DiscreteMaths2
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April 27th, 2017 at 12:22:03 AM permalink
I am not sure if there any other magic fans on here but I like learning how tricks are done and I came across this performance. It is an act by Vinny Grosso on Penn and Teller Fool Us and he indeed did fool them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gpq4ML2DDo

I have been trying to figure out how he did it and got confirmation about some aspects of the trick:
-He is really 100% naked
-The tape on his eyes is legitimate, he is actually blind and is not doing any peeking
-The assistant for the trick is not a stooge or a plant
-The cards are not marked or flavored
-The trick can even be done with a borrowed deck
-The card choice is not forced and can be done with any card selection
-He didn't have anything up is butt (or any other orifice)
-The second deck isn't important, he accidentally dropped the deck rehearsing the trick and added the second deck to the routine as a gag
-The screen is not gimmick-ed and is just a screen
-He does not have the uncanny ability to lick cards and know what they are
-According to the rules of the show you can have people signaling you, they cannot pretend to be members of the audience however

Some hints from Vinny:
-Probably couldn't have done this trick that long ago (eg. 25 years ago)
-Cannot do the trick in the dark

Any ideas on how it was done ? This really is an amazing trick.

My guess is that he has a person shine a lazer on his naked body that he can feel and has system to work out which card is which. (but even I really don't buy that)
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Ayecarumba
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April 27th, 2017 at 1:08:24 AM permalink
The easiest way to do it is to use a plant who is instructed to select a pre arranged card.

Other ways:
- hide a wireless signaling device in the screen or the frame. It could buzz him the suit and rank.
- coat the cards with clear flavors that indicate suit and/or rank.
- he could have swallowed a signaling device
- he could have a receiver up his butt.

Since he removes the blinders before stating the rank, it could be a two part gaff. Flavored cards for the suit, and a signaller in the house for the rank. That would be my guess.

I enjoy magic tricks too, and grew up around the time Doug Henning was on tv regularly, and a Marshall Brodene? Magic kit could be bought by dialing the number on the commercial. You could make endless rice spill over a bowl, or poke your wand through a balloon in a tube without popping it... It was a different time.
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beachbumbabs
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April 27th, 2017 at 1:20:59 AM permalink
I don't know. But if I were doing the trick, given all of the rules and stipulations, I would have a sound rechnician, because hearing is unrestricted. He has a cut-in to the sound system with his own cue board.

They know about how long the patter is going to be, but the sound is sort of looping underneath the chatter.

The key is that the selected card is shown to the audience. So the sound tech knows what it is, too. And the soundtrack has a cue point coming up, where the selected card has a sound or song associated with it can be cut to.

Maybe it's Morse Code in the percussion. Maybe it's in a melody fragment, with no recognizable song in the instrumental, just atmospheric vamping music. Maybe a unique bass line.

But whichever, he has practiced matching the sound cue played to each card identity. And the sound tech cues up the correct music to the card, once identified. The magician rambles on with bits and patter, and the music fades into the background for everyone but him, and he knows just when to listen for his cue; might even be several quick ones, a color choice "R" (not really needed), a suit choice "D", then a rank choice "K" .

There really only need to be 17 sounds or tracks memorized. 4 suits, 13 ranks. He can string it out as long as he wants after he has his cue, do all the tastings, the jokes, hear the audience for timing, etc. His only requirement is his own soundtrack and his sound engineer where he can see the card, which is why the trick can't be done in the dark.

I think the other hint, about it being a modern trick, is because you'd need a responsive and unobtrusive shift from the intro music to the cued music regardless of the card, because when the music starts you don't know what the card will be, you need the music to fade into the background, and the seque to be unnoticeable. That would take a computer that can mix and blend your prepared musics on the spot, something pretty complicated and modern. Your engineer might be able to hand-fade it, but not as smoothly. Possibly also wireless technology to relay and broadcast from your laptop or something.
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RS
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April 27th, 2017 at 2:11:17 AM permalink
Interesting thought babs. Around the 4:55 time there's an odd clicking sorta sound. Not sure if that's part of the trick and it's a signal in morse code or something....or if it's not related to the trick at all. But even then, the sound thing wouldn't matter if it's in the dark and can certainly be done 25 years ago (I think?).

Maybe the hints are no hints at all. He's just trying to confuse more people.


Last time I saw the tricks for Fool Us (on YouTube) and the foolers were asked questions......what if the fooling part is just them lying to Penn & Teller?


Maybe he just got really lucky and made a guess? If he does the trick 52 times, he expects to be a genius and get it right once.
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April 27th, 2017 at 6:40:06 AM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

-The cards are not marked or flavored



I was going to say the cards were flavored but I'll take your word for it that they're not. My second guess would be that he was signaled the card value from an assistant somehow. Maybe somebody in the audience coughing. I think of this because somebody cheated on Who Wants to be a Millionaire that way. Maybe somebody pounding on the stage, perhaps below it, and he could feel the vibrations with his feet.

Here is my best guess, which I just though of. He had a vibrating suppository shoved deep enough up his ass that nobody could see it. Somebody in the audience signaled him the card and the suppository vibrated it to him in Morse code or something. Yep, I'm going with that.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Melco
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April 27th, 2017 at 8:27:59 AM permalink
He claims that 1) the cards were not doctored, and 2) that the card did not need to be shown to anyone for this trick to work. If both of those are true, I can't figure out how he did it.

Reference: Vinny Grosso AMA

Since the show is effectively a game show, there is a judge (I believe in the past it's been the magician Johnny Thompson) who knows exactly how the trick is done in order to judge whether or not Penn and Teller were fooled. Stooges have, in the past, been easy for P&T to pick out. Since he says he doesn't need to show the card, I doubt there's a stooge involved.
Ayecarumba
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April 27th, 2017 at 9:07:44 AM permalink
DM2, What is the source of the "confirmations" regarding possible ways the trick was pulled off?

I note that the second deck was not as closely inspected as the first. The card could have been "forced" to Carrot Top.

Edit: I rewatched it, and at ~4:55 Carrot Top basically shows him the card behind the screen.

Given all that, the remotely controlled vibrator in the rectum is the "fast and dirty" way to pull it off as stipulated.
Last edited by: Ayecarumba on Apr 27, 2017
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DiscreteMaths2
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April 27th, 2017 at 10:24:58 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

DM2, What is the source of the "confirmations" regarding possible ways the trick was pulled off?

I note that the second deck was not as closely inspected as the first. The card could have been "forced" to Carrot Top.

Edit: I rewatched it, and at ~4:55 Carrot Top basically shows him the card behind the screen.

Given all that, the remotely controlled vibrator in the rectum is the "fast and dirty" way to pull it off as stipulated.



The magician talks about the trick and answers questions on social media and when he does personal appearances. I have no reason to believe he is lying as he has revealed how he did it to certain magicians and also has publicly revealed how he has done other tricks in the past. Also for P&T Fool Us you show the trick to advisors and cannot lie about how anything is done when you are on stage for your performance.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
DiscreteMaths2
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April 27th, 2017 at 10:44:35 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I don't know. But if I were doing the trick, given all of the rules and stipulations, I would have a sound rechnician, because hearing is unrestricted. He has a cut-in to the sound system with his own cue board.

They know about how long the patter is going to be, but the sound is sort of looping underneath the chatter.

The key is that the selected card is shown to the audience. So the sound tech knows what it is, too. And the soundtrack has a cue point coming up, where the selected card has a sound or song associated with it can be cut to.

Maybe it's Morse Code in the percussion. Maybe it's in a melody fragment, with no recognizable song in the instrumental, just atmospheric vamping music. Maybe a unique bass line.

But whichever, he has practiced matching the sound cue played to each card identity. And the sound tech cues up the correct music to the card, once identified. The magician rambles on with bits and patter, and the music fades into the background for everyone but him, and he knows just when to listen for his cue; might even be several quick ones, a color choice "R" (not really needed), a suit choice "D", then a rank choice "K" .

There really only need to be 17 sounds or tracks memorized. 4 suits, 13 ranks. He can string it out as long as he wants after he has his cue, do all the tastings, the jokes, hear the audience for timing, etc. His only requirement is his own soundtrack and his sound engineer where he can see the card, which is why the trick can't be done in the dark.

I think the other hint, about it being a modern trick, is because you'd need a responsive and unobtrusive shift from the intro music to the cued music regardless of the card, because when the music starts you don't know what the card will be, you need the music to fade into the background, and the seque to be unnoticeable. That would take a computer that can mix and blend your prepared musics on the spot, something pretty complicated and modern. Your engineer might be able to hand-fade it, but not as smoothly. Possibly also wireless technology to relay and broadcast from your laptop or something.



Really good guess. I didn't even think about using the sound board to your advantage. If it is any kind of audio effect on the stage monitors the TV audience will never hear it and its very unlikely anyone in the audience would either. Penn and Teller might be able to hear it but if its subtle and they are busy watching for some sleight of hand it would be easy to miss.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Rigondeaux
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April 27th, 2017 at 1:54:56 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard



Here is my best guess, which I just though of. He had a vibrating suppository shoved deep enough up his ass that nobody could see it. Somebody in the audience signaled him the card and the suppository vibrated it to him in Morse code or something. Yep, I'm going with that.



I believe the device you are looking for is called a ben wa ball.

Imagine if he his whole magic career was just an excuse to shove things up his ass.
rxwine
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April 27th, 2017 at 6:15:40 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is my best guess, which I just though of. He had a vibrating suppository shoved deep enough up his ass that nobody could see it.



There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
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May 1st, 2017 at 8:04:20 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

I believe the device you are looking for is called a ben wa ball.



I thought it was spelled Benoit.

Quote: Melco

He claims that 1) the cards were not doctored, and 2) that the card did not need to be shown to anyone for this trick to work. If both of those are true, I can't figure out how he did it.



Hmmm. I don't necessarily believe these claims. Magic is all about deception. It would have been more impressive if Carrot Top showed the card to the camera but not the audience.

Then again, I think the secret of using Morse code, or some equivalent, to convey information between magicians is not unknown and certainly Penn and Teller know about it and wouldn't have been fooled. Here is a good use of this:



I think the communication is both relayed and received with sensors in the shoes. Much like card counters using computers. Not to say I wasn't impressed with this act. It is very well executed.

To get back on point, if we can rule out audience assistants and doctored cards, yup, I'm stumped too.
Last edited by: Wizard on May 1, 2017
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rainman
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May 1st, 2017 at 9:10:32 PM permalink
We know were being tricked and in most cases such as the video Wizard posted I believe we would
be naive to think hosts, producers, audience plants don't play a role. What happens if he asks
Heidi if she has her bag and she doesn't?
rxwine
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May 1st, 2017 at 10:17:50 PM permalink
I'm not convinced he hasn't trained himself to tell the difference between the color inks used on playing cards. Red or black is all he needs to know. Once that's possible it may be possible to get a shape with your tongue..

I had to watch a video to see how modern playing cards are made, and they do use colored ink.
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rxwine
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May 1st, 2017 at 10:24:52 PM permalink
He may also be accessing a chemical paste in his mouth that reacts to the surface of the cards making them vulnerable to chemical tasting of some sort.
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billryan
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May 1st, 2017 at 10:28:00 PM permalink
I really enjoy the Mac king show at Harrahs, having seen it about ten times. Its mixture of Comedy and magic, mostly sleight of hand.
A couple of years ago, I'm at the courtyard bar between Harrah's and what was then the IP.
He is outside helping hawk tickets to his show., and I'm at the bar drinking Mich Light and playing video poker.
I walk over about twenty feet and after watching him do a simple trick mention I really like his show. He thanks me and asks if he can buy me a beer. I say sure, thinking he's going to signal the bartender to get me one on the house, but no.
He looks up at the heavens, rolls his eyes, shakes his hands , reaches into the front pocket of his suit and pulls out an ice cold Mich light.
Either his suit is refrigerated with different brands of beer in each pocket or..........
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rainman
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May 2nd, 2017 at 12:38:14 AM permalink
Carrot top is clearly in on it, the guy pulls the second deck out after carrot has inspected him naked.
so unless they were truly up his ass they would have been seen. I believe carrot was told to pick
the K of D prior P&T may also be complicit after all its about money.
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May 2nd, 2017 at 6:47:18 AM permalink
Quote: rainman

Carrot top is clearly in on it, the guy pulls the second deck out after carrot has inspected him naked.
so unless they were truly up his ass they would have been seen. I believe carrot was told to pick
the K of D prior P&T may also be complicit after all its about money.



That's possible, but it would then be so easy.
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Ayecarumba
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May 2nd, 2017 at 9:28:54 AM permalink
I wonder how C.T. came to be the helper. Did he just happen to be wandering backstage, or sitting in the audience? Pretty fishy.

I think the possibility of a gaffed "modesty screen" should be explored. We, the TV audience never got to see the back of the screen. Usually in performances, there is an obligatory spin of the prop to show the audience that the back is the same as the front. We know that a second deck of cards in a rubber glove was produced, so what else is back there?? Perhaps a small video display that is tied to a pinhole camera mounted in the top of the rail. The magician just needs to be sure the face down card passes over the camera location, and there were a couple of opportunities for that to happen.

There are panels of glass that instantly turn clear or opaque with the flip of a switch. When opaque, they look like the inserts in the modesty screen. The video display could be hidden behind one of these panels in the back, so that even if the modesty screen was rotated, it would appear "clean".



This set up could be why the trick can't be performed in the dark. The display in the modesty screen would glow and give it away.

Are two pieces of self applied clear tape an effective blindfold? I think it would still be easy to peek.
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charliepatrick
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May 4th, 2017 at 4:13:04 PM permalink
I have no idea how it was done but can imagine the card details must be relayed to him somehow. Just a conspiracy theory but I did notice the plastic bag stayed near his right (left as we look at it) foot but they cut to Penn and Teller between his taking of the 2nd deck of cards and the glove/bag being at his feet.
DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2017 at 4:28:18 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I wonder how C.T. came to be the helper. Did he just happen to be wandering backstage, or sitting in the audience? Pretty fishy.



When he made the trick Jonathan Ross was supposed to be his helper. Since he is no longer the host of show and everyone involved thought it would be inappropriate to have Allison help him so they needed someone else. The producers thought it would be funny if Carrot Top did it and he was down. Also the opacity of the screen was edited for tv because you could vaguely make out the outline of his junk in person.
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Ayecarumba
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May 4th, 2017 at 4:32:24 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

...Jonathan Ross...



That's a bigger mystery to me. The Producers vanished him.
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Wizard
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May 4th, 2017 at 5:33:25 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Just a conspiracy theory but I did notice the plastic bag stayed near his right (left as we look at it) foot but they cut to Penn and Teller between his taking of the 2nd deck of cards and the glove/bag being at his feet.



Now that you mention it, I think the dropping of the original deck must have had something to do with it. Or it is a deliberate red herring.

I found this forum where the magician answers questions about the trick.
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DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2017 at 6:27:03 PM permalink
I just noticed something peculiar. He disrobes in front of the screen but then for his final bits of clothes he moves very precisely to the right and dumps his stuff there while telling Carrot Top to stay over to the left. A weird black object that looks like a strap or insole appears out of nowhere as he takes off his one shoe. I believe he might have his signaling device in his shoe. P&T never check his clothes.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
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May 4th, 2017 at 8:06:28 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

I believe he might have his signaling device in his shoe. P&T never check his clothes.



In the forum I linked to above he says he can do the trick without the audience reveal and that he did it to let the television viewers feel more engaged.
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DiscreteMaths2
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May 4th, 2017 at 8:34:53 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

In the forum I linked to above he says he can do the trick without the audience reveal and that he did it to let the television viewers feel more engaged.



Perhaps his crew member is back/side stage and can still see the card somehow ? Because in magic there are only 5 ways I know of that you can know what card is #1 marked cards, #2 gimmick-ed deck/shuffle, #3 forced card, #4 math trick, #5 mirrors or other visual aid. 1-3 has been ruled out and I fail to see how this trick is doing any math. So to me that just leaves option #5 in that a crew member of his has the ability to see the selection. If the card selection is truly hidden information to both him and any confederates, this whole thing is even more next level.
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May 4th, 2017 at 9:37:35 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

Perhaps his crew member is back/side stage and can still see the card somehow ?



Yes, that's possible. However, I got the impression from the forum I linked to that the magician wasn't aware of the back stage setup before the show and didn't have time to properly set up a confederate with a camera with a telescopic lens.

Somehow I think the answer is simple and doesn't depend on too much technology.
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Ayecarumba
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May 4th, 2017 at 9:45:40 PM permalink
My last guess: GoPro hidden in the floor like the semi-buried ones they use on Monday Night Football or NASCAR tracks. Since it is pointing up, it has a clear view of the card as it is passed to him for licking. Confederate watching the monitor then signals him using a wireless device, either in the floor, or... somewhere else. This method will still reveal the card even if the audience doesn't get to see it, because the card has to be passed over the camera for licking.
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Mooseton
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May 5th, 2017 at 1:38:33 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

My last guess: GoPro hidden in the floor like the semi-buried ones they use on Monday Night Football or NASCAR tracks. Since it is pointing up, it has a clear view of the card as it is passed to him for licking. Confederate watching the monitor then signals him using a wireless device, either in the floor, or... somewhere else. This method will still reveal the card even if the audience doesn't get to see it, because the card has to be passed over the camera for licking.



He responded that he couldn't do this trick 25 years ago "probably" so you may be onto it I think.
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May 5th, 2017 at 6:46:16 AM permalink
That would seem in theory a way to do it. However, in the forum I linked to I got the impressed he was cold to the stage and wouldn't have been allowed to drill a hole in it to plant a camera. Maybe the camera was simply in the stand. He did seem particular about where Carrot Top stood and facing the card down.
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charliepatrick
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May 5th, 2017 at 7:02:23 AM permalink
I'm also thinking it was something small, like a built in camera to the frame, then character recognition works out the card - it might not have been possible many years ago as the computing power needs to hide in the frame.

I don't know how someone using a clever gadget is treated on the show - sometimes I've seen P&T draw something which the magician admits is the way it was done. So tables with builtin trapdoors wouldn't fool them, but a newly invented piece of smart technology might.
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