60 Shot, 11 Killed Chicago Xmas Weekend
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/28/us/chicago-murder-rate-gun-deaths.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
Quote: onenickelmiracleThat's alot. The killers will kill themselves off eventually and the problem will go away on its own.
The problem is the gangs keep drawing new members in because for many youth it seems like their only opportunity. They know they may get shot but the chance to make real money overrides it and besides, they all think they are bulletproof. Sadly the numbers show otherwise.
Quote: lilredrooster750 homicides 2016, more than 2 per day. 3,500 people shot. No police department can investigate that many major crimes thoroughly. Chicago is out of control. So Sad.
I suppose you have a point. In 1929, right before the St. Valentines Day Massacre I read that January only had 26 murders on record. Those numbers are almost doubled in recent years on a per month basis. 1929 didn't have the gun control we have today. Of course in 1929 you didn't turn on the T.V. or watch a Movie 24/7 with nothing but killing on it or stories about killing. Honestly, nobody to blame but ourselves. We constantly pay to watch people get killed over and over again. We have got it down to about $1.25 to watch some good old killing on our 60 inch LED Screens right at home. If that isn't good enough... lets watch it on our tablets or right on our cell phones for free on YouTube or just download it for free via some torrent or file sharing program! Hollywood seems to be making Billions off of it. How many parents let all their children watch nothing but Rape, Murder, Stealing and oh don't forget about good old Porn! I know, I know. It isn't my fault! I am just watching a movie about bank robbers and killing police and some innocent bystanders. It is just make believe. It's entertainment! I am not directly or indirectly causing this problem in Chicago or in some third world country that doesn't have running water. I am just sitting here eating popcorn and drinking my sugar free soda watching a movie. Leave me alone!
The numbers are only on record too! How many murders go unsolved or worse yet you don't even know about? If I remember correctly, in the good old USA we have more murders that aren't even known about compared to what is on file. Just look at all those missing persons lists. I think I will go watch some re-runs of Unsolved Mysteries, CSI, Law & Order, and some other show about killing and whatnot! How many of you sickos watch or watched Dexter?? This sick TV show ran for 8 seasons and had 98 episodes! How much money was made or is still made off of this twisted show?? Don't sit there and watch Dexter and complain about all the killings in Chicago and tell me how horrible things are!
Interesting Note:
In February 2008, reruns (edited down to a TV-14 rating... LOL 14 Rating... 14 years old no problem watching this show!) began to air on CBS, although the reruns on CBS ended after one run of the first season. The series has enjoyed mostly positive reviews throughout its run and popularity, including four consecutive Prime time Emmy nominations for Best Drama Series starting in season two.
The series has enjoyed MOSTLY POSITIVE REVIEWS... MOSTLY POSITIVE!!
FOUR CONSECUTIVE PRIME TIME EMMY NOMINATIONS FOR BEST DRAMA SERIES... Go F yourselves CBS and all the fans who watched this and let their 10 year olds watch it every week!!
Quote: monet0412
How many of you sickos watch or watched Dexter?? This sick TV show ran for 8 seasons and had 98 episodes! How much money was made or is still made off of this twisted show?? Don't sit there and watch Dexter and complain about all the killings in Chicago and tell me how horrible things are!
Interesting Note:
In February 2008, reruns (edited down to a TV-14 rating... LOL 14 Rating... 14 years old no problem watching this show!) began to air on CBS, although the reruns on CBS ended after one run of the first season. The series has enjoyed mostly positive reviews throughout its run and popularity, including four consecutive Prime time Emmy nominations for Best Drama Series starting in season two.
The series has enjoyed MOSTLY POSITIVE REVIEWS... MOSTLY POSITIVE!!
FOUR CONSECUTIVE PRIME TIME EMMY NOMINATIONS FOR BEST DRAMA SERIES... Go F yourselves CBS and all the fans who watched this and let their 10 year olds watch it every week!!
Did you lose a bet or a girl to Michael Hall?
Quote: BozDid you lose a bet or a girl to Michael Hall?
Hey... I'm a cynic and a realist.
The cynic says: "Don't bother, it's gonna end bad, anyway"... while the realist says: "Let's face it, the cynic is right."
A cynic is a realist with:
a) no sense of humor
b) a negative outlook on life
c) a compulsive urge to scorn everything
d) reminds everybody far and wide, 24/7 that the world is unfair and/or mean and/or dying, etc.
Your comment made me laugh. I really don't know how my post went so far. I was only going to compare the murder rate from the roaring twenties with the modern numbers. I just got hot sucker when I thought about everyone crying about how horrible things are in the world but just sit around and continue to feed the problem but don't even realize they are helping to cause the problem to begin with! It doesn't matter really. I am just typing. I am just killing more time doing nothing with my life until the one day that my own demise comes along. Don't worry we are all going down soon enough. How many famous people this week alone died from heat attacks or some other health issue?
Truthfully this website is pointless and pure evil for me. I started to come on this forum to look for plays and share information about plays around Vegas but I just keep getting caught up in these meaningless conversations that don't do anything for me but waste my time. I have noticed in the months past that sharing information or finding plays on this site just isn't really going to happen. Romes told me a few weeks ago that the door is right over there and I keep trying to go through it but I keep eating all the bait laying around on these threads. What can I say? I have an addictive personality. It isn't my fault... or is it??
On the other hand... I did see the wizards pick awhile back about the over on Green Bay and Chicago and I was gonna take his advice but I was unable to get to the book in time :{
Early Bird gets the worm so to speak!
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/legal12a-eng.htm
Quote: monet0412I suppose you have a point. In 1929, right before the St. Valentines Day Massacre I read that January only had 26 murders on record. Those numbers are almost doubled in recent years on a per month basis. 1929 didn't have the gun control we have today. Of course in 1929 you didn't turn on the T.V. or watch a Movie 24/7 with nothing but killing on it or stories about killing. Honestly, nobody to blame but ourselves. We constantly pay to watch people get killed over and over again. We have got it down to about $1.25 to watch some good old killing on our 60 inch LED Screens right at home. If that isn't good enough... lets watch it on our tablets or right on our cell phones for free on YouTube or just download it for free via some torrent or file sharing program! Hollywood seems to be making Billions off of it. How many parents let all their children watch nothing but Rape, Murder, Stealing and oh don't forget about good old Porn! I know, I know. It isn't my fault! I am just watching a movie about bank robbers and killing police and some innocent bystanders. It is just make believe. It's entertainment! I am not directly or indirectly causing this problem in Chicago or in some third world country that doesn't have running water. I am just sitting here eating popcorn and drinking my sugar free soda watching a movie. Leave me alone!
The numbers are only on record too! How many murders go unsolved or worse yet you don't even know about? If I remember correctly, in the good old USA we have more murders that aren't even known about compared to what is on file. Just look at all those missing persons lists. I think I will go watch some re-runs of Unsolved Mysteries, CSI, Law & Order, and some other show about killing and whatnot! How many of you sickos watch or watched Dexter?? This sick TV show ran for 8 seasons and had 98 episodes! How much money was made or is still made off of this twisted show?? Don't sit there and watch Dexter and complain about all the killings in Chicago and tell me how horrible things are!
Interesting Note:
In February 2008, reruns (edited down to a TV-14 rating... LOL 14 Rating... 14 years old no problem watching this show!) began to air on CBS, although the reruns on CBS ended after one run of the first season. The series has enjoyed mostly positive reviews throughout its run and popularity, including four consecutive Prime time Emmy nominations for Best Drama Series starting in season two.
The series has enjoyed MOSTLY POSITIVE REVIEWS... MOSTLY POSITIVE!!
FOUR CONSECUTIVE PRIME TIME EMMY NOMINATIONS FOR BEST DRAMA SERIES... Go F yourselves CBS and all the fans who watched this and let their 10 year olds watch it every week!!
I don't think what you wrote was pointless or meaningless. No more so than any kind of speculative writing. Some of it was interesting and thought provoking. I've thought of the media in that way also. But then I also realize that when I was a kid there were all kinds of crime shows and westerns with lots of violence and yet nowhere near the amount of carnage in the real world that is out there today. But then again you could say that the media today is more graphic and more gratuitous. So, it's not really clear to me if that is a main cause or not. There is the glamorization of the gangsta life. But I've seen documentaries indicating that Bonnie and Clyde and John Dillinger were glamorized and were heroes to lots of people back then. So, the issue is unresolved. But worth discussing.
Quote: lilredroosterI don't think what you wrote was pointless or meaningless
I agree with that. I might disagree with monet's point, and I do, but it's still a worthy convo to have. Perhaps it'll turn into garbage, but could be it turns into a discussion that reveals some real gems. And hey, at least this one won't be derailed by gun debate.
Quote: FaceAnd hey, at least this one won't be derailed by gun debate.
Well Chicago has the toughest gun laws in the country and.................................
Sorry had to do it.
Quote: monet0412I suppose you have a point. In 1929, right before the St. Valentines Day Massacre I read that January only had 26 murders on record. Those numbers are almost doubled in recent years on a per month basis. 1929 didn't have the gun control we have today. Of course in 1929 you didn't turn on the T.V. or watch a Movie 24/7 with nothing but killing on it or stories about killing.
Well, I think the population is probably much bigger and that the guns are much more effective.
I've always been in the opposite camp, in that I don't really think media shape our behavior very much. This is, maybe, partially because I'm a free speech zealot and want to believe that. But I still think it's mostly right.
When I was a substitute teacher, often going to poor neighborhoods, I heard several adults blame hip-hop culture for much of the decline that I was witness too.
One thought I had is that a negative cultural influence on kids in a bad situation could be much more powerful. I, and many of my friends, grew up listening to bands like Slayer sing about serial killers, ritual sacrifice, war crimes, etc. But, that was an escape to a landscape that was completely foreign to our experience. None of our parents or neighbors were performing Satanic sacrifices, and our other influences were generally positive.
At one school where I was a sub, 40% of students were in foster care. And I realized that gangs do not exist in a vacuum. Many students had brothers and sisters, family friends and even parents (if they had them at all) who were active gang members. So I think that being steeped in a popular culture that often celebrates such things, is a lot different than a kid from the suburbs listening to Slayer, or even NWA, who to us, were rapping about a wild and almost fictional world, similar to the wild west or something like that.
On the other hand, when someone grows up in that environment and becomes a musician and lyricist, obviously there is a good chance they will write about those subjects. It is more complicated than I'm getting into, but I tend think that these things might feed off each other.
With shows like Dexter (which I admittedly liked) and Hannibal (which I thought was dumb), I tend to think more that they are a reflection of our increasingly violent and fascistic psyche than the other way around. For example, I ain't looking it up, but used to be that only about 25% of Americans believed in torture, but now it's more like half.
If movies, TV shows, or songs had a powerful or meaningful-enough impact on people to kill each other (and all the other bad stuff), then these things would be more wide-spread. Instead, it's mostly in the gang-infested areas where people are shooting at each other. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in other areas....I just don't think you can blame the murders in Detroit or wherever else on music and TV....since it's pretty much only happening in those specific areas.
Gang culture relies so much on showing you're tougher than the next guy it can do little but keep upping the ante on violence, way beyond what most would do without it. It's competitive violence.
Quote: RSIMO.....
If movies, TV shows, or songs had a powerful or meaningful-enough impact on people to kill each other (and all the other bad stuff), then these things would be more wide-spread. Instead, it's mostly in the gang-infested areas where people are shooting at each other. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in other areas....I just don't think you can blame the murders in Detroit or wherever else on music and TV....since it's pretty much only happening in those specific areas.
It's not so much the impact or motivation, the impetus, as it is the normalization of violence, the numbing of empathy, and the remoteness of the individual from their expected interaction with others. IMO, anyway.
Tv, movies, and video games are teachers. You don't have to imagine what it is to kill others. You can experience it a hundred times an hour in rpg's. See it depicted dozens of times per movie. The culture, not just the gang culture, which is a dog whistle, of our America has made a world of You and all the annoyance of putting up with others (in Star Trek they were Red Shirt crewmen) unless there's something you want from them. It's well down the road to being a psychopath. And most of us are standing on that road, desensitized, self-centered, alone...
Well. I'm depressing the hell out of myself even trying this conversation. Move over, monet. I'm going to sideline myself and enjoy the new neighbors screaming at each other in the middle of the night yet again.
Gah.
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/murder+city+chicago+finishes+2016+with+homicides+more+than+york/12628813/story.html
Quote: beachbumbabsIt's not so much the impact or motivation, the impetus, as it is the normalization of violence, the numbing of empathy, and the remoteness of the individual from their expected interaction with others. IMO, anyway.
Tv, movies, and video games are teachers. You don't have to imagine what it is to kill others. You can experience it a hundred times an hour in rpg's. See it depicted dozens of times per movie. The culture, not just the gang culture, which is a dog whistle, of our America has made a world of You and all the annoyance of putting up with others (in Star Trek they were Red Shirt crewmen) unless there's something you want from them. It's well down the road to being a psychopath. And most of us are standing on that road, desensitized, self-centered, alone...
Well. I'm depressing the hell out of myself even trying this conversation. Move over, monet. I'm going to sideline myself and enjoy the new neighbors screaming at each other in the middle of the night yet again.
Gah.
At least someone realizes we, as a people, are in bigger trouble than anyone realizes. Sure... we can all just hide from the inevitable with our expensive toys, daily rituals, movies, ball games or whatever one finds to escape the glare of the blinding light. When the time comes to pass on and it is certain that we will all die individually, how will the individual explain what they did. I just know it's gonna be ugly to explain that I spent a lot of time gambling, movies, video games and any other form of pleasure I could find for my own self. I used to play this game called Civilization V. Steam tracked hours played which I didn't like! Needless to say I logged over 10k hours in five years... pretty sick chubs!
Quote: monet0412At least someone realizes we, as a people, are in bigger trouble than anyone realizes. Sure... we can all just hide from the inevitable with our expensive toys, daily rituals, movies, ball games or whatever one finds to escape the glare of the blinding light. When the time comes to pass on and it is certain that we will all die individually, how will the individual explain what they did. I just know it's gonna be ugly to explain that I spent a lot of time gambling, movies, video games and any other form of pleasure I could find for my own self. I used to play this game called Civilization V. Steam tracked hours played which I didn't like! Needless to say I logged over 10k hours in five years... pretty sick chubs!
10k hours in 5 years? That's the same as a full time job (40 hours/week).
:(
Quote: RS10k hours in 5 years? That's the same as a full time job (40 hours/week).
:(
You think I don't know that. Some days I would play for 18 hours straight and my heart rate would be all goofy. Other days my wife would come home throwing food at me or something. I would tell her... When you first met me you know this is what I do... If I'm not in the Casino for days on end I am playing some meaningless game! A couple days later and she was back to normal. I was hooked pretty good on that game. After all the players started to get bored and not play Multi-Player anymore or run Single Player Challenges it started to fade away. Finally after 5 years I started to get bored with it :). I recently bought Civ VI when it came out but it has too many problems and is easier than V. They will fix it down the road but I think that game is out of my system. I still play Nintendo but for the most part Computer games and Console games are over for me but it was a good 35 years of addiction. I don't want to see my numbers for things like Pac-Man, Jungle Hunt, Tetris, all the Atari Games really. Now when Combat Flight Sims came out I was pretty hooked on things like Janes, F22, F16 Falcon, il 2 sturmovik... etc. etc. Next up was things like Black Hawk Down (Miss that game...good killing fun), Battlefield, Medal of Honor... etc. etc.
Did I say I had a wasted life?? Guilty as charged... You ever see Papillon with Steve McQueen? Pretty good scene where he is dreaming and the judges are finding him guilty and he says: "I didn't kill that pimp"
The judge tells him that he is guilty of a far worse crime than that! And he asks: "Oh yeah... whats that?"
The Judge replies: "A Wasted Life"
Papillon agrees... "Oh that?? Guilty as charged!!"
I bought Civ 5 at launch but didn't like the one tile per unit rule. It seemed too weird for me and the time commitment to "git gud" was too high for me to get into. Lo and behold, Civ 5 complete edition is now like $13 on Steam..... Maybe it's time for "one more turn".
Quote: monet0412Not sure how you skipped Civ IV BTS... by far the best in the series if you love micro and stacks of doom!
Played civ 4 as well. Haven't put in ungodly hours on the game. All I know is every single game of civ I played, Ghandi is a nuclear madman.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-july-4-weekend-shootings-violence-20170705-story.html
Quote: lilredrooster42 people were shot in Chicago in a 12 hour period on July 4 and 5 between 3:30 p.m. and 3:30 a.m.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-july-4-weekend-shootings-violence-20170705-story.html
That is just amazing. Are murders even mentioned on the news there?
Quote: GWAEThat is just amazing. Are murders even mentioned on the news there?
Only if it's a white killing a minority.
Quote: lilredrooster42 people were shot in Chicago in a 12 hour period on July 4 and 5 between 3:30 p.m. and 3:30 a.m.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-july-4-weekend-shootings-violence-20170705-story.html
How many perpetrators were illegal immigrants from Mexico? How many of those were from the six countries Trump banned. I see that Trump sending in the Feds like he promised worked.
Focus, folks on things that are important (not that Obama did anything). Trump did say that he knew people that could solve Chicago's violent crime problem "in a week".
There is a solution for Chicago, but the voters don’t want it.
Meanwhile, once again, the crime rate in NYC is headed for another record low. Same demographics. Better leaders.
Year to Date:
Murder down 21.6%
Rape down 4.8%
Felony assault down 3%
Robbery down 10.4%
Shootings down 15.8%
Shooting victims down 16.7%
Total crimes down 5.8%
What's different in NYC?
Quote: RigondeauxWhat is the solution voters don't want?
What's different in NYC?
They substitute saltpeter for fluoride in the NYC water?
Quote: MrVThey substitute saltpeter for fluoride in the NYC water?
Is that why they talk funny?
Quote: TankoFinal Tally: More Than 100 Shot
There is a solution for Chicago, but the voters don’t want it.
Meanwhile, once again, the crime rate in NYC is headed for another record low. Same demographics. Better leaders.
Year to Date:
Murder down 21.6%
Rape down 4.8%
Felony assault down 3%
Robbery down 10.4%
Shootings down 15.8%
Shooting victims down 16.7%
Total crimes down 5.8%
I assume you are referring to their very strict hand gun laws?
Uhhh, the headline on that cite makes it inexcusably clear that an important condition was specified: "Trump suggests Chicago could solve crime problem 'in a week' if cops got tougher."Quote: boymimboFocus, folks on things that are important (not that Obama did anything). Trump did say that he knew people that could solve Chicago's violent crime problem "in a week".
Source: Chicago tribune
The purple line is the line that you want to pay attention to and represents violent crime in the city. Violent crime was down roughly 50% since 2001 and looks like it has an upswing last year and is looking like it will do it again this year.
Crime is down in NYC because the city continues to get more wealthy and gentrified and the subway service is there to make commuting practical. Chicago does not have that kind of wealth that New York does and people choose to live in safe suburbs rather than in crime-riddled neighborhoods.
Is that an argument for not having handgun laws. Would everyone owning a gun in Chicago reduce crime? I don't think so.
Quote: SanchoPanzaUhhh, the headline on that cite makes it inexcusably clear that an important condition was specified: "Trump suggests Chicago could solve crime problem 'in a week' if cops got tougher."
Yes, exactly. Trump did promise this however.
Quote: Donald Trump, Republican National Convention, Acceptance Speech
"The crime and violence that today afflicts our nation will soon, and I mean very soon, come to an end. Beginning on January 20, of 2017, safety will be restored."
And repeated in his inaugural address:
Quote: the big Nacho
But for too many of our citizens, a different reality exists: Mothers and children trapped in poverty in our inner cities; rusted-out factories scattered like tombstones across the landscape of our nation; an education system, flush with cash, but which leaves our young and beautiful students deprived of knowledge; and the crime and gangs and drugs that have stolen too many lives and robbed our country of so much unrealized potential.
This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.
This is all on Trump to stop. He made the promise. He is responsible for delivering. Just as you right-winged folks jumped on Obama's every act and golf trip, Trump is deserving of the same scrutiny. No excuses.
The president is not responsible for the actions or lack thereof of the Chicago police force.Quote: boymimboYes, exactly. Trump did promise this however. And repeated in his inaugural address:
This is all on Trump to stop. He made the promise. He is responsible for delivering. Just as you right-winged folks jumped on Obama's every act and golf trip, Trump is deserving of the same scrutiny. No excuses.
Quote: SanchoPanzaThe president is not responsible for the actions or lack thereof of the Chicago police force.
He accepted the responsibility in his acceptance speech at the convention.
You know he is only responsible for the stuff that goes right. Everything else is someone else's fault. Usually Obama's.
This didn't happen because of the divisiveness between the various branches of federal government, caused mostly by stonewalling by the GOP congress and senate during his last term. Moreover, it became clear through all of the video shot that the police generally treat a black criminal different than a white criminal, and while there might be valid reasons why this is so (I am not saying it is), it is easy to pull out the race card and attribute all white police officers as being racist which of course creates friction in black communities.
Anyway, I think it's a very complex issue. Truly though money does talk. Growth in cities and gentrification and making housing more expensive changes communities.
I live in a community that's fairly well off and we have fairly bad crime 4 -5 miles north of us that sometimes creeps down here (rarely) and people say that the crime's a-comin. But housing prices are high here and for crime to set in, criminals have to live nearby.
Chicago has enclaves of very inexpensive housing which allows disenfranchised people to congregate, scheme, join gangs, and wield power. Do some heavy policing, convince people of wealth to move into these areas, the push them out.
The other method of course is to provide enough welfare to these people that they won't need to resort to criminal activities. And to remove the opportunities for quick crime (guns), stiff penalties and to provide educational opportunities (good schools, scholarships, etc) and job opportunities to the vulnerable population.
Quote: boymimboReally, part of the reason that 2016 went to Trump was the disenfranchisement of black voters who didn't turn out in the urban centers in Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Philadelphia. This disenfranchisement was partially caused by targeting of Hillary by the Russians but also due I believe to the racial discord that existed after 8 years of a black leader who really didn't do much to give them hope. Moreover, Obama was from Chicago and he (better than Trump) could have used is connections to do something appreciable for crime, not just in Chicago but throughout the nation.
It's interesting because things like this happen in a variety of communities.
I live in an area with a large Amish population, and I was talking to an Amish guy who told me they all voted for Trump, because there was a robocall going around to all of the saying Hillary would take away their religious freedoms.
It's pretty sickening that someone would target a low-information community like that and exploit their religion for votes.
Quote: gamerfreakIt's interesting because things like this happen in a variety of communities.
I live in an area with a large Amish population, and I was talking to an Amish guy who told me they all voted for Trump, because there was a robocall going around to all of the saying Hillary would take away their religious freedoms.
It's pretty sickening that someone would target a low-information community like that and exploit their religion for votes.
And it isn't any different in the communities where Dems own the vote year after year, even as conditions get worse? Face it, they all do it and it isn't changing as long as we are willing to admit there is a segment of the population who is just stupid.....on both sides.
Quote: BozAnd it isn't any different in the communities where Dems own the vote year after year, even as conditions get worse? Face it, they all do it and it isn't changing as long as we are willing to admit there is a segment of the population who is just stupid.....on both sides.
I agree for the most part, not trying to make a dem -vs- republican argument. I hate both parties pretty much equally, which is why I am an independent.
Quote: gamerfreak
I live in an area with a large Amish population, and I was talking to an Amish guy who told me they all voted for Trump, because there was a robocall going around to all of the saying Hillary would take away their religious freedoms.
I don't understand how that is even remotely legal. First of all, it's literally slander, and second of all, it's slander to influence a political election. That should be punishable by prison and heavy fines.
The blacks left the south and headed north to find a better life, and found work in the factories.
Over time, the factories closed, and hope for a better life faded.
Families fractured, with many fathers being MIA and thus unable to provide guidance to their children.
The young sought and found a sense of family in gangs.
The politicians turned a blind eye to black on black crime.
And here we are.
Quote: MrVReality check:
The blacks left the south and headed north to find a better life, and found work in the factories.
Over time, the factories closed, and hope for a better life faded.
Families fractured, with many fathers being MIA and thus unable to provide guidance to their children.
The young sought and found a sense of family in gangs.
The politicians turned a blind eye to black on black crime.
And here we are.
Wait a minute... what about all the non-black demographics that lost their factory jobs? Why didn't their subcultures go down the same road?
EDIT: And why are politicians turning a blind eye to black on black crime? Any politician who could solve that problem would be a shoe-in for two term president. You'd think they'd be scrambling over each other to do something about it.
