trips.
DJTeddyBear
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April 13th, 2010 at 5:53:55 AM permalink
What's the saturation point?

That's a hard question to answer, since it seems like every state with casinos in a bordering state want to trap those tax dollars before they cross the state line.

Eventually, every state will have their share of casinos, things will settle down, and there will be a shake up where only the strong will survive.

I don't see anything wrong with locals casinos nationwide. What I find interesting is that casinos in a place like Phoenix decide to start building hotels. I mean, is Phoenix really a tourist destination? If so, why weren't the hotels part of the original concept?

I don't mean to pick on Phoenix, but since Konceptum mentioned it, I might as well talk about it.

I line in Northern NJ, so I have plenty of local options. AC and CT are both just under a 3 hour drive. Once tables open in PA, the closest casino will be half that distance.

If I'm getting in a plane to go gambling, Phoenix ain't my first choice. Not even close.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
odiousgambit
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April 13th, 2010 at 7:20:16 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Eventually, every state will have their share of casinos, things will settle down, and there will be a shake up where only the strong will survive.



Might be some Bible-belt hold-outs.

I'll tell you one thing, if I was a prospective investor in some casino with the possibility a neigboring state might make a crippling move? I wouldn't like the uncertainty.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
ruascott
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April 13th, 2010 at 7:30:19 AM permalink
I've been wonder much the same thing recently. Here in Indiana we've had the riverboats for over 15 years. When it started there wasn't much competition outside of AC and Vegas, and due to their positioning close to major cities (Cini, Louisville, Chicago) Indiana became the 3rd or 4th largest (Mississippi) gaming state in the country. What started as actual boats that cruised the rivers (and Lake Michigan), have now become de-facto land based casinos.

Also, since that time, a new land based casino has opened in French Lick, and two more centrally - close to Indy - located horse tracks built casinos (offering only electronic games at this time). The state has become quite dependent upon gambling revenue to fund a lot of its gov't operations.

Now Ohio is opening full-blown land-based casinos in each of its major cities. Kentucky is looking to install at least slots at their horse tracks. While this won't impact the northern casinos which draw from Chicagoland, I fear that the boats in the southern part of the state are going to be hurting. Just last year Hollywood casino near Cincy opened a 150,000 sq ft barge that drawfs the size of the other boats in the region. The smaller boats revenues have been crushed from the competition, and the Ohio casino that will be actually in Cincy isn't even open yet.

I think there is going to be a lot of shakeup in the next 10 years or so with all the new gambling set to come on line. If anything though, more competition means better deals for the consumer.
AZDuffman
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April 13th, 2010 at 7:48:28 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear



I don't see anything wrong with locals casinos nationwide. What I find interesting is that casinos in a place like Phoenix decide to start building hotels. I mean, is Phoenix really a tourist destination? If so, why weren't the hotels part of the original concept?

I don't mean to pick on Phoenix, but since Konceptum mentioned it, I might as well talk about it.


If I'm getting in a plane to go gambling, Phoenix ain't my first choice. Not even close.



As someone who has lived in western PA and Phoenix this thread got my interest. As to "Phoenix as a tourist destination" my thought is that it is, but not in the same way as Vegas. Phoenix is something like the fifth largest city in the USA. Plenty of people will visit, many on business. It was once supposed to be (they canceled it) a host to a convention at an old company. Plenty of companies will visit there for conventions due to the fact that there are many flights plus plenty of hotel resorts that can handle a 2-5,000 person convention. They told us that is not easy to find and there were only 5-6 places in the North-Western Hemisphere that met the requirements of size, price, and nice weather in winter. Phoenix (Scottsdale) was one of them.

So if you are going anyways, maybe you have your convention at a casino-hotel. Will you get Mr amd Mrs Joe Average Gambler ther? Of course not. Will you get "tourism?" I think so. Most of the casinos in Phoenix have plenty of land to add a hotel tower or two.

As to PA, "locals" casino concept. In AZ I lived minutes from a locals casino (Vee Quiva.) No tourism trrade there at all, but a place for locals to go. If they have a few nice bars and restaurants I can see every city having one to a few "locals" places. But this means they must have other things to do like the bars I mentioned, maybe a bowling center/pool hall on one floor, who knows.

What will fail is if every city just puts up another place with BJ/craps/roulette/slots and hopes for a gold mine. That era ended in the early 2000s.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
boymimbo
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April 13th, 2010 at 7:57:15 AM permalink
I agree that it's a matter of time before all states offer casinos. There is a social cost to gambling of course.

Most gamblers are poor and don't know any better. Casinos suck money away from people who can't afford to play in the first place. This is magnified in the local casino because virtually everyone has a car and would be willing to drive one hour to their local casino but not three or more hours to a casino that's in a different state. As a result, gambling is a tax on the middle and lower class, but it is indeed a choice.

There's the addiction. A gambling addict who today might blow $100 a week on scratch tickets and lottery tickets might blow $500 a week in a casino.

There's the drop in property values and rise in crime directly around the casino that needs to be dealt with. There's the organized crime and money laundering within a casino that needs to be combatted.

So, casinos in these states need to be planned carefully so that these risks can be mitigated.

Certainly there is a point of saturation. You can just look at the Northeast for that. Atlantic City and Foxwoods are sufferring because the capacity is too high today. There is only a finite pool of gamblers; the size of that pool and the amount that they spend is correlated with economic conditions. So with new casinos opening everywhere, some casinos will falter because of poor planning, location, and management, while some will flourish.

Competition is good for the consumer. But you have to remember that the tax revenue from that casino directly supports your state's tax revenue and your services. So while the gambling conditions might be better because of the choices you have, the rest of your conditions (the roads you drive on, your justice system, the state tax rate that you pay) will change based on the choices that the state makes.
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DJTeddyBear
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April 13th, 2010 at 8:28:01 AM permalink
Quote: ruascott

If anything though, more competition means better deals for the consumer.

Really?

There's a lot more competition, and a lot of empty Vegas hotel rooms.

Maybe these aren't directly connected, but the biggest change that I've seen is more and more 6:5 BJ!
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
pacomartin
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April 13th, 2010 at 8:43:03 AM permalink


I think there may be a move to these mobile gaming devices that fit in the palm of your hand for more of the urban casinos. That way a casino will look more like a fancy hotel with a lot of bars and dance floors and swimming pools. But the customers will be issued these mobile gaming devices which will permit sports book and games.

It will make getting approvals for casinos easier because they won't have these giant floors of slot machines.

The debate about demand and oversupply will be constant. It is sort of inherent to the business. Nobody needs to gamble, so it is never clear how many casinos are needed. It seems as if the risk is fundamental. If the recession hadn't happened, there were plans for 54K new rooms in Vegas. They built 15K with another 4K coming next year, and another 4K tied up in the Fountainbleau. But if they had built the original 54K there would probably be an oversupply.

But remember that most gaming in the East Coast is a public private cooperative effort, with much of the money going to the state. The state will quickly become addicted.
ruascott
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April 13th, 2010 at 8:43:36 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Really?

There's a lot more competition, and a lot of empty Vegas hotel rooms.

Maybe these aren't directly connected, but the biggest change that I've seen is more and more 6:5 BJ!



Yeah a lot of empty hotel rooms, which equals some really good hotel room deals. Some of the best deals I've seen in years in Vegas, so, I'd say yes good for the consumer.

The proliferation of 6:5 BJ seems to be constrained to Vegas, and Vegas only, at this point. The only way I think they can get away with that is people gambling who have no idea what they are doing. That would never fly in a local casino where you have more hardcore gamblers. Even the north strip and Freemont casinos are staying away from it for the most part (other than the novelty pits & games).
ruascott
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April 13th, 2010 at 8:47:50 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin



I think there may be a move to these mobile gaming devices that fit in the palm of your hand for more of the urban casinos. That way a casino will look more like a fancy hotel with a lot of bars and dance floors and swimming pools. But the customers will be issued these mobile gaming devices which will permit sports book and games.

It will make getting approvals for casinos easier because they won't have these giant floors of slot machines.



How many people would really play those though? I can't even stand the electronic table games (BJ, craps, etc..) I can get that level of enjoyment on my home computer.

I'd love to see more sports betting allowed, but there doesn't seem to be much give on that. What locales outside of Vegas have legal books?
pacomartin
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April 13th, 2010 at 9:01:45 AM permalink
I would say for Nevada that 340 nonrestricted licenses, and almost 3000 restricted licenses (15 slot machines or less) is too many.

Northern Nevada and Tahoe now have too much competition from Indian casinos in Sacramento to survive. There is something called a "locals casino" market in Las Vegas, which is usually taken to be any casino that is not in Laughlin, Mesquite, the strip, or downtown. That market is over $2 billion last year (even in the depression) and is still larger than casino gaming in Pennsylvania (which is over 12.5 million people).

Principle Casinos in the Local's Market

CANNERY HOTEL CASINO, THE
RAMPART CASINO
EASTSIDE CANNERY CASINO & HOTEL*

BOULDER STATION HOTEL & CASINO
SANTA FE STATION HOTEL & CASINO
TEXAS STATION GAMBLING HALL & HOTEL
SUNSET STATION HOTEL & CASINO
RED ROCK CASINO RESORT SPA
GREEN VALLEY RANCH STATION CASINO
ALIANTE STATION CASINO + HOTEL*

SUNCOAST HOTEL AND CASINO
ORLEANS HOTEL AND CASINO
GOLD COAST HOTEL AND CASINO
SAM'S TOWN HOTEL & GAMBLING HALL

SOUTH POINT HOTEL AND CASINO

M RESORT SPA AND CASINO, THE*
FleaStiff
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April 13th, 2010 at 9:51:04 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Northern Nevada and Tahoe now have too much competition from Indian casinos in Sacramento to survive.

Yes. Bankruptcies increasing there. Some casinos being looked at as mere hotels now.

>"locals casino", which is usually taken to be any casino that is not in Laughlin, Mesquite, the strip, or downtown.
I take a more charitable view and consider that market segment to require an orientation to locals and an assumption that their players are not as ignorant of gambling opportunities as tourists seem to be. The upscale locals places such as The M Resort do try to cater to bargain-minded tourists. It used to be that Vegas offered funbooks and the like but specified OutOfStateIDRequired. Now locals are sought after and supposedly locals casinos have loosest slots, best craps odds, lower table minimums, more relaxed atmosphere and more non-gambling options such as bingo, bowling or movies. Though there are clearly exceptions such as SouthPoint with its 2x craps odds.

Do you agree that the players at various Locals Casinos tend to be more informed about the odds and the blackjack rules and the like? Or is it just those casinos that are on cheaper land well away from the Strip?
pacomartin
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April 13th, 2010 at 10:55:25 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

I take a more charitable view and consider that market segment to require an orientation to locals and an assumption that their players are not as ignorant of gambling opportunities as tourists seem to be. The upscale locals places such as The M Resort do try to cater to bargain-minded tourists.



There is a philosophical view of what constitutes a locals casino, but when you are talking statistics you are obligated to go with the groupings that are dictated by the Nevada Gaming Control Board. For instance in this industry newsletter it says the local's market was $2,151,497,239 fr 2009 (gaming alone). Since there are 2 million people in the county that's a little over $1000 per capita for the year. But taking out the 20% that is under 18, prisoners, infirm, and the non-gamblers that is a lot of money for people to lose. In contrast the take in Pennsylvania was only $1.75 billion last fiscal year, for a state with a population of 12.6 million. I would hope the local populace is not losing anywhere near $2.1 billion in a depression year.

What happens the the phrase local's market includes all the casinos that are not in the 4 major tourist areas. But a lot of places like South Point, Red Rock, Green Valley and M Resort have a mix of tourists and upscale locals. The regulations require that all these places have hotels (minimum of 300 rooms) so that guests of local population have a place to stay.


But, yes, locals casino are much more reliant on video poker with good pay schedules, and less reliant on flashy slot games like Sex in the City that have a 12% house advantage. In Vegas, they rarely open movie theaters in shopping malls anymore. Village Square and Town Center are the only two I can think of in the last ten years. All movie theaters and bowling alleys open up attached to casinos. I believe that there are only three free-standing cinemas left, and one drive in.

In the depression the raids on each other's clients increased. The upscale locals hotels tried to bring small conventions to the suburbs. They usually emphasize convenient, inexpensive golf. However, some people like video game convention organizers say they prefer the suburbs, because the attendees skip out on the meetings less often. Likewise the strip casinos are constantly trying to entice the locals there midweek with special discounts on shows, free access to the pools, and sometimes free limousine rides. Downtown has places like the Triple 7 brew pub which attracts locals.

But with so many places to gamble, it just gets to seem like too much. Everyone is in the act. The supermarkets have little rooms where you can get free sodas and play machines. Almost every gas station has a machine in case you don't know what to do with yourself for the three minutes you are buying gas. The dimly lit bar with 15 bar top machines is the standard in Vegas.

One of the attractions of high speed rail, is that it might make it easier for people to come from LA for a day or two midweek. There are more empty hotel rooms in Vegas midweek than the sum of all the hotels in most major metropolitan areas.
FleaStiff
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April 13th, 2010 at 12:41:31 PM permalink
If the Strip goes for fifty million an acre or anything near it, I don't blame the big theme casinos there for not having much in the way of bingo rooms, keno rooms or movie theaters. Its the outlying areas that can offer such things. Golf courses might draw tourists but I don't think bowling alleys would.

The all day buffet deals are simply efforts to retain an already captured customer. Locals casinos do the same thing with their geography. If you are at the M, where else are you going to go? I guess there is always some element of poaching other casinos customers particularly in bad times, but it seems that locals casinos atleast claim to offer better deals than the strip or downtown does.

I'd trek downtown for some Black Cherry Ale at the 777Brew Pub particularly since the craps table is close by and has 20x odds, yet I wouldn't venture downtown for most of the offerings there. Markets always consist of a mix of customers and not everyone fits into the nice pigeonholes the survey takers would like to impose on us.

The one thing that has always puzzled me is that when tourists learn that Locals Casinos offer a better deal on gambling (looser slots, lower minimums, slower dice, etc.) WHY do tourists ever come back to the Strip or Downtown? Why shoot craps at the speed of a strip place if one can have a relaxed game in the more distant local casinos? Its not as if the gambling were a minor point. Its the one thing that should be paramount in the customers mind, yet it seems not to be.
pacomartin
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April 13th, 2010 at 2:03:30 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

If the Strip goes for fifty million an acre or anything near it, I don't blame the big theme casinos there for not having much in the way of bingo rooms, keno rooms or movie theaters. Its the outlying areas that can offer such things. Golf courses might draw tourists but I don't think bowling alleys would.

The all day buffet deals are simply efforts to retain an already captured customer. Locals casinos do the same thing with their geography. If you are at the M, where else are you going to go? I guess there is always some element of poaching other casinos customers particularly in bad times, but it seems that locals casinos atleast claim to offer better deals than the strip or downtown does.

I'd trek downtown for some Black Cherry Ale at the 777Brew Pub particularly since the craps table is close by and has 20x odds, yet I wouldn't venture downtown for most of the offerings there. Markets always consist of a mix of customers and not everyone fits into the nice pigeonholes the survey takers would like to impose on us.

The one thing that has always puzzled me is that when tourists learn that Locals Casinos offer a better deal on gambling (looser slots, lower minimums, slower dice, etc.) WHY do tourists ever come back to the Strip or Downtown? Why shoot craps at the speed of a strip place if one can have a relaxed game in the more distant local casinos? Its not as if the gambling were a minor point. Its the one thing that should be paramount in the customers mind, yet it seems not to be.



Strip property seems to have peaked at about $34m per acre but has since plunged to closer to $4m. It's somewhat theoretical since most people aren't selling the land at rock bottom prices.

Golf courses are a much bigger draw than bowling alleys. But not always. Rio has bowling alleys.

Downtown usually has better gambling odds than the locals casinos. Higher free odds at craps, and more 6/9 video poker machines.

Tourists often care about many more things than simply straight odds at gambling and cheap food. The super expensive Michelin star restaurants are always full. The strip buffets still seem very expensive to me compared to a local ethnic dining or the downtown buffets. People are not hamsters. You can't stuff all that food away for later.

Some people venture into locals territory to save money. South Point offers a much larger room and a big TV for a lot less money. There are devotees of Orleans Casino which is nearby but not on the strip. If you want to make serious stab at playing large "free odds" bets at craps, then you should go to Main Street or to Eastside Cannery (100X odds with $3 minimum). Green Valley and Red Rock would award the winner of the TV show "America's Top Chef" with a contract to work at their casino. When Rampart was built by a Swiss company they had pretensions of being a Mobil 5 star resort. That didn't work, but it is now an upscale 4 diamond Marriot with a nice golf course.
konceptum
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April 13th, 2010 at 11:38:18 PM permalink
Sorry for the late reply. As to Phoenix being a "tourist destination", maybe not so much for tourists, but it is good for business meetings and conventions, as someone else mentioned. It helps that we have such great weather almost year round. As long as you're not here during July or August, you can be pretty sure that the weather will be sunny, clear, and not too hot. Thus it makes a pretty good business convention destination.

As to why the casinos didn't build hotels to begin with, while I don't know for certain, I think it had to do with an initial trepidation as to whether or not casinos would catch on and be profitable for the tribes. I do know that when the tribes were originally granted permission to build casinos, none of them built casinos with the fully allotted amount of slot machines. (The tribal compacts dictated how many machines and table games they can have.) Some of the casinos were built in "tents", literally temporary type buildings. This is how unsure they were of actually being able to make money doing this.

It didn't help that they were a bit hampered in the games they could offer as well. Initially, the casinos here were not allowed to deal blackjack. Something to do with the regulations that card games could not be played with the house as a banker. They did invent some kind of game based on blackjack, only where the players played against each other. Whoever at the table had the highest total hand, without going over 21, won all the bets on the table. Weird.

It also meant that they were allowed to have poker, and some of these casinos opened up rather huge poker rooms. Especially when compared to the typical Las Vegas poker room (at that time). However, even so, again because of the gambling regulations, casinos here in Arizona were not allowed to spread no-limit poker games. (I haven't played poker here in a long time, and I do not know for certain if this is still the case.) I actually learned how to play poker in limit games, and got to be fairly good, winning several tournaments, all played in limit format. When I went to Las Vegas and played in my first no-limit tournament, I was lost. No-limit games require a completely different type of strategery.

Eventually, the gambling regulations changed, and now blackjack is available. Since that is a house-banked game, it opened up the way for such games as Let It Ride, Three Card Poker, and PaiGow Poker. I have only seen one casino in the state of Arizona that allows player banking in PaiGow Poker. When I asked a pit boss (at a casino that didn't allow it), I was told that it was probably just because the casinos thought it would be too complicated. I have not seen other types of table games. I'm not sure if the gambling regulations specifically spell out which games are allowed and which aren't, or if the casinos just figure they only want the popular/profitable games.

There are no craps tables or roulette tables. Probably something in the gambling regulations. Some casinos have an electronics craps table, and some have electronics roulette tables, but that's about it.

When poker was a strong love of mine, I was at local Indian casinos all the time. When that faded out for me (winning several tournaments in a row ruined things I guess), I stopped gambling altogether for several years, until a trip to Las Vegas got me hooked on craps. Now, I seek to play craps all the time, but since that requires a trip to Laughlin and/or Las Vegas, I don't get to do it as often. (It's about a 5 1/2 hour drive from Phoenix to Las Vegas. 4 hours to Laughlin.)

Back to what I started. The Indian casinos started kind of small. Then, maybe when it became obvious that they could make money, they became bigger, and with better buildings. Some of the larger tribes were able to secure additional licensing within the tribal compacts that allowed them to build multiple casinos. And now, they've started adding hotels. (Although Harrah's always had a hotel, but maybe they pre-thought things out a bit.)

Despite all that, I still think that people will look at Las Vegas as THE vacation destination. After all, when you go on vacation, you want to leave your own city. At least, most people do. I've heard dealers here at the Indian casinos talk about how they can't wait for their vacation so they can go to Vegas... and play the same games that they deal. Also, the betting limits are much greater in Las Vegas than they are here. I've already talked about the no-limit / limit poker. Tables games are usually pretty limited on how much can be bet, and I do believe that the limitations are dictated by the gambling regulations / tribal compacts. So, some people will go to Vegas to get the treatment that you get in Vegas, that you can't get here: Valets that work on tips only, free drinks within the casino (here you have to pay for the drinks), entertaining shows that can't be seen elsewhere (well, sometimes), etc, etc.

Plus, Vegas will always be, well, Vegas! It has that history and allure that's going to draw people in. When I was younger, I would always stay on the strip. I don't think I ever went downtown other than once or twice to see the Fremont light show. Lately, however, I LOVE staying downtown! And, quite frankly, it's all new to me, and it's kind of exciting to be in these downtown casinos. That's an experience I can't get here at home.
pacomartin
pacomartin
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April 14th, 2010 at 4:52:57 AM permalink
I don't think that anyone thinks that Vegas is going to vanish. It may have stopped growing like it did in the 80's. No new major casino was built on the strip from about 1980 to 1989.

Visitation statistics are down to 2003-2004 numbers before the Wynn was built. The years 2008-2009 were major construction years with over 15K rooms opening, and another 4K in the Fountainbleau, and 3K in the Cosmopolitan, and 1K in smaller hotels.

Naturally the luxury condominium market is massively overbuilt, and the long term viability of even the biggest projects like City Center is in doubt because of the inability to sell condos.

Las Vegas visitors
2009 36,351,469
2008 37,481,552
2007 39,196,761
2006 38,914,889
2005 38,566,717
2004 37,388,781
2003 35,540,126
2002 35,071,504
2001 35,017,317
2000 35,849,691
1990 20,954,420
1980 11,941,524

Los Angeles hosted a record 25.9 million visitors in 2007.

Gaming revenue in Macau is now triple that of the Las Vegas strip and still growing. Their visitation statistics are about 22 milion per year.

There are only 2000-2300 people a month that come to Las Vegas on a scheduled carrier non-stop from Seoul (probably many more that come through Los Angeles). There are some that come on the charter flights. Visitation from the United Kingdom is growing the fastest.
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