SOOPOO
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December 2nd, 2016 at 8:39:26 AM permalink
My first job after residency lasted around 15 years. The physicians did not get sick days, but rather, we trusted each other not to abuse the system. If you were going to be out a long time, I think more than 2 weeks, we had a disability policy. I would guess we averaged around 1/2 a sick day per doctor per year. My second job for 10 years I was a mixture of a county employee and private practitioner. I accumulated around 800 sick hours. I have not used any of them. Over the past 3 years I am now a full time county employee and accumulate no new sick time, just PTO. If you miss a day for illness or vacation it is the same. With the exception of big events (Open heart bypass) no one uses sick time, still way less than one day per doctor per year.

Ok.... My rant......

The city of Buffalo schoolteachers report on employees that use more than EIGHTEEN sick days in a year and label them as chronic offenders. I expected to see the next paragraph to list a dozen or so lazy sots to shame them. Except......... 36.8% of all Buffalo schoolteachers made the list!!!!!!! If you were a hard worker who only called in sick 18 times in a year you were praised........

Rant over......
Hunterhill
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December 2nd, 2016 at 8:47:29 AM permalink
There are alot of lazy people, who like to abuse the system.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
onenickelmiracle
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December 2nd, 2016 at 9:16:58 AM permalink
18 days for school teachers is a lot, considering Summer off. That's about the only way I'd excuse so many days if they had to sit in empty classrooms during the summer.
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wudged
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December 2nd, 2016 at 10:45:04 AM permalink
Not an excuse by any means, but keep in mind all the sick children they have to be around on a continuous basis.
ahiromu
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December 2nd, 2016 at 10:45:08 AM permalink
18 day is ABSURD. Nine months in a school year, these teachers are taking a day off every other week practically. Do you know how much crap I would get if I used a sick day every biweek?

My dad (accountant) got an award for 25 years of absolutely no sick leave used. I feel ashamed to use 8-10/13 a year (very liberal policy).

The one redeeming factor is that potentially sick leave is abused during teacher study days. Like teachers had to be in school for a couple of weeks before it starts, right? If you've been teacher for a decade, I could see how you don't need any time to practice your curriculum.
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beachbumbabs
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December 2nd, 2016 at 11:25:50 AM permalink
I think there has to be a bit more to consider than the bare statistic, though in itself it is staggering.

The demographics of teachers, hopefully not stereotyping, but for consideration :

Majority female, especially grade school to middle school. Generally beginning to teach in early 20s, probably 1/2 have left before getting 20 years in. So younger women, a majority married. But marriage is not as important as it used to be to have a relationship.

Those are the child - bearing years. I don't know, but maternity leave would have to be a part of any sick leave compilation statistic imo. So that in itself skews the numbers. Paternity leave would also, if available in your school system.

Sick leave used to tend a sick child would also be in the accounting. If the teacher depends on child care while working, chances are the sick child is not allowed to attend. It would fall to the parent.

Multiply those factors per child born and raised. Add back in those days needed by the teacher him/herself. We're talking 3 weeks, 3 days over 9 months here, by people who dont set their own schedule. It doesn't seem hard to exceed. And that's assuming the teacher isn't teaching summer classes. It's an annual matrix.

And as someone said above, consider exposure to the virulent strains of contagious disease that run through classrooms and children, especially grade school age, where there's a lot more physical contact with teachers than later years.

I really doubt most of those teachers are abusers. More like living their lives. The sick leave warning regulations, if anything like those imposed on federal workers (Ie govt), are a one-size fits all required matrix with a threshold. Either you are or aren't on the list, no mitigating circumstances.
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Wizard
Administrator
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December 2nd, 2016 at 12:16:36 PM permalink
I think if I ran a business with a lot of employees, I would give them x days off per year, for any purpose. It would be expected of employees to set some days aside for sick day purposes, but I would leave it to their discretion how to do that. I'm sure it would sometimes happen where employees would squander all their days off for pleasure and then end up sick for two weeks. In that case, I might consider letting them go negative or just take time off without pay.

The current system subsidizes sick people at the expense of the healthy. Maybe as a society we should be doing that anyway but I see that more a role of government and not the private sector. Then again, maybe government moving wealth from the healthy to the sick would be done in a less efficient way. I guess I'm not sure where I stand. I do know when I left the federal government after ten years of service I had hundreds of unused sick hours. It made me a little mad because I know lots of other employees lied and used sick time for just taking a day off.
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ams288
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December 2nd, 2016 at 12:24:52 PM permalink
One of my best professors in my Masters program gave us some advice on the last day of class. One of his pieces of advice was this: take advantage of your PTO. Don't be one of those people who never takes time off to try to "impress your boss." He pointed out that we were about to graduate with a Masters of Accounting degree, we will never have trouble finding good employment. Screw them if they don't want you to take a vacation.

I took his advice to heart. My company gives us 9 paid holidays and 25 PTO days per year (sick days or vacation, no differentiation). I use them up every year. I've been here over 5 years, only had 1 sick day. I use the rest mainly for my many Vegas getaways.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
terapined
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December 2nd, 2016 at 12:39:59 PM permalink
I work 37.5 hours a week
Including holidays, I get 247.5 hours paid time off
plus
6 sick days or 48 hours
plus
An option of purchasing an additional 37.5 hours of vacation
so total for me including holidays, sick, vacation and 1 week purchased vacation
Paid 333.00 hours total for paid time off for 1 year
billryan
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December 2nd, 2016 at 12:42:05 PM permalink
Those Buffalo statistics are from five years ago. Things have improved a bit. 25% of the teachers used 15 or more days last year.Not as bad as it was, nor as bad as it seems. Teachers are allowed to use sick days for conferences, and continuing education. Perhaps they should call those personal days.
A fair question is would you want a teacher with a cold or flu teaching your child?
I wouldn't want a surgeon operating on me when he is ill, either.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ThatDonGuy
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December 2nd, 2016 at 5:03:34 PM permalink
The federal government gives 104 sick hours (13 days if you work 8-hour days, although some people like myself work 9 or 10 to get extra days off - in some cases, not by choice) per year, which can be saved up. When the retirement system changed in 1984, a rule that allowed you to count sick leave as days worked towards calculating your pension (it goes up by 0.1% for every 209 hours or so) was removed. The government noticed that a lot of people who were nearing retirement were suddenly getting a lot sicker; they were using up their sick leave as if it was regular annual leave (of which you can't have more than 240 hours saved up at the end of the year; you can earn anywhere from 104 to 208 hours per year depending on how long you have been working for the government).

Recently, they have started allowing saved sick leave to be counted as work again. I am surprised that nobody has challenged this on the grounds that it discriminates against women who get pregnant. (They used to give out awards for reaching certain levels of saved sick leave; I called them "rewards for not getting pregnant.")

In Buffalo, has anyone noticed a correlation between the amount of sick leave used and the number of years teaching?
SOOPOO
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December 3rd, 2016 at 4:32:27 AM permalink
I am not sure, but I believe maternity leave is not sick leave. There are lots of variables, but more than 1 in 3 of them being out more than 18 days is just, to use BBB's word, staggering. Even if it is improved to 1 in 4. I like the system that I have now, that Mike described..... time off is time off... it shouldn't be up to the employer to figure out if you are telling the truth about an illness....
AZDuffman
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December 3rd, 2016 at 6:57:18 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I think if I ran a business with a lot of employees, I would give them x days off per year, for any purpose. It would be expected of employees to set some days aside for sick day purposes, but I would leave it to their discretion how to do that. I'm sure it would sometimes happen where employees would squander all their days off for pleasure and then end up sick for two weeks. In that case, I might consider letting them go negative or just take time off without pay.



I have noticed that the past 15 years or so the system has moved to what you say here. They call it "PTO" not, I have not heard the term "sick day" in official terms since forever. When I got into banking and was for the first time ever working at a place with a hundred or more on my floor they told us they changed to PTO from sick days because they got tired of half the people pretending to be sick to get a day off and the other half coming in sick so as not to waste a sick day they could use for something else. ("I'm not wasting a sick day when I am sick!" We were told use em or lose em, and it was weird being forced to take a day off for no reason when I had been there a month.

This probably comes from how I was raised. My dad could "bank" sick days and always had 100 more in the bank. Came in handy when he broke his arm and needed two months off. Right now they are letting us bank 40 hours, which may come in handy as I may need medical time off next year.

It is not about "impressing your boss." It is about work ethic. It is about knowing when you are out it is a burden to everyone else. Some people have this ethic, some don't. A woman once complained that 15 days a year was not enough. I countered that it was over once a month, and how would she feel if one day a month management said to go home, no pay today, no work. Crickets. My dad who had all the days banked used to tell me about guys who had no time banked, would start burning days in January, and would directly ask "how he did it" not taking time off. Not just him, but a few like him. Going thru his stuff I found he got some kind of perfect attendance award. He also was late once in 25 years, that because the movie "Hoffa" shut down streets in all directions for an hour or more. Work ethic.

As to the maternity leave thing, I don't buy it. Maternity leave is almost always counted separate. Big cities are notorious for teachers abusing sick time. They joke about it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
TomG
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December 3rd, 2016 at 9:45:44 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The current system subsidizes sick people at the expense of the healthy.



Having healthy people subsidize sick people is a good thing and what we should be doing. The real problem is that sick days actually encourage healthy people to become sick.

Quote: Wizard

It made me a little mad because I know lots of other employees lied and used sick time for just taking a day off.



You shouldn't be mad at the others, so much as being mad at yourself for being irrationally healthy.
Rigondeaux
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December 3rd, 2016 at 12:45:53 PM permalink
Quote: ams288

One of my best professors in my Masters program gave us some advice on the last day of class. One of his pieces of advice was this: take advantage of your PTO. Don't be one of those people who never takes time off to try to "impress your boss." He pointed out that we were about to graduate with a Masters of Accounting degree, we will never have trouble finding good employment. Screw them if they don't want you to take a vacation.

I took his advice to heart. My company gives us 9 paid holidays and 25 PTO days per year (sick days or vacation, no differentiation). I use them up every year. I've been here over 5 years, only had 1 sick day. I use the rest mainly for my many Vegas getaways.



That's sort of how I always looked at it. Your paid time off (whatever it is called) is part of your compensation.

At the same time, 18 days out of a school year is a lot. If you think you are significantly more valuable than a substitute teacher, I think you'd have an inclination to come in. Especially if you can get extra pay instead of the time off.

Sounds sort of like a bad system, though we don't know the details. If the sick pay is "use it or lose it" you're putting the worker in a position where they have to chose between forfeiting some of their compensation, and doing their job to the best of their ability.
Konbu
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December 3rd, 2016 at 12:56:33 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

The federal government gives 104 sick hours (13 days if you work 8-hour days, although some people like myself work 9 or 10 to get extra days off - in some cases, not by choice) per year, which can be saved up. ..... The government noticed that a lot of people who were nearing retirement were suddenly getting a lot sicker; they were using up their sick leave as if it was regular annual leave (of which you can't have more than 240 hours saved up at the end of the year; you can earn anywhere from 104 to 208 hours per year depending on how long you have been working for the government).



I just wanted to clarify possible misunderstanding by other readers. Sick level is earned at a fixed rate of 4 hours every 2 weeks. Feds can't earn more sick leave by working longer days like 9 or 10 hour days or by tenure.
My opinion is the same as the Wiz. There should only be one pool of leave and employees are accountable for having sufficient leave balance to cover unexpected sick days as they occur. Sick leave is part of my total benefits package and I shouldn't be told under what condition I can use it.
I CD-ROM.
Rigondeaux
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December 3rd, 2016 at 1:00:56 PM permalink
Here's a scenario. Given that it is Buffalo, a pretty likely one I think.

Teachers are not given a raise for, idk, 7 years. Or they are asked to take a pay cut.

During the negotiations, the city decides that, for whatever reason, they can afford to throw the bone of a ton of sick days.

So, you do your job well. Boss comes to you and says, I'm not going to compensate you with pay, but I am going to compensate you with 18 sick days a year.

I'd use them, and I think that's reasonable.
djatc
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December 3rd, 2016 at 1:10:07 PM permalink
If I accrue sick days I'll probably get the sniffles every time a new Call of Duty comes out
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TomG
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December 3rd, 2016 at 1:42:22 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

If I accrue sick days I'll probably get the sniffles every time a new Call of Duty comes out



Giving people sick days makes them much more likely to be sick. Amazing SOOPOO didn't already know that.
AZDuffman
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December 3rd, 2016 at 1:55:56 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

Here's a scenario. Given that it is Buffalo, a pretty likely one I think.

Teachers are not given a raise for, idk, 7 years. Or they are asked to take a pay cut.

During the negotiations, the city decides that, for whatever reason, they can afford to throw the bone of a ton of sick days.



I'd make it so you start at 1 sick day and every post-season win by the Bills over your career adds one sick day.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
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December 3rd, 2016 at 5:30:24 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

I work 37.5 hours a week
Including holidays, I get 247.5 hours paid time off
plus
6 sick days or 48 hours
plus
An option of purchasing an additional 37.5 hours of vacation
so total for me including holidays, sick, vacation and 1 week purchased vacation
Paid 333.00 hours total for paid time off for 1 year



I didn't know McDonald's was that good
to it's fry cooks. I'm impressed. Just kidding,
I know you work at Golden Corral as a fry
cook.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Boz
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December 3rd, 2016 at 8:23:04 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

If I accrue sick days I'll probably get the sniffles every time a new Call of Duty comes out



You need a new negotiation with your co workers!
coilman
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ontariodealer
ontariodealer
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December 3rd, 2016 at 11:41:29 PM permalink
many, many, many years ago as a young employee I was given this advice from an old vet. "they're not benefits unless you use them".
get second you pig
terapined
terapined
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December 4th, 2016 at 4:48:46 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I didn't know McDonald's was that good
to it's fry cooks. I'm impressed. Just kidding,
I know you work at Golden Corral as a fry
cook.



Why do you choose to insult me in this thread?
Nothing to add to the thread except an attack on me
Pretty weird
Last edited by: terapined on Dec 4, 2016
Boz
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December 4th, 2016 at 5:46:58 PM permalink
Quote: ams288

One of my best professors in my Masters program gave us some advice on the last day of class. One of his pieces of advice was this: take advantage of your PTO. Don't be one of those people who never takes time off to try to "impress your boss." He pointed out that we were about to graduate with a Masters of Accounting degree, we will never have trouble finding good employment. Screw them if they don't want you to take a vacation.

I took his advice to heart. My company gives us 9 paid holidays and 25 PTO days per year (sick days or vacation, no differentiation). I use them up every year. I've been here over 5 years, only had 1 sick day. I use the rest mainly for my many Vegas getaways.



I have no issue with using what you are offered but this professor is everything wrong with higher education today. Odds are he never owned anything business related and is one of these book guys who have no clue how the real business world works. Why would he tell someone to not be one of those people who tries to "impress the boss"? It comes from his views of equality and fairness would be a good guess.

In any company there will those who move up faster, make more money and take advantage of OPPORTUNITY. And in most cases, those are the ones who do the extras, take less time off, don't use sick days and in some cases, don't take maternity leave. Legal and fair or not, this is how the business world works. And the ones who are left behind are always the ones who complain the most.

Put yourself in the place of the business owner (yea I know its tough for many liberals). Who are you going to reward? The guy who is there for you or the person who takes everything you offer but still does their job? And I don't want to hear about discrimination laws and all that other nonsense on the books, they are doing nothing illegal. They are just doing what they are paid for as management, reward the best employees. And if 2 people are equal in performing a job, you are going to reward the one who goes the extra mile. And that isn't changing anytime soon.

Thornton Melon had it right many years ago when he told his professor that he had no clue how the real business world works. Perhaps your guy needs a lesson in the real world as well. Or not, he is probably doing fine collecting his salary while being eccentric and thinking he is changing the world and is one of the good guys. I wonder how many missed opportunities his student lost over the years following his advise? But they found "balance".
beachbumbabs
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December 4th, 2016 at 10:14:11 PM permalink
Goes to work ethic and integrity. Conservative business persons don't have the monopoly on that. A smart worker saves their sick leave for really being sick. A compassionate owner recognizes the effort and compensates them for the balance when they leave.

Too tired to engage further tonight. Peace out, Boz. :)
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
terapined
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December 6th, 2016 at 8:47:36 AM permalink
Ikea expanding parental leave

it will offer its 13,000 salaried and hourly employees in the U.S. up to four months of paid parental leave. Effective Jan. 1, the policy will apply to mothers and fathers who are birth, adoptive or foster parents. Ikea had previously given women giving birth five days of paid leave in addition to six to eight weeks of paid disability leave.

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/ikea-offer-expanded-parental-leave-050226852.html
DRich
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Thanked by
Boz
December 6th, 2016 at 8:56:05 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

Ikea expanding parental leave

it will offer its 13,000 salaried and hourly employees in the U.S. up to four months of paid parental leave. Effective Jan. 1, the policy will apply to mothers and fathers who are birth, adoptive or foster parents. Ikea had previously given women giving birth five days of paid leave in addition to six to eight weeks of paid disability leave.

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/ikea-offer-expanded-parental-leave-050226852.html



Horrible idea. This just encourages people to have children. We should be discouraging it like China does. The less people we have the more natural resources there will be for us.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
ams288
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December 6th, 2016 at 10:20:19 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

I have no issue with using what you are offered but this professor is everything wrong with higher education today. Odds are he never owned anything business related and is one of these book guys who have no clue how the real business world works. Why would he tell someone to not be one of those people who tries to "impress the boss"? It comes from his views of equality and fairness would be a good guess.



RE: the accounting professor being everything wrong with education today: Complete nonsense. He was the head of the Accounting department at the University. Prior to this he and his wife owned a small tax firm (which his wife still worked at while he taught).

What you are failing to miss here, is this was one piece of advice he gave (amongst several others) on the last day of the capstone course of the Masters of Accountacy (MAcc) program. He was dealing with the cream of the crop as far as business students go. He knew we would be able to "impress our bosses" with our skills and knowledge without having to needelessly forgo our earned time off.

Quote:

In any company there will those who move up faster, make more money and take advantage of OPPORTUNITY. And in most cases, those are the ones who do the extras, take less time off, don't use sick days and in some cases, don't take maternity leave. Legal and fair or not, this is how the business world works. And the ones who are left behind are always the ones who complain the most.



Agree with most of this. Has nothing to do with our situation. Again: this advice was given to MAcc students, most of whom had already accepted jobs offers prior to graduation (and this was in 2011, when the job market was a lot worse).

Most of the MAcc students would start out working as staff accountants at public accounting firms for a couple years to get some experience before jumping ship and moving on to another company with better pay and benefits. I think it's actually pretty rare for those who start out at public accounting firms to stick with that same company for more than one or two years. They'd be forced to work 55-60 hour weeks during the busy season and wouldn't even be allowed to use PTO during those months even if they wanted to. There would be no need to try to impress their bosses by not taking some well needed PTO during the slower times of year...

Quote:

Thornton Melon had it right many years ago when he told his professor that he had no clue how the real business world works. Perhaps your guy needs a lesson in the real world as well. Or not, he is probably doing fine collecting his salary while being eccentric and thinking he is changing the world and is one of the good guys.



I don't think you understand the way Universities work. This guy (and all the other accounting professors I had) had plenty of real world experience. At some point in their career they made the decision to get their Ph.D. and teach.

Even the teachers I had who weren't Ph.Ds. all had real world accounting experience prior to teaching, I can't think of one who didn't.

Quote:

I wonder how many missed opportunities his student lost over the years following his advise? But they found "balance".



I'd be willing to guess there were zero missed opportunities because of his advice. Of the 40 or so people in the program, all but 2 or 3 had accepted job offers prior to graduation. And the others got jobs shortly after.

My MAcc classmates and I still have a private Facebook group that we use to keep in touch. Professionally, we are all doing very well as far as I can tell. Most have had two or three jobs and are climbing the career ladder (another piece of advice he gave us that last day: "The best way to get a raise is to quit your job and go get hired for someone else," - one piece of advice I haven't adhered to, but I was one of the rare ones who didn't go the public accounting route.)

I just logged into my LinkedIn account for the first time in ages last night and had three random recruiters trying to get me to leave my job that I've been at for over five years and come join their company. Should I go work for the one who offers me six weeks of PTO a year but secretly doesn't want me to take it?
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
terapined
terapined
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December 6th, 2016 at 10:57:30 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I didn't know McDonald's was that good
to it's fry cooks. I'm impressed. Just kidding,
I know you work at Golden Corral as a fry
cook.



Getting me mixed up with AZduffman.
The local side job guy

I work for a Dow company dealing with road warriors.
I book international business travel from my home office
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