Thoughts On Mt. 21:18-22
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2) Hearing your genuine comments about what strikes you, frustrates you, confuses you, or makes you happy will be helpful. Also helpful will the questions the text brings to your mind and your own interpretations on what the text is saying.
May I also suggest a few rules for this to work:
a) I will not try to defend or push any certain interpretation of the text from my own tradition, I think we all want to hear what we are all thinking and not the dogmatic definitions or traditional interpretations, if I can do this maybe we can all do the same and just let people's thoughts stand and not attack them. If questions are posed we can all try to do our best to answer them.
b) Stay very focused on just the text presented. Do not go into comments or posts from all over the Bible unless you think it directly connects to this presented text.
c) Likewise, no matter what your beliefs may be concerning God, let's not attack religion, faith, or the lack of either in our posts. Stay focused again on the passage and try to suspend your disbelief if you need to in order to comment on what you think the words mean to you.
Here we go:
Quote: The Word Of God, Matthew 21:18-2218 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, May you never bear fruit again! Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. How did the fig tree wither so quickly? they asked.
21 Jesus replied, Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, Go, throw yourself into the sea, and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
Quote: s2dbaker22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
I've never understood this. Was it the tree's fault it had
no figs right then? They don't bear fruit all year, no tree
does. And people don't receive what they pray for, unless
its something that has a 50/50 chance of happening anyway.
Quote: WizardWhy should anybody go "all in" for god, as you say? Does god even want us fawning all over him, or would he rather we live our lives normally like decent people? It doesn't seem like there is any payback for going the extra mile. It would be nice if it were like in Jesus' day where if you had faith you could heal the stick, walk on water, move mountains, etc.. You never see that today? Is it that nobody has enough faith or god has pulled back?
Nevertheless, I think this verse demands an explanation. I know FrG says that every new saint has to have a confirmed miracle, but with all the millions of Christians on earth, why aren't we seeing miracles on an everyday basis? This I really think deserves an answer. Either almost nobody has faith or Jesus is not keeping his promise. Which is it?
pi = 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679.
So, questions:
1) If the statement "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer" is true, then could Jesus not simply pray not to be hungry? Surely a deity that can create the universe can manage that much. Or could he not have prayed for food to appear in front of him? Did he have to take out his frustration on a tree?
2) If Jesus is also god, doesn't he always know everything and wouldn't he know the tree would be without fruit?
Of course, if he was staging a demonstration to impress his followers, his actions then make sense.
Not if He's God. I think God would be more secure in His omnipotence. Wouldn't it have been more productive to have the tree bear fruit instantly then to wither and die instantly?Quote: NareedOf course, if he was staging a demonstration to impress his followers, his actions then make sense.
The whole bit has confounded scholars. I think I have seen some try to say it was an allegory, but this was no parable Jesus was teaching; I guess it could be claimed it was "Allegory Live" but if so it was over everybody's heads. Relating this story in its entirety seemed important to the Gospel writers as if thinking some day it will be clear what this was about. It was near the end of his ministry and indeed possibly an unfinished thing.
As far as why Christians havent turned into powerful wizards throwing mountains into the sea, you have the thing of "not putting God to the test." So if your purpose in prayer is to test God, saying "OK I'm going to pray that this candle lights on its own, and if it does, that proves God exists," you have to be setting yourself up to displease God. If the candle lit you'd have to worry that something from Hell provided the spark, you would be prime meat with this stinkin' thinkin'. It all has to be within God's Purpose clearly.
I'm not saying I believe all this but I think we are kidding ourselves not to think that this is easily answered. Jesus seemed to be saying this could be done and simultaneously explaining why it wasnt going to be happening [I'm looking at Mark and have to close now, running out of time; there is a wikipedia page btw, havent read that yet]
I always find this fun; others find it distressing that all about the Bible isnt neatly laid out and understood.
Quote: s2dbakerNot if He's God. I think God would be more secure in His omnipotence. Wouldn't it have been more productive to have the tree bear fruit instantly then to wither and die instantly?
God has a cruel and inhumane streak. Consider the flood he used to destroy all human and, one assumes, animal life on land. He did it because people were bad, except for Noah and his family. Fine. But 1) How many of those god killed were children who'd done no wrong? 2) How many of the animals that died had been wicked enough to merit slaughter?
Or think about the way in which he secured the realease of the Hebrews from Egypt. Let's set to one side the first nine plagues, which were bad enough. Let's focus on the tenth plague. God selectively killed every first-born son in the land. How amny fo those boys were guilty of Pharaoh not letting go of his slaves?
Seen that way a fig tree is nothing.
Quote: odiousgambitAs far as why Christians havent turned into powerful wizards throwing mountains into the sea, you have the thing of "not putting God to the test." So if your purpose in prayer is to test God, saying "OK I'm going to pray that this candle lights on its own, and if it does, that proves God exists," you have to be setting yourself up to displease God. If the candle lit you'd have to worry that something from Hell provided the spark, you would be prime meat with this stinkin' thinkin'. It all has to be within God's Purpose clearly.
Ah, so when a sincerely devout man earnestly prays that his five year old son won't die of cancer, and the child does die, then it's beacsue his continued life did not fit in with god's purpose?
The thing is that if you attach a clause that says "god's will permitting," you can explain away any inconsistencies and discrepancies. It's all just part of god's top secret plan we'll never understand, see?
Quote:I'm not saying I believe all this but I think we are kidding ourselves not to think that this is easily answered. Jesus seemed to be saying this could be done and simultaneously explaining why it wasnt going to be happening [I'm looking at Mark and have to close now, running out of time; there is a wikipedia page btw, havent read that yet]
It is easily answered. Either 1) there's no god of any kind, therefore your prayers don't matter as far as the physical world is concerned (though they may mater to your inner peace), or 2) there is a god of some sort and we're playing with his fixed deck.
Now some quick thoughts on this text:
I like the phrase "parable live" that someone used. Jesus is teaching using props. Here is a tree that is a symbol of life and a fig tree that should produce some sweet fruit. By not producing fruit it is a symbol of failure, like the failure of the Pharisees and Saducees of the time to give new life and sweet compassion to the people. I take it as a warning to me to that I need to produce the sweet fruit of hope in people's lives or else what good am I? God always gives warnings and lots of them, so I am grateful to read this passage again and to be reminded of other passages in the Bible that let me know how serious God is about doing what is right, letting people have their freedom, or in this case producing fruit.
This is where the miracles come in. Dear Wizard I cannot tell you how often I am privileged to witness and see the mountains of despair lifted off of people's shoulders and thrown into the sea. I see on a daily basis the gnarly roots of sin that have grown in people's hearts uprooted! There is lots of faith out there and Jesus is keeping His promise through the power of prayer, that is for sure!
Quote: FrGambleHere is a tree that is a symbol of life and a fig tree that should produce some sweet fruit. By not producing fruit it is a symbol of failure, like the failure of the Pharisees and Saducees of the time to give new life and sweet compassion to the people. I take it as a warning to me to that I need to produce the sweet fruit of hope in people's lives or else what good am I? God always gives warnings and lots of them, so I am grateful to read this passage again and to be reminded of other passages in the Bible that let me know how serious God is about doing what is right, letting people have their freedom, or in this case producing fruit.
Did god warn the tree? Isn't the tree as god made it? Trees have no volition and they're not capable of action. They can't be held acountable for what they produce or fail to produce. So taking your frustrations out on a tree because it is as it is strikes me as an irrational act, lesson or no lesson.
Quote:This is where the miracles come in. Dear Wizard I cannot tell you how often I am privileged to witness and see the mountains of despair lifted off of people's shoulders and thrown into the sea.
In technical terms, that would be called "bait and switch." You know, offering one thing and delivering another. Jesus speaks of mountains, which one reasonably takes to mean, literal rock and dirt mountains. He speaks of the mountains throwing themselves into the sea, too. You change that to symbolic mountains, or immaterial mountains, of despair; which BTW do not throw themseles into the ocean, but are lifted and thrown by someone you did not specify (the person under despair, you, god?)
You'd be better off leaving mountains out of it and claiming you, or the church or the faith, can help people out of despair. It is plausible without the air of a conjuring trick going on.
This is an example of putting blinders on and just making up junk to defend the indefensible. Clearly, Jesus intended to say that if you are a true believer then you will get all that you pray for, even if you pray for something as stupid as tossing a mountain into an ocean. This story is complete and in context. There's really no other way to interpret it unless you start shoving words down Jesus' throat. And that's exactly what the quoted text above demonstrates.Quote: FrGambleNow some quick thoughts on this text:
I like the phrase "parable live" that someone used. Jesus is teaching using props. Here is a tree that is a symbol of life and a fig tree that should produce some sweet fruit. By not producing fruit it is a symbol of failure, like the failure of the Pharisees and Saducees of the time to give new life and sweet compassion to the people. I take it as a warning to me to that I need to produce the sweet fruit of hope in people's lives or else what good am I? God always gives warnings and lots of them, so I am grateful to read this passage again and to be reminded of other passages in the Bible that let me know how serious God is about doing what is right, letting people have their freedom, or in this case producing fruit.
This is where the miracles come in. Dear Wizard I cannot tell you how often I am privileged to witness and see the mountains of despair lifted off of people's shoulders and thrown into the sea. I see on a daily basis the gnarly roots of sin that have grown in people's hearts uprooted! There is lots of faith out there and Jesus is keeping His promise through the power of prayer, that is for sure!
Quote: Poll choice[] God Hates Figs
Whenever I go into a thread that is a poll, I read the poll choices before the posts.
I temporarily thought that this was a typo....
then, Jesus got mad and withered the tree. His followers
asked him why he did that, and Jesus says have faith in
god and you can move mountains.
This is a poor example of how to teach. A real teacher
would have said, look, I'm going to show you something.
Name something you'd like to see me do and I'll do it.
Somebody calls out 'wither that fig tree' and he does it.
Then he explains the faith thing. The way he did it has
no impact, its explaining things after the fact. Its taking
credit for something that might have happened naturally
and claiming he did it on purpose. This trick has been
done forever, Mark Twain used it in 'A Connecticut Yankee'
when he knew a total eclipse was coming and claimed
he did it with his magical powers. After the fact magic
is how most wizards work, claim something that isn't yours
or cause the event to happen by slight of hand. This
whole fig tree thing smells bogus to me.
Quote: progrockerYour post reminds me of this, EvenBob.
Thats hilarious! And its about right, thats the kind
of phony magic that Jesus pulled all the time. Its
embarrassing, and Bible scholars have openly said
they wish it wasn't there because it brings the
Gospels down to the traveling carnival level.
Quote: WizardI had this passage in mind when I wrote the following about moving mountains in the tread on Mt. 22:15-21.
Quote: Wizard
Why should anybody go "all in" for god, as you say? Does god even want us fawning all over him, or would he rather we live our lives normally like decent people? It doesn't seem like there is any payback for going the extra mile. It would be nice if it were like in Jesus' day where if you had faith you could heal the stick, walk on water, move mountains, etc.. You never see that today? Is it that nobody has enough faith or god has pulled back?
Nevertheless, I think this verse demands an explanation. I know FrG says that every new saint has to have a confirmed miracle, but with all the millions of Christians on earth, why aren't we seeing miracles on an everyday basis? This I really think deserves an answer. Either almost nobody has faith or Jesus is not keeping his promise. Which is it?
I believe God provides appropriately. If a "move a mountain" miracle is required, it will be provided. I think we fall into the trap of thinking that God is at our command, we can tell Him what we want, and like a replicator on Star Trek, He will, "make it so". Actually, if we are really within God's will, our selfish desires to walk on water, get something extra good for going the extra mile, or have a dealer bust when we double down, wither. Instead we will desire to do His will. Requests in our prayer's when we are within His will... no big surprise, are the ones that are answered.
I think a question to ponder is, "If I had evidence of a miracle, would it make a difference in my belief?"
Quote: AyecarumbaI think a question to ponder is, "If I had evidence of a miracle, would it make a difference in my belief?"
It might.
But my experience on finding evidence of miracles leads me to believe I'll never see any such evidence. Or that I will be presented with an unkown and be demanded to explain "if it wasn't a miracle, what was it?"
Quote: Ayecarumba"If I had evidence of a miracle, would it make a difference in my belief?"
We're living in a miracle world, if you just go back 30 years.
In 1980, the new iPhone would be considered a miracle.
All miracles are relevant to the era you live in.
Quote: NareedIt might.
But my experience on finding evidence of miracles leads me to believe I'll never see any such evidence. Or that I will be presented with an unkown and be demanded to explain "if it wasn't a miracle, what was it?"
I appreciate the honesty of your response Nareed. The Biblical record mentions thousands who actually witnessed Jesus himself perform miracles, yet did not remain faithful (and were hostile at the crucifixion.) I don't think that attitude in people has changed. This could help explain the lack of modern "common" miracles.
I think a thorough investigation of the of the available evidence can lead one to reasonably conclude that Jesus was real, and not a literary character, and that the Holy Bible we have today is an amazingly accurate representation of the original scrolls and letters from thousands of years ago. Everything one needs to make a reasoned decision is already available, but what each of us does with data is a matter of free will.
I encourage you to give all the evidence a fair hearing in the "court" of your heart and mind.
Quote: AyecarumbaI think a thorough investigation of the of the available evidence can lead one to reasonably conclude that Jesus was real, and not a literary character,
Oh, there's no question he was real. He was mentioned by other sources. There's also no question Muhammad(sp?) was real, either. I just don't believe one was the son of god, (or however that goes), or that the other was the last prophet sent by god. But that they were real men is an indisputable fact. Moses, now, is a more problematic figure.
Quote:and that the Holy Bible we have today is an amazingly accurate representation of the original scrolls and letters from thousands of years ago.
That's almost certainly not the case. There have been copies, translations, translations of translations, etc etc etc. Even if events were accurately recorded to begin with, they have undoubtedly been distorted. by now. And we simply don't know what other documents from the time did not make it to the Bible, nor why.
Now, the texts that make up the Bible are not historical documents. They are holy writings by human authors, many of them unknown, and each of them with an agenda. Since many of them claim all sorts of unlikely and outright impossible things (the flood being an impossibility, for example), they cannot be taken literally in the absence of any solid evidence, or even corroboration from other sources.
In simpler terms, some of the events described may have happened, sort of the way the Bible says, minus the miracles and other unliley or impossible occurences. For example, I've no doubt Jesus was asked questions by those who doubted him, and he may have answered just the way the Bible says he did. I've every doubt he performed any miracles, much less rose from the dead (at that, reviving from death can happen under certain circumstnaces; it's a well-documented medical fact, but not a miracle at all. Rising from apparent death goes even back a longer time and is even less miraculous).
BTW in what language were the various books of both parts of the Bible written in originally?
Quote:I encourage you to give all the evidence a fair hearing in the "court" of your heart and mind.
I'm willing to make a promise that I will, as soon as I see any evidence.
Don't actually do it, I'm just kidding. We won't get far in a study of Scripture if we don't know when to take the words literally or figuratively. In fact you won't be able to get through the very first few chapters of Genesis where we hear two accounts of creation. We also have to remember what a powerful tool hyperbole is and how it was used to great effect by many good rabbis, including Jesus. Also remember the power of the text is found in what it means spiritually to us, it is perfectly okay to hear the words of Christ and have those words bring up some other thought not explicitly mentioned but meaningful to you. It is not putting words into the mouth of Christ, it is allowing the Word of God to be fully heard beyond the literal words on the page.
This thought can also help us to see how the essential message that the Holy Spirit wants to convey through the Scriptures is preserved even through passage of time and the translations from Hebrew and Greek to all the known languages of man. As Nareed said the Bible is not meant to be a history textbook but a work of faith written by people inspired by the Holy Spirit to pass on only one person's agenda, God's.
Quote: EvenBob
Thats hilarious! And its about right, thats the kind
of phony magic that Jesus pulled all the time. Its
embarrassing, and Bible scholars have openly said
they wish it wasn't there because it brings the
Gospels down to the traveling carnival level.
I'm embarrassed you think that way. When you read the Gospel's it is very clear that Jesus does not want to be known as the magic man. He is constantly moving and dodging those who want to make him king or trying to shake those who follow him because of the show of it. This mentality is represented by Herod who wants to see the miracle man Jesus, not the Son of God Jesus. Jesus does not utter a word to him. If we are only seeking Jesus because of some miracle or look at Him as circus performer, it's no wonder you may perceive Him as silent. Come to Him as a brother who loves you and you may hear something.
Quote: FrGambleIf we are only seeking Jesus because of some miracle or look at Him as circus performer,
But all the tricks are a huge part of the religion.
They talk about them every Sunday in every
church. If he didn't want to be perceived as
the David Copperfield of his time, why did he
do sooooo many tricks?
Quote: FrGambleAs Nareed said the Bible is not meant to be a history textbook but a work of faith written by people inspired by the Holy Spirit to pass on only one person's agenda, God's.
I did not say that.
I said the books of the Bible were written by men with their own purpose and their own agenda. I said not one word about their writings being inspired by anything or anyone, not in the sense that some entity put thoughts or words into their minds. They wrote what they wanted to, as they wanted to, for the reasons they wanted to. they were men with free will and the will to use it.
FrGamble tends to put words in people's mouths.Quote: NareedI did not say that.
Quote: s2dbakerFrGamble tends to put words in people's mouths.
Including my Savior's according to you, come on baker what's up with that?
What's up with what exactly? Putting words in other people's mouths? That you'll have to work out between you and your invisible friend who lives on a cloud. Jesus quite clearly and explicitly says, in context, that if you are a true believer, your prayer wishes will be granted even if you pray for a mountain to be tossed into the sea:Quote: FrGambleIncluding my Savior's according to you, come on baker what's up with that?
"Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, Go, throw yourself into the sea, and it will be done."
He even used the magic words, "Truly I Tell You". If a fig tree displeases you, you can murder it if you are a true believer. These are the words directly quoted from the mouth of Jesus, in context. The meaning is clear and does not need embellishment. Jesus could have said "toss this mountain of despair into a sea of euphemisms" but He didn't. He chose His words and His lessons with care. The care of a paranoid man who was constantly being provoked to say something seditious so that He could be nailed to a tree for treason.
God hates figs!
Quote: s2dbakerFrGamble tends to put words in people's mouths.
I think I have a Thomas Henry Huxley of my own ;)
Seriously though while granted that Christ says those words you quoted could he not be using a little exageration to get across a point? I mean what good is it to move mountains around unless he also meant that if we have faith you could move something seemingly less daunting and more important than a mountain out of our way; like an addiction, or having low self-esteem? This point is made by Jesus at other times in the Gospel. For example the time the paralytic man is brought to him and he asks everyone something like, "is it easier to say to this man your sins are forgiven or get up and walk? but so that you may know the son of man has the power to forgive sins I say to you get up, take up your mat, and walk." (Mark chap. 2) For Jesus it is clear that the spiritual healings are more important than things like paralytics walking, dancing suns, or flying mountains. These other miracles are only a means to showing people that Jesus can deal with the real problems in people's spiritual lives not just the outward visible stuff.
Also the real context of the passage is His entrance into Jerusalem where with courage and fearlessness He cleanses the temple and proclaims a series of stinging parables against the Pharisees. This story about the fig tree becomes then even more clearly an image of how Jesus views the leaders of the day who are producing no fruit.
God loves figs or else why would he be so bummed there aren't any on the tree! God loves you too! Peace.
Quote: FrGambleOkay I'm sensing a little hostility here s2dbaker
I guess you have figured out by now that you have plunged into a pool full of crocodiles. This particular pool attracts a different set of gamblers, I think we can agree on that, and differs from a typical set of gamblers. Pretty clear to me now that it is a more hostile set to your purposes than I might have imagined. On the other hand, it's not clear to me what you might have expected bringing what you do to the forum. It's been a bit unusual to say the least.
Quote: FrGambleGod loves figs or else why would he be so bummed there aren't any on the tree!
Then he hates fig trees?
I know this slogan didn't originate in your branch of Christianity, but it seems to be very popular: hate the sin, not the sinner. I guess they were referring to the fig tree passage?
Quote: s2dbakerAgain, a giant paragraph to try and explain away a very simple message. That message being, believe and your prayers will be answered even if it's stupid. There is no need to obfuscate unless that message doesn't gibe with your personal outlook. In this case, it apparently does not. Perhaps you need to choose a better God to worship. This one is making you look like a hypocrite.
Dude, the real question is will your posts be answered even if they are stupid?
Quote: FrGambleSeriously though while granted that Christ says those words you quoted could he not be using a little exageration to get across a point? I mean what good is it to move mountains around unless he also meant that if we have faith you could move something seemingly less daunting and more important than a mountain out of our way; like an addiction, or having low self-esteem?
Have you ever driven through a mountainous region? Highways go around mountains and, sometimes, through the edges of mountians that have been blasted away. This type of highway contruction is dangerous and expensive. The highways are slow, because of the many curves, and face constant dangers of rock- and mud-slides (and in cooler climates, avalnches). Believe me, there's a very parctical need, if it were possible, to move mountains.
That said, problems like addiction or self-esteem don't necessarily require faith. I'm not saying prayer won't do any good. It may, as a mechanism by which a person can discharge or analyze their feelings and motivations, NOT because god will do anything for them (no god = no possibility of god acting). But that depends ont he aprticular individual. It's like some addicts can kick an addiction on their own, some require help, some require medical help from psychiatry to methadone and so on. That goes for all such problems, too. Granted modern psychiatry and psychology leave a lot to be desired, nevertheless they can be of some help.
Take me, for instance. I've had a weight problem all my life. Recently I've made great strides tackling it. Procedurally I've identified some bad habits and am breaking away from them, and I've also developed a taste for healthier food options. But those are things I've known about for years. As Larry niven said: no diet works if it's not followed. To follow it requries motivation. I've found mine and, mostly, I've stuck with it. I've lost a lot of weight and, so far, gone down three sizes.
And all without uttering a single prayer or even offering to sacrifice as much as a meal worm to any deity.
Quote: NareedAh, so when a sincerely devout man earnestly prays that his five year old son won't die of cancer, and the child does die, then it's because his continued life did not fit in with god's purpose?
Not necessarily. No one can pretend to completely understand God and his ultimate plan - that's why it's called faith. I completely understand when people disbelieve, as much of religion is hard to make sense of.
But in your example above, I'd say it's plausible that perhaps God, knowing this five year old son was going to grow up, fall away from God and end up in hell, decided to take him home to heaven instead.
For the record, I too sense hostility, but not from you.Quote: s2dbakerDon't confuse analysis with hostility. I'm not hostile, just confused.
Not to derail the thread, but, about 30 years ago, I called a Sunday night radio talk show hosted by a priest. I asked why/how small children are expected to honor/love their parents, when it's the guy in the red suit bringing them the goodies.Quote: s2dbakerIt would be similar (not identical, just similar) to trying to convince a 5 year old that there is no Santa Claus despite his or her deeply held beliefs.
I don't remember the reply, but it sounded like BS to me.
Edit: Rather than derail the thread, I created a new thread for it:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/6984-santa-god-parents-lies/
"Messing" and sarcasm doesn't come off well in an internet forum. It's often misinterpreted and should be avoided.Quote: FrGambleI'm just messing with you a little bit, sorry about that.
Quote: DJTeddyBear"Messing" and sarcasm doesn't come off well in an internet forum. It's often misinterpreted and should be avoided.
Some evidence here and there that FrGamble is not much practiced in Cyberspace. We'll have to see how this turns out.
Quote: bruskiNot necessarily. No one can pretend to completely understand God and his ultimate plan - that's why it's called faith.
I agree: that's why it's called faith. But I fail to see where god gets the gall to impose a plan on beings with free will.
Quote:I completely understand when people disbelieve, as much of religion is hard to make sense of.
Perhaps because it's a concatenation of different eras and different ideologies, with contradictions and all?
Quote:But in your example above, I'd say it's plausible that perhaps God, knowing this five year old son was going to grow up, fall away from God and end up in hell, decided to take him home to heaven instead.
I find that cruel and despicable.
1) it assumes god knows the future and it is immutable. This negates our free will and, less importantly, god's own free will.
2) it robs the hypothetical son of the opportunity to make a life for himself, and the father of seeing that and taking part in it.
Quote: s2dbakerThe bible says X but you say it really means Z which is a much nicer message but has little to do with the X in the text. .
Its called 'spin'. The bible people have been trying
to spin the more repugnant stuff in the bible for
a few thousand years. They have to do something,
it can't stand for what it is.
Quote: NareedI agree: that's why it's called faith. But I fail to see where god gets the gall to impose a plan on beings with free will.
Perhaps because it's a concatenation of different eras and different ideologies, with contradictions and all?
I find that cruel and despicable.
1) it assumes god knows the future and it is immutable. This negates our free will and, less importantly, god's own free will.
2) it robs the hypothetical son of the opportunity to make a life for himself, and the father of seeing that and taking part in it.
That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't pretend to understand that much about God or religion in general so I can't really debate you here.
In my studies I have been taught and encouraged to let the Scriptures speak to me in ways that often go past the literal interpretation. Some people are not comfortable with this for religious reasons or because they want to trap the Scriptures in their literal meaning so it sounds strange to us. It is kind of like freezing an ancient fire (I know impossible) and insisting that we have to use it without thawing it out. It will have no purpose or help us now in 2011. The Bible was meant to be ever ancient, ever new so when we don't allow interpretations that make more sense to us now, it does sound silly or not important. I need to let people interpret the Bible literally if that is where they are at, but please remember it is not spin to attempt to get at the heart of what was said then and the meaning it has for us today. Peace!
Quote: FrGambleThe Bible was meant to be ever ancient, ever new so when we don't allow interpretations that make more sense to us now, it does sound silly or not important.
Victor Hugo is reported to have said "If I wrote only for my time, I would have broken my pen long ago." Hugo's works should not be seen as merely depictions of some aspects of France in his time. They are that, but they are not about that. They're about human lives, values and relationships.
Insofar as the same is true of even older works, they remain relevant to this day. Even ancient works that would seem to lack any relevance today, liek Sun Tzu's "The Art of War," which isn't about military tactics with the weapons of the time, but about military philosophy (more or less).
So yes, old fiction can retain value through even thousands of years. But it should not, and must not, be taken to mean more than its literal meaning makes plain. reading between the lines is one thing. Changing the meaning is another matter entirely. If god promises to visit punishment unto the 4th generation (or whatever), then that's what he means.
Quote:Peace!
I've been meaning to ask: what's with the exclamation point? It seems inapropriate for that word. I'm guessing habit or some sort of in-joke, perhaps. but that's merely a stab in the dark.
