MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
August 4th, 2017 at 9:29:18 AM permalink
Our son in law is in hospital, experiencing symptoms of his body rejecting his transplanted lungs.

He's now in a medically induced coma: it doesn't look encouraging.

The question I struggle with is simply this: if the doctors feel his demise is imminent, should he be allowed to awaken so that loved ones can attempt to have some final interaction with him, to "say goodbye?"

Or is it best to let him pass quietly while unconscious?

There are pro and cons to each choice.

Wake him up and the notion that he is about to die could "freak him out" and cause massive anxiety: not a good thing.

On the other hand, family may feel they were "cheated" if robbed of the opportunity to "say goodbye," as may he.

To my knowledge he's left no instructions, although he gave his wife durable power of attorney.

Me, I think I'd prefer to pass quietly, but it really is a coin flip.

Tough choice.
"What, me worry?"
TigerWu
TigerWu
  • Threads: 25
  • Posts: 5509
Joined: May 23, 2016
August 4th, 2017 at 9:46:59 AM permalink
Holy cow, that's a terrible predicament.

If it were me in that coma, I think I would just want to be let go.

If I were the loved one, I think I would just want to let that person go, too.

I think it would be too hard on everyone involved to bring someone back around for "I love yous" only to immediately just let them go.
FatGeezus
FatGeezus
  • Threads: 10
  • Posts: 563
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
Thanked by
OnceDearRogerKint
August 4th, 2017 at 9:54:31 AM permalink
In March, a death in the family prompted my wife to have a physical exam. My wife went to the doctor and after some tests, she was told that she needed heart surgery. She need a triple bypass. She was surprised because she never had any heart problems.

The morning of the operation, before we left for the hospital, all I could do was hold her and tell her that I loved her. Luckily everything turned out alright. She is now healthier than ever.

Now every once in a while I tell her I'm going to give her a hug. She smiles and we both hug each other.

Everyone should hug their loved ones. Hugs are free!

I hope everything turns out OK for him.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
August 4th, 2017 at 10:46:59 AM permalink
Wow. What a tough predicament.

I guess the fist question is, why is he in a medically induced coma?

The only reason I've ever heard for such a thing would be excessive pain.

Whenever someone dies, we start to think about the last time they saw that person, along with any missed opportunities to have one last chance 'to say goodbye.' We normally don't get that chance, yet we still manage to come to grips with reality, mourn, and eventually move on.

I assume your SIL knew he had a medical condition and knew he was getting the transplant. He knew there was a chance for complications. And before the operation, you all gave him your love and well wishes. Isn't that closure?

Will it help anyone get over it if he is awoken just to say goodbye? Will it help him?


About 2 years ago, my mother passed away. She had a stroke 20 years ago, which caused paralysis, and has been in a nursing home ever since.

The night before the funeral, I learned that my aunt and cousin were in town a couple months prior, but passed on visiting mom because the weather was turning bad and they got an earlier flight home.

At the funeral, during my speech, I told how I found out that mom died: "I was planning on visiting her on Sunday like normal, but on Saturday afternoon, a hole opened in my schedule. So I called to ask if I should come visit. She sounded fine, but told me to come on Sunday like I planned. About 5 hours later, we got the call that she was gone. So if there's anyone here who is upset because they missed their opportunity to say goodbye (I'm looking right at my cousin as I say this), stop beating yourself up, because I'm the guy who had the very last chance see her, and missed it."


I'm not sure if that story will help you or not, or why I told it. I guess what I'm saying is, making a decision that will allow you to feel good at that time, might make you feel crappy later. Particularly if your decision causes pain to ANYONE, not just your SIL. And bear in mind, no matter which way you decide, there will be pain. And regret. But there will also eventually be healing, and moving on.

Best wishes. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
August 4th, 2017 at 10:58:16 AM permalink
It is difficult.
That is why hospitals prefer recently executed documents that address specific issues or atleast that appoint a person to make the difficult decisions. Saying goodbye is for the family, not him. But if he has something to say he might appreciate the opportunity and I'm sure it won't be ;presented to him as 'you've got two minutes left'.

I would keep him in the coma and see if newly discovered drugs work or not.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
August 4th, 2017 at 11:00:46 AM permalink
I don't think anyone can answer that question except your daughter. FWIW, I agree with you; he should be allowed to pass quietly, not in pain, not in fear, if that time has come.

I also think that in nearly all cases, a person in a coma can still hear, and it might help you/her greatly to know that. Speak to him everything you or has loved ones need him to hear, for your own sakes.

Very sorry you and yours are enduring this.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Boz
Boz
  • Threads: 155
  • Posts: 5701
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
August 4th, 2017 at 11:11:40 AM permalink
So sorry to hear this V.
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
August 4th, 2017 at 11:23:58 AM permalink
My thoughts and prayers go out to your son and your family.
I think I would let him go without awakening.
Whatever your Daughter in Law decides, she will need your public support, especially if you disagree.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
boymimbo
boymimbo
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
August 4th, 2017 at 11:37:17 AM permalink
I am sorry for the predicament.

I think it is a conversation to have with the daughter-in-law to figure this out. In circumstances like this, it's important to get the perspective and view of a wife, children, and parents. Even a life-long friend's thoughts need to be considered with hopefully an amicable answer worked out that everyone can live with without destroying a family's dynamics further.

In the end, the son's best interests are at hand. Were it me, I absolutely would want to know that I was going to die in order to say last words, instructions, I love yous etc. But with his lung transplant not working I would hope that he would have had those opportunities first and that he would have known that the outcome he is having had a reasonable probability of coming true.

But only you know your son and what he would have wanted. It is not about what YOU want. At this point in time, it is about what you think your son would have wanted. I would disregard any opinions that you know are based on selfishness or excuses ("I need to know where the 'will' is", "I need to tell him how much I love him") and go with what your son would actually want. That is an individual opinion based on a long term knowledge of your son.

Last year I lost an uncle, and my mother went to the hospital and was very upset by the way his children were dealing with their father's impending death, in that they wanted to have "one last beer" with their father, while my mother wanted to tell him stories. To me, I thought, this is probably what the uncle wanted - to see each person deal with his passing in their own particular way. It was not in my mother's purview to say what was right and wrong. All I can say is that long lost family dynamics really hit home in stressful times like these and can wedge families apart forever or can be a bonding experience.

Make an experience for the latter.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
August 4th, 2017 at 12:50:23 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear



I guess the fist question is, why is he in a medically induced coma?



In order to allow his lungs to heal; when awake he was breathing too hard, stressing his lungs, IIRC.

Basically as a calming maneuver to promote healing / repair.
"What, me worry?"
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 2549
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
August 4th, 2017 at 12:56:41 PM permalink
It depends on the people involved.

In theory, I'd want to be woken up. I'm not all that afraid of death (I think!) and hopefully would be even less so given time to process such a serious health issue. I'd probably want a little bit more time, to see everyone, to know what was happening, to reflect and enjoy my last bit of consciousness etc.

However, actually being woken up in this condition might be a lot uglier than one first imagines. How much pain? Can you really breath or speak? Has your mind deteriorated a lot?

And people are different. I had a conversation with my wife on a plane recently: If this plane was going to explode in an hour, would you want to know? I very much would want to know, she very much would not want to.

The philosopher, Epictetus, wrote a friend in the midst of a very painful death to say that it was the happiest day of his life, because he was reflecting on all of the time he'd spent among great friends.

Many others cannot accept the fact that they will die at all.

A religious, or semi-religious person might want time to cross their ts and dot their Is on that front.

I disagree with others, I think, insofar as the decision should be based mostly on the best guesses about what this guy would want, and less on what would make others feel best.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
August 4th, 2017 at 1:12:49 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

In order to allow his lungs to heal; when awake he was breathing too hard, stressing his lungs, IIRC.

Basically as a calming maneuver to promote healing / repair.



They don't want to impair the impulse to breathe but general sedation can suppress the desire to gasp and overstrain the lungs by not expelling air before trying to inhale.

It also gives them an opportunity to administer antioxidants that can improve the lung tissue. I think they give glutamine too.
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 209
  • Posts: 12166
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
August 4th, 2017 at 1:22:10 PM permalink
Since it's all a big guess, I would say, consult with the doctors about what he will go through physically waking up. Can you keep him under some calming drugs (opiates?) if awakened.

If you go in for an operation like that, you've already likely thought about your risky prospects and thought about death.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
OnceDear
OnceDear
  • Threads: 63
  • Posts: 7471
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
August 4th, 2017 at 1:32:23 PM permalink
I'm really sorry to hear of this situation Mr V. Please accept my condolences.

The decision making process is hard. Whatever the family decides to do it is preceded by and followed by 'what ifs' and 'did we do the right thing' It's worth evaluating as a family. No-one's opinion is wrong!

I assume that if he does get brought back to consciousness, that it will be a brief time.

We cannot know what he currently hears or feels and of course we cannot know how he would react to being woken up to basically be told 'You are dying and we woke you to say that we love you, but goodbye' The best we can do is consider from every point of view and evaluate dispassionately. Not at all easy.

I can only be pragmatic about this: Personally I feel, that to wake him would be more likely to bring him pain than joy. So from his point of view ( If I can guess ) he would be better off allowed to pass peacefully.

From the point of view of his loved ones, that leaves a big emptiness and unresolved situation. And ultimately those surviving loved ones have to decide whether they do what's best for him, or best for them. I can only think back to when my elderly father passed away. His time was up and he had long accepted that he was at the end of his tenure. There is no way on earth that I would put him through one moment of torment or even discomfort, just to satisfy my own needs for a last word. I loved him and still do, but he knew that and we knew he needed to pass. We don't stop loving our loved ones just because we let them go. We who survive get the chance to live on and support each-other and love others who are important to us. Doing that is an act of honouring our lost loved ones.

I really hope that your son-in-law defies the odds and does recover. If you report back that he did so, I'll raise a glass with you and to him.

Heck. I'll raise a glass anyway. Bless you all.

OD
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
gordonm888
Administrator
gordonm888
  • Threads: 60
  • Posts: 5005
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
August 4th, 2017 at 2:15:00 PM permalink
The original post in this thread was 8 years ago.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
OnceDear
OnceDear
  • Threads: 63
  • Posts: 7471
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
August 4th, 2017 at 2:18:14 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

The original post in this thread was 8 years ago.


where do you get that from Gordon?
August 4th, 2017 at 9:29:18 AM
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
August 4th, 2017 at 3:10:14 PM permalink
I posted / started this thread today, not eight years ago.

Hell, eight years ago my son in law was hale, hearty, and hadn't had a double lung transplant.

"8 years?"
"What, me worry?"
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
  • Threads: 117
  • Posts: 6219
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
August 4th, 2017 at 3:42:01 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

The original post in this thread was 8 years ago.


Was that meant for this thread?
Mosca
Mosca
  • Threads: 191
  • Posts: 4140
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
August 4th, 2017 at 4:45:54 PM permalink
I'm sorry to hear you are in this situation. I hope it works out.

If it comes to it, you let him go quietly. You can say your goodbyes as he rests. I've been through this, and that's what we did, and it felt completely right in the moment.
A falling knife has no handle.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
August 4th, 2017 at 5:32:18 PM permalink
First, my condolences to you and the family.

To answer the question, if I were the one on death's door, I would prefer to go peacefully at the expense of the heartache of being woken up just to be told I'm about to die and say my goodbyes. Maybe its a selfish decision. However, after watching my father die the slow and painful way, I think we should all hope to go peacefully in our sleep.

If it were my loved on about to die and my call on waking them up I would also say "no" for the same reasons.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
  • Threads: 212
  • Posts: 8277
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
August 4th, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM permalink
I think it is best to stay in the coma, based on my belief he is in a medically induced coma so he doesn't go into cardiac arrest. One of my loved ones had the Michael Jackson drug propofol for 3 months because of an infection and he pulled through. Here's hoping nobody has to say goodbye yet and he survives it. Be sure to get a second opinion for him just in case, maybe try taking him somewhere else.
I am a robot.
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
Thanked by
onenickelmiracle
August 4th, 2017 at 5:47:46 PM permalink
There is nowhere else to take him, with as compound and complicated as his double lung transplant issues are.

We're not concerned about the quality of care, it is top flight.

Thanks to all for the kind words and comments.

Situations like his certainly make me realize the truth of the expression "life is a gift."
"What, me worry?"
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 209
  • Posts: 12166
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
August 4th, 2017 at 6:11:21 PM permalink
I would definitely inform his doctors they should tell future patients about this possibility AHEAD of time.

It's a shame it wasn't brought up before it happened so you would have some directions in hand already.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
GWAE
GWAE
  • Threads: 93
  • Posts: 9854
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
August 4th, 2017 at 6:18:00 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I would definitely inform his doctors they should tell future patients about this possibility AHEAD of time.

It's a shame it wasn't brought up before it happened so you would have some directions in hand already.



I don't think I would want to say goodbyes before hand. Thst would in theory make him not fight as hard.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 209
  • Posts: 12166
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
August 4th, 2017 at 6:32:39 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

I don't think I would want to say goodbyes before hand. Thst would in theory make him not fight as hard.



It's just that whatever one's choice is, you need to know about the possibility in the list of possible outcomes. Now the family has to guess.

Most likely doctors advised on general arrangements if one wants extraordinary actions or not, but this is a particular they probably didn't address. (is my guess anyway_)
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 3540
Joined: Dec 28, 2014
August 4th, 2017 at 9:20:06 PM permalink
Personally I would allow him to remain unconscious if possible.

I'm a volunteer EMT/Firefighter and I've unfortunately witnessed some pretty terrible things. Seeing Someone dying with agonal respirations might be the one I wish I could unsee the most, and that was a complete stranger. I imagine it would be 10x as traumatizing to see a loved one going through that.
  • Jump to: