Natural Born Citizenship
Quote: RobSingerI don't see Obama as chicken here--just inexperienced & confused. The only thing he's REALLY afraid of is producing a birth certificate.
That was a very Jerry thing to say. As I understand it, his birth was recorded late. The state of Hawaii has examined the records and issued this in response to the conspiracy theorists, such as yourself: Hawaii news release.
Quote: WizardThat was a very Jerry thing to say. As I understand it, his birth was recorded late. The state of Hawaii has examined the records and issued this in response to the conspiracy theorists, such as yourself: Hawaii new release.
What? I didn't say I didn't believe Obama, and I 100% believe he was born where he says he was. I'm with Donald Trump and not JERRY on this--I believe it would go a long way in silencing his critics by just producing it. Get it over with once and for all.
Quote: RobSingerQuote: WizardThat was a very Jerry thing to say. As I understand it, his birth was recorded late. The state of Hawaii has examined the records and issued this in response to the conspiracy theorists, such as yourself: Hawaii new release.
What? I didn't say I didn't believe Obama, and I 100% believe he was born where he says he was. I'm with Donald Trump and not JERRY on this--I believe it would go a long way in silencing his critics by just producing it. Get it over with once and for all.
You said that Obama was "afraid" of producing a birth certificate. The only reason he would be "afraid" of doing so would be if it said he wasn't born in Hawaii--but he definitely was, and that's been proved. Don't weasel, Jerry.
Quote: WizardAs I understand it, his birth was recorded late. The state of Hawaii has examined the records and issued this in response to the conspiracy theorists, such as yourself: Hawaii new release.
The conspiracy has gotten deeper. They even have the Wiz.
(Wringing hands in consternation)
Quote: Wavy70The conspiracy has gotten deeper. They even have the Wiz.
(Wringing hands in consternation)
I have wondered just what WOULD happen if a valid birth certificate for Obama surfaced that said he was born in Burkina Faso or Iceland or on Mars. Probably nothing. Millions of people voted for him--I think that legitimizes his rule to a greater extent than any place of birth controversy could negate. And consider what we would get if Obama was removed from office:
JOE BIDEN!!!! GAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!
Quote: WizardThat was a very Jerry thing to say. As I understand it, his birth was recorded late. The state of Hawaii has examined the records and issued this in response to the conspiracy theorists, such as yourself: Hawaii new release.
A Dem administration issued the news release before the election. The person writing says: "I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures."
He doesn't say he actually saw the BC, he says he's seen and verified the D of H has it. Big difference. If he actually saw it, why doesn't he say 'I have seen and verified the BC.' What he's saying is somebody showed him the record of having the thing.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: WizardThat was a very Jerry thing to say. As I understand it, his birth was recorded late. The state of Hawaii has examined the records and issued this in response to the conspiracy theorists, such as yourself: Hawaii new release.
A Dem administration issued the news release before the election. The person writing says: "I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures."
He doesn't say he actually saw the BC, he says he's seen and verified the D of H has it. Big difference. If he actually saw it, why doesn't he say 'I have seen and verified the BC.' What he's saying is somebody showed him the record of having the thing.
"Seen" is past tense of "saw" so he sawed it. Birth certificate is not the proper term in many states. In CT it is a "record of live birth" NY calls it "Certificate and Record of live birth." In the UK they are Birth registers.
I think the "birthers" are giving the Dem's way too much credit. This whole conspiracy started 50 years ago and even the state department in the 1960's were in on it when they issued him a passport. State of IL too when they gave him a drivers license.
These same "birthers" are the one who claim his real middle name id Muhammad even though they never found any documents with that.
But after watching the "birthers" on the news I wonder how many of them had "BC's". I can see it. Give birth in the stall with fresh hay, take up a few cobras to thank the good Lord then mosey to Sam Drucker's store to call welfare office to up the dole.
Quote: WizardThat was a very Jerry thing to say. As I understand it, his birth was recorded late. The state of Hawaii has examined the records and issued this in response to the conspiracy theorists, such as yourself: Hawaii news release.
Well, I am not a conspiracy theorist, at least in the sense, that I could not care less where Obama was born. I know, it's the law and all, but to me personally, it doesn't matter, I prefer to judge the man by his actions.
But why does he refuse to provide the certificate? To me, that fact alone is 99% of proof that it does not exist, or does not look right in some way.
As to the statement your quoted, it means nothing, because of its wording. Several states have my original birth certificate on record, and I have not been born in the US.
Quote: RobSingerI don't see Obama as chicken here--just inexperienced & confused. The only thing he's REALLY afraid of is producing a birth certificate.
"Chickenhawk" was the cry of the left when we invaded Iraq. Also we always heard "Iraq didn't attack us omn 9/11!" I am just waiting for all the loudmouths who said that 2003-2008 to say it about Obama.
BTW: I never thought I would give Dennis Kusenich credit for ANYTHING but I do here.
Quote: weaselmanBut why does he refuse to provide the certificate?
Maybe it so the general population can be easily warned when a right-wing extremist is in our presence. At least it serves that purpose for me.
Quote: WizardQuote: weaselmanBut why does he refuse to provide the certificate?
Maybe it so the general population can be easily warned when a right-wing extremist is in our presence. At least it serves that purpose for me.
Quote:
Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups),
and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration
Quote: WizardQuote: weaselmanBut why does he refuse to provide the certificate?
Maybe it so the general population can be easily warned when a right-wing extremist is in our presence. At least it serves that purpose for me.
There is a school of thought that says he wants to keep the issue out there to keep the crazies riled up.
However, that govenor or whoever he was in HI who said, "I knew his parents" has no credibility with me. The odds of that are long, indeed. Why the media didn't question that statement is beyond me.
Quote: AZDuffman/q
There is a school of thought that says he wants to keep the issue out there to keep the crazies riled up.
That is something along the line of what I have come to believe.
I think the documentation does exist and that the Obama people have made a decision not to release it. It is very easy for his supporters to try to discredit anyone that disagrees with him by labling them a "birther". I, myself, have had this thrown at me.
Quote: WizardQuote: weaselmanBut why does he refuse to provide the certificate?
Maybe it so the general population can be easily warned when a right-wing extremist is in our presence. At least it serves that purpose for me.
The Jan Brewer Is Hot tee shirts is a good tell also.
Quote: buzzpaffRightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups),
and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration
I prefer to avoid all three types. We can't just paint a "B" on their foreheads, so letting them rant about Obama's birth certificate will have to serve as a figurative scarlet letter.
Quote: WizardI prefer to avoid all three types. We can't just paint a "B" on their foreheads, so letting them rant about Obama's birth certificate will have to serve as a figurative scarlet letter.
That's why you are the WIZ
Quote: WizardQuote: weaselmanBut why does he refuse to provide the certificate?
Maybe it so the general population can be easily warned when a right-wing extremist is in our presence. At least it serves that purpose for me.
I am afraid, I am missing your point. Can you elaborate?
Are you saying that asking for a proof that an elected official has the legal right to be in office is right-wing extremism?
Sounds a bit ... ummm ... extreme, doesn't it? :)
Edit: In light of the above post, are you suggesting that if Obama was white, it would be ok to ask for his birth certificate then? Or is it always wrong? Should trust all politician's words, and assume that asking for any kind of proof is "extremism", or is there a certain group (perhaps, ethnic or racial?) that must be trusted, while those who do not belong should still be subject to public scrutiny?
P.S.: Nice quote BTW. Asking where you were born is "hate-oriented"! :) You made my day.
Now, his college transcripts....
Quote: weaselmanQuote: WizardQuote: weaselmanBut why does he refuse to provide the certificate?
Maybe it so the general population can be easily warned when a right-wing extremist is in our presence. At least it serves that purpose for me.
I am afraid, I am missing your point. Can you elaborate?
Are you saying that asking for a proof that an elected official has the legal right to be in office is right-wing extremism?
Sounds a bit ... ummm ... extreme, doesn't it? :)
I think the point is only the Birthers don't believe he is born in America. They are the same folks who are convinced he is Muslim extremest trying to overthrow the country. The fact is a copy of his birth record has been published and a quick google search will give it to you. However even though that has been on line for a few years the birthers claim its a fake. So face it. These straw grabbers will doubt any document because it does not fit the story they want.
As to Trump calling for it. Well The Donald has always been good at getting people to pay attention to him... this time it's not due to colossal business failures.
I'm still waiting for the Rightfling to prove that Hillary has murdered a few people.
Quote: WizardI prefer to avoid all three types. We can't just paint a "B" on their foreheads, so letting them rant about Obama's birth certificate will have to serve as a figurative scarlet letter.
I do not see the problem with rejecting federal authority and prefering state authority, that is the way it is supposed to be. The Constitution iteslf says so.
]Quote: WizardFirst, the state of Hawaii has stated he was born there. That is good enough for me.
It hasn't. It stated that it has his birth certificate on file, it is not the same thing.
But even if it had, it is still not the same thing. Like I said earlier, I don't care where he was born, I just feel offended by his refusal to do something that seems like a simple and logical thing, despite repeated requests from the people he has been elected to rule over.
I think, it is arrogant and rude on his part. I also think that no white person would ever be able to pull anything like that.
Quote:Second, it isn't so much the birth certificate itself, but that those who rant about it always seem to be right-wing extremists about more important issues. Raising the birth certificate issue is a convenient red flag to not bother listening to anything said person has to say.
Perhaps, you are not interested in listening to what I am saying either, so this would be a moot point, but let me assure you, that I am not an extremist, right-wing or otherwise, which proves your first point wrong.
Quote: weaselman]
It hasn't. It stated that it has his birth certificate on file, it is not the same thing.
But even if it had, it is still not the same thing. Like I said earlier, I don't care where he was born, I just feel offended by his refusal to do something that seems like a simple and logical thing, despite repeated requests from the people he has been elected to rule over.
I think, it is arrogant and rude on his part. I also think that no white person would ever be able to pull anything like that.
Perhaps, you are not interested in listening to what I am saying either, so this would be a moot point, but let me assure you, that I am not an extremist, right-wing or otherwise, which proves your first point wrong.
I think that the reason he "refuses" to provide the information that you and others (of whatever stripe) so vehemently demand is that on the list of priorities, that would rank about 12,673rd. I for one realize that we hired him to do a job, a strenuous and time-consuming one at that, and to task him with proving that he isn't a secret Muslim or that he wasn't actually born on Jupiter is asking him to waste time that he doesn't have to spare.
Your racial comment is ridiculous. White politicians as well as black ones get put under the microscope and are the subject of pointless, asinine conspiracy theories every day. They cope with it with varying degrees of grace, but Obama's response has been the best one--ignore the Rush Limbaugh "dittoheads" and get on with the business of running the country--or "ruling over" it, as you inaccurately put it.
Quote: mkl654321to task him with proving that he isn't a secret Muslim or that he wasn't actually born on Jupiter is asking him to waste time that he doesn't have to spare.
no one here is asking him to prove he isn't a Muslim, and a phone call from a low-level aid to the appropriate registrar of deeds would settle the question without taking too much time from his NCAA bracket.
He doesn't produce the proof because he chooses not too.
Quote: CalderWhile I think the issue is moot,
no one here is asking him to prove he isn't a Muslim, and a phone call from a low-level aid to the appropriate registrar of deeds would settle the question without taking too much time from his NCAA bracket.
He doesn't produce the proof because he chooses not too.
Uh, no....that's reading his mind, and ascribing motives to his actions (or lack thereof) without basis. Of course, the "birthers" use that as a pretext to rave like loons on talk radio. I'm sure that Obama feels that the question of his place of birth has been more than adequately answered, which would be the real reason why he chooses not to deal with the issue any longer. It's a waste of time, and its only use is to keep a certain number of right-wing nutjobs glued to their phones waiting for a chance to talk to Sean or Rush, rather than having them go outside and possibly hurt themselves.
Quote: mkl654321Uh, no....that's reading his mind, and ascribing motives to his actions (or lack thereof) without basis.
Quote: mkl654321I'm sure that Obama feels that the question of his place of birth has been more than adequately answered, which would be the real reason why he chooses not to deal with the issue any longer.
I guess you just know him better than I.
Quote: mkl654321I think that the reason he "refuses" to provide the information that you and others (of whatever stripe) so vehemently demand
I don't "demand" it, vehemently or not. Personally, I don't care if he provides it. It is too late now anyway, and, if he decided to do it now, it would not change my opinion of him one way or the other.
Quote:is that on the list of priorities, that would rank about 12,673rd.
Exactly. That's what I said I thought was offensive, arrogant and rude on his part.
Quote:I for one realize that we hired him to do a job, a strenuous and time-consuming one at that, and to task him with proving that he isn't a secret Muslim or that he wasn't actually born on Jupiter is asking him to waste time that he doesn't have to spare.
He was asked to provide it before we hired him, actually, as a precondition to hiring him (for whatever reason, the precondition is you have to be born in US to be hired), and it was not high enough on his priority list back then either.
It's like if you applied for a teaching job, and the school principal asked you to produce your diploma, and you refused, because you had higher priorities.
Quote:Your racial comment is ridiculous.
It wasn't mine. It was Wizard's (and one other guy he quoted) - he said that asking for proof of eligibility for office was right-wing extremism. I just wanted to clarify if it should always be considered such or only in cases when the candidate is of a particular race.
Quote: weaselmanIt hasn't. It stated that it has his birth certificate on file, it is not the same thing.
In what kind of situation would the state of Hawaii have his birth certificate on file if he wasn't born in Hawaii?
Quote: weaselmanPerhaps, you are not interested in listening to what I am saying either, so this would be a moot point, but let me assure you, that I am not an extremist, right-wing or otherwise, which proves your first point wrong.
Much like crazy people don't know they are crazy, extremists don't think of themselves as extremists. They think they are the true centrists, and everybody else has extreme political views. That is how Fox News can say with a straight face that they are the "fair and balanced" ones, and the rest of the television media are left-wing puppets.
Not saying you personally are an extremist, but the denial does not make for evidence of it.
Quote: WizardIn what kind of situation would the state of Hawaii have his birth certificate on file if he wasn't born in Hawaii?
Well, I don't know the exact policies of the state of Hawaii, like I said earlier, several states have my birth certificate on file because I have applied for various jobs there requiring certain degree of clearance. Maybe Hawaii does not have such policies, maybe it does, I have no idea, and like I said several times, I don't really care.
The issue for me here is not where he was born, but how his arrogance made a simple procedural matter into a nation-wide issue.
Quote:Much like crazy people don't know they are crazy, extremists don't think of themselves as extremists. They think they are the true centrists, and everybody else has extreme political views.
Well, that does not apply to me either. I don't think that everybody else have extreme political views. In fact, I think, that most people do not.
Looking at you on the other hand ... So far, you seem to fit your own definition quite well (in that you don't think you are an extremist, but are quick to assign that label to others) ;)
Quote: WizardQuote: weaselmanBut why does he refuse to provide the certificate?
Maybe it so the general population can be easily warned when a right-wing extremist is in our presence. At least it serves that purpose for me.
That's not the role of a President. If he can do anything to put something to rest, especially about himself since he was elected by the people, then he should do it. By doing so, he would also be helping someone like you, who seems to require proof of everything in existence but this.
Quote: RobSingerThat's not the role of a President. If he can do anything to put something to rest, especially about himself since he was elected by the people, then he should do it. By doing so, he would also be helping someone like you, who seems to require proof of everything in existence but this.
As I said before, the News Release from the state of Hawaii is sufficient evidence for me. It says the state of Hawaii has his ORIGINAL birth certificate on file. In the event they had a foreign birth certificate in their files, it would have surely been a copy. The cover-up you are suggesting, at the highest levels of state government, also rings to me as very kooky. On par with the moon landing deniers, or the "secret regulations" that govern how video poker machines really work.
Let me pose this to you. Obama believes that when you put a watermelon rind on your head it gives you great enlightenment, and also can cure any physical ailment. My evidence that he believes this is that he has never denied it.
Quote: Wizard... My evidence that he believes this is that he has never denied it.
Has anyone asked him whether he believes that? And did he subsequently avoid denying it?
Quote: WizardIt says the state of Hawaii has his ORIGINAL birth certificate on file. In the event they had a foreign birth certificate in their files, it would have surely been a copy.
I am afraid, this is not true. Birth certificate is one of a few documents that can have many originals. You can go to your city clerk's office, and ask them to issue your birth certificate. They will do it (for a modest fee), and it will be an original.
All the states I mentioned before have my original (foreign) birth certificate on file.
Quote:The cover-up you are suggesting, at the highest levels of state government, also rings to me as very kooky.
I don't think there is a cover up to hide Obama's birth place. I am pretty sure there is a cover up to intentionally complicate this very simple and straightforward issue.
Quote: weaselman
He was asked to provide it before we hired him, actually, as a precondition to hiring him (for whatever reason, the precondition is you have to be born in US to be hired), and it was not high enough on his priority list back then either.
Except that they did provide it then:
Factcheck.org
Quote: FactCheck.orgIn June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate to quell speculative charges that he might not be a natural-born citizen.
Not unsurprisingly, that certificate was attacked as being fake, and the FactCheck page goes on to debunk each of those claims.
So they did provide it and all the attacks against it have been countered numerous times. On three different occasions the Supreme Court has dismissed or failed to take action on claims that involved him not being a native born citizen.
So what more would you like to see them do?
Quote: PaulEWogExcept that they did provide it then:
In that case, the issue is dead. I stand corrected.
Quote: WizardAs I said before, the News Release from the state of Hawaii is sufficient evidence for me. It says the state of Hawaii has his ORIGINAL birth certificate on file. In the event they had a foreign birth certificate in their files, it would have surely been a copy. The cover-up you are suggesting, at the highest levels of state government, also rings to me as very kooky. On par with the moon landing deniers, or the "secret regulations" that govern how video poker machines really work.
Let me pose this to you. Obama believes that when you put a watermelon rind on your head it gives you great enlightenment, and also can cure any physical ailment. My evidence that he believes this is that he has never denied it.
I fail to see how or why you keep saying I believe this is a cover-up when I do not. I understand you've selectively lowered your evidence requirement for this issue, and that's not really where I see the problem. As a President who was elected by the people, if there is any simple way he can make any large or small issue go away, then he should feel obligated to do it for them. What a news release says is irrelevant when it comes to proving anything, unless they actually follow up their words with documentation--which they suspiciously will not do. It is therefore the sole obligation of Obama to make the issue become a non-issue, which he also won't do and is why there remains unneeded suspicion. He is, in effect, creating problems when he doesn't need to.
I didn't know there were people who deny moon landings. On the vp machine issue, you're really out of your league on that.
Quote: RobSingerI didn't know there were people who deny moon landings. On the vp machine issue, you're really out of your league on that.
But all you need to do with the VP one is produce the evidence, but you continue to fail to do so, making it an issue when it doesn't need to be...
Are we talking new or original constitutionality of the Constitution?
Quote: rxwineCan't you be a U.S. citizen without a birth certificate? I imagine lots of people were born at home back in 1800, didn't get officially registered on their birthday, in that they were off in the wilderness -- maybe for months.
Are we talking new or original constitutionality of the Constitution?
You can be a citizen without a (US) birth certificate. You have to be born in US to be eligible for presidency. That's the constitutional requirement. I don't think, the birth certificate as such is ever mentioned there (in constitution), but nowadays, I doubt you'd be able to get a social security number, leave alone, run for office if you don't have a birth certificate.
Quote: Wizard
Much like crazy people don't know they are crazy, extremists don't think of themselves as extremists. They think they are the true centrists, and everybody else has extreme political views. That is how Fox News can say with a straight face that they are the "fair and balanced" ones, and the rest of the television media are left-wing puppets.
You seem to have a very negative view of Fox News. It should be very easy for you to document their bias. Remember that no one is denying bias on their commentary shows. Can you please document one news story broadcast that was biased.
As for the "main stream media" being biased, that debate was closed when CBS News and their anchor, Dan Rather, broadcast a negative attack on Bush in 2004 just before the election based on forged documents that their own experts told them were no good before the segment was aired. This was a blatant attempt to influence the upcoming election. The really pitiful thing has been Rather maintaining that his report was factual even after all of his "proof" was shown to be faked.
Quote: weaselmanYou can be a citizen without a (US) birth certificate. You have to be born in US to be eligible for presidency. That's the constitutional requirement. I don't think, the birth certificate as such is ever mentioned there (in constitution), but nowadays, I doubt you'd be able to get a social security number, leave alone, run for office if you don't have a birth certificate.
The Constitution says "natural borncitizen." John McCain was born in the then Canal Zone, US Territory but not the USA. A child born to military parents stationed in Germany would be eligible. Lots of Resident Aliens (green gard) have SS numbers and cards, I have hired a few in my time. I forget what it says exactly, but there is a stamp on the SS Card stating this fact or some other disclaimer. Maybe someone can help remind me what it says.
Quote: PaulEWogExcept that they did provide it then:
Factcheck.org
Not unsurprisingly, that certificate was attacked as being fake, and the FactCheck page goes on to debunk each of those claims.
So they did provide it and all the attacks against it have been countered numerous times. On three different occasions the Supreme Court has dismissed or failed to take action on claims that involved him not being a native born citizen.
So what more would you like to see them do?
It is amazing that the Birthers know so much about Obama's upbringing but seem clueless to Google. Excellent sleuth work PaulE.
Quote: Wavy70It is amazing that the Birthers know so much about Obama's upbringing but seem clueless to Google. Excellent sleuth work PaulE.
They would just say that Google is part of the conspiracy, and anything that doesn't support their side is faked.
Yes, thanks Paul.
Quote: thecesspitBut all you need to do with the VP one is produce the evidence, but you continue to fail to do so, making it an issue when it doesn't need to be...
It must seem so simple to someone on the outside. It's not publicly available information, I don't have the documents, I was informed about it by someone inside, and the machine I tested seems to confirm the information but does not absolutely do so. What has been even more convincing is what I've seen as a player.
Quote: WizardThey would just say that Google is part of the conspiracy, and anything that doesn't support their side is faked.
Yes, thanks Paul.
Like I said if the Dem's were as organized in conspiracy as some believe them to be we would have cities on Pluto by now.
Quote: AZDuffmanLots of Resident Aliens (green gard) have SS numbers and cards, I have hired a few in my time. I forget what it says exactly, but there is a stamp on the SS Card stating this fact or some other disclaimer. Maybe someone can help remind me what it says.
Perhaps, you are thinking about a printed statement on SS card, saying that having SSN does not imply having the right to work?
Quote: weaselmanPerhaps, you are thinking about a printed statement on SS card, saying that having SSN does not imply having the right to work?
Might be, has been 10 years or so since I saw one, I just remember the statement. Makes sense, though, so if they produce that card they cannot use it for an I-9.
The rules for determining that seem to be fairly similar to what you listed for Mexico.
Actually, being born in the US is not an absolute requirement (and may not be enough either)
Here is one example from wikipedia
George Romney (1907–1995), who ran for the Republican party nomination in 1968, was born in Mexico to U.S. parents. Romney’s grandfather had emigrated to Mexico in 1886 with his three wives and children after Utah outlawed polygamy. Romney's monogamous parents retained their U.S. citizenship and returned to the United States with him in 1912. Romney never received Mexican citizenship, because the country's nationality laws had been restricted to jus-sanguinis statutes due to prevailing politics aimed against American settlers.[50] George Romney therefore had no allegiance to a foreign country.
