About the Homeless

I just saw a statistic claiming there are 1.5 million homeless people in the U.S. Unbelievable. What do you you think the # will be in 25 years? 10 million? I'm not one to beat up or talk down people having a hard time in life. Many of them have very serious physical and mental problems. But there has to be fair % who are homeless by choice. How did we get here? Because of the recession and a poor economy? Or other reasons?

Crazy, drunk, or drugged, they would have a home if homes were affordable and incomes were better. You would see more homeless if you counted those living with family and people living in tiny houses.

Rural homeless often go uncounted living in state and federal parks or the like.

Some are lacking in coping skills, some are the result of medical bankrupticies or internet scams, some are teh result of arbitrary code enforcement, some are sensible choices when looking at salaries and stress levels in Walmart type jobs. Why sling hamburgers hopelessly when you can sleep all day hopelessly.

I am sick of hearing about the recession and poor economy. The only people the effected were the 1% who couldn't get another job at that rate.

Someone who is homeless either has mental problems and doesn't know they want help or do it by choice. There are so many programs out there to help that they should have no problems getting at least a job at mcd.

Quote: lilredrooster

I just saw a statistic claiming there are 1.5 million homeless people in the U.S. Unbelievable. What do you you think the # will be in 25 years? 10 million? I'm not one to beat up or talk down people having a hard time in life. Many of them have very serious physical and mental problems. But there has to be fair % who are homeless by choice. How did we get here? Because of the recession and a poor economy? Or other reasons?

I blame the internet.

It's virtually impossible to get a place to live if you have a bad credit score, no or spotty rental history, or a lack of demonstrated income. Spend six months on the street and you're basically permanently locked out of human society. The reason I blame the internet is that now, any clown can spend $15 and look you up on some database that may or may not be accurate and use the info to exclude you.

Yeah, there are supposed to be housing anti-discrimination laws, but how can someone living in his car marshal the resources to file a claim? Also, of the "reasons" I mentioned for denying people housing, all are legal except for in a few states (Oregon is one I know of), your credit score can't be considered on a rental application. Of course, that doesn't mean that a landlord can't run your credit and then refuse you for some other "reason."

I seem to remember a study that concluded that about 1 in 5 people are homeless "by choice," as you put it. Of course, that depends on how you define choosing. The fact of the matter is that being homeless is a pretty miserable existence and I doubt that even 1 in 5 of the homeless would prefer their current situation to being able to sleep and eat indoors.

The homeless population will only grow until landlords are forced to be fair in considering rental applications.

What do you mean by fair??? I pay 5850 a month and doubt the building I'm in wants someone with a 475 credit score or just out of prison- I'm willing to pay this much because the building is nice and has great neighbors. I don't want deadbeats or unemployed people just lounging and having to be evicited left and right
Nor do I want drug dealers or hookers living next to me

Quote: Wizardofnothing

What do you mean by fair??? I pay 5850 a month and doubt the building I'm in wants someone with a 475 credit score or just out of prison- I'm willing to pay this much because the building is nice and has great neighbors. I don't want deadbeats or unemployed people just lounging and having to be evicited left and right
Nor do I want drug dealers or hookers living next to me

Somebody with a low credit score isn't necessarily a bad renter; someone with a high credit score isn't necessarily a good renter. And it isn't a simple dichotomy between being surrounded by wonderful wonderful people and being surrounded by drug dealers/hookers/former prison inmates.

And if somebody is unemployed, why does that make that person necessarily a bad neighbor? So he "lounges around all day," as you put it? Isn't that his right? How does that hurt you?

I really think that you should spend that insane $5850 a month on a walled compound with barbed wire and 24-hour-manned machine gun nests. After all, you don't want your inferiors to be breathing your air.

It's all relative.... at one point in my life I was paying 13500 in NYC To each his own Low credit scores mean you either don't pay your bills or overextended yourself for the most part.:::

Quote: lilredrooster

I just saw a statistic claiming

A number compiled how, by whom?

Redefining people as "homeless" is one of the great spectacularly successful marketing gimmicks of our time.

I saw it begin quite suddenly in the late 70's as it was accidentally discovered that marketing what were formerly "transients (hobos/bums)" (depending on the degree of your need or desire to sound "non-judgmental") "alchoholics (drunks)" "mentally-ill (psychotics/lunatics)" "drug addicts (junkies)" garden variety street criminals, general social misfits, and others as "homeless" could be a much more useful term for social program and political movement entrepreneurs. Nothing had changed except the overnight rebranding of them by those pimping them. It sold like disco. Suddenly it was all the rage, stories were whipped out, dramatic "documentaries" were produced, self-appointed "advocates for those who can't speak for themselves" launched themselves into political figures, and money flowed. Lotsa money, in ever increasing amounts. It is a conceptual rebranding that works very well within cities, because of the anonymity that makes it possible to imagine someone is really mostly about... anything you want to invent.

The marketing concept continues to work very well. Very well for those pimping them out, for shaking the money tree, and/or for some "activists" political ends, that is. And along the way also creating some opportunities for some sick individuals to use them for emotional and sometimes other pysical gratification in some more personal ways, as well. Not quite so much at all for any real improvement for people who are mentally ill, or those dying of alcoholism and street drugs, or for having much effect on the whole host of other behaviors some people have always engaged in that incidentally don't tend to lead to those people buying a house on a cul-de-sac.

And it works not so well at all in places that don't have some urban anonymity. Because someone trying to redefine "Joe The Town Drunk" who everybody in the town or county knows has been drunk for thirty years, whose primary occupation has always been stealing stuff, and whose major hobby since he was 14 years old is occasionally punching someone whenever he gets frustrated or setting fire to things when restless, as someone who is now to be called first and foremost a "homeless" victim of "society" would at best be laughed at.

Nothing has changed. They have been there always, everywhere, forever, people who do not function with others, for longer than humans have had written words. In every city in the world. In every nation under every form of political economic and social order. They always will, and politics or economics will not and cannot change that. Individuals can sometimes make changes. Sometimes. Sometimes someone with realistic humility may help, but unfortunately more often people attaching themselves to an ill-conceived cause for their own purposes are actually destructive, even to the point of being willfully oblivious to contributing to their sickness and death.

Who is "homeless" and therefore how many is dependent upon who is doing the defining, and there are significant financial & other incentives for those doing so. The result is often complete bullsheet, and I have personally seen the manufacturing of that bullspit first hand. For about three decades now I have wondered when the "homeless" industry, within which I use to manage a number of different housing & shelter programs, will eventually run into the Pentagon body count problem. That is what occurred as the supposed body counts that were defined as being North Vietnam invaders, that were regularly reported as objective data to show progress from lives and treasure spent "saving" South Vietnam, were tallied up by some independently, and the grand total was found to exceed the total population of every man, woman, child, baby, and water buffalo that ever existed in North Vietnam.

Dead: I appreciate what you're saying but I can't agree that nothing has changed. In the 70s I worked in downtown Washington DC near the White House and would hang out socially in many various sections of NW DC. I had to walk through a park to get to work. I would see the same homeless people every day and there weren't that many of them. I recognized most of them day after day. I would guesstimate that in all of DC there were a few hundred. Now there are thousands of them everywhere. I've lived in the suburbs of DC now for many, many years. It used to be that you would never see the homeless in the suburbs. Now, they're all over the place. Everywhere. Even in upscale Bethesda, MD there are quite a few. I really believe things have changed quite a lot.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Low credit scores mean you either don't pay your bills or overextended yourself for the most part.:::

Completely wrong. Many of us have a low credit score simply because we never buy things on credit. We pay cash and only buy things we can afford. When people like you don't understand that, we have no problem giving our money to someone else. There will always be someone willing to take our money. Which is the reason we have no problems while maintaining our low credit scores.

Okay then, by all means go with that. I'd put more stock in what you directly observe anecdotally as a more reliable picture of what's happening in your particular community than what the 'homeless' industry cranks out.

Quote: lilredrooster

Dead: I appreciate what you're saying but I can't agree that nothing has changed. In the 70s I worked in downtown Washington DC near the White House and would hang out socially in various sections of NW DC. I had to walk through a park to get to work. I would see the same homeless people every day and there weren't that many of them. I recognized most of them day after day. I would guesstimate that in all of DC there were a few hundred. Now there are thousands of them everywhere. I've lived in the suburbs of DC now for many, many years. It used to be that you would never see the homeless in the suburbs. Now, they're all over the place. Everywhere. Even in upscale Bethesda, MD there are quite a few. I really believe things have changed quite a lot.

How do you rent a car? Have a cell phone ? There are things you need a credit card for-

Never once had a problem using a debit card

There are a lot of airports that do not accept debit for car rental. Philadlephia is one of them for the most part

The car rental agencies near the Philadelphia airport thank them very much

I won't continue this because you will have a rebuttal for everything .... bottom line is as a generalization the people with low credit are due to not paying bills and NOT because of no credit unless you are talking about people under 24

Even student loans will raise your credit if you pay in time. If you don't have student loans you either usually come from money or didn't go to school or worked your way trough - a large percentage have loans and if paid on time would establish credit

Quote:

Major Renters. The major rental car companies, including Hertz, Budget, Alamo and Avis, allow customers to rent a car using only a debit card as of 2009. Each company uses different criteria. Hertz runs a credit check, while Budget requires an additional cash deposit, which it refunds after the car is returned.

https://www.google.com/#q=renting+a+car+without+a+credit+card

Looks like Hertz, Budget, Alamo, and Avis all rent cars out of PHL:

https://www.kayak.com/cars/PHL-a1458/2016-11-07/2016-11-10

People are not homeless because of a credit score for chrissakes, that's ludicrous. They may have to rent something less spiffy on no more than a month to month basis, if they're otherwise somewhat responsible or at least not an actively destructive rip-off artist. I've been involved in using many thousands of screening reports for rental housing over a period of more than two decades. Most common rental screening doesn't even use a FICO (the "credit" score); you have to pay extra to get that, it is designed for credit card and other revolving account or installment payment lending, and it isn't all that useful for mid-to-down market month to month or other relatively flexible tenancy. In most localities for the bulk of basic rental housing they are pulling a tenant screening report as one tool to help verify that you actually are who you say, coming from where you say when you say & leaving under the circumstances you say you are, that you do in fact have some credible legal means of paying what you say you're going to, you didn't screw over those who rented to you in the past & force them to spend three months evicting you while you did $30,000 in damage, run a meth lab that forced fifty housing units in the building to be closed, and terrorize the neighborhood with your criminal behavior,

Unlike the deliberately ridiculous ravings of the "new" troll who we are supposed to pretend isn't returning here as a troll, when a credit score is used it is generally for long-term contracts such as a lease that may extend for a year's commitment or for multiple years, which is most commonly used in the upper end of the market. Unless you have the misfortune to live in one of the few localities that is foolish enough to impose so many restrictions that everyone providing any housing is effectively forced into a nearly permanent commitment, vastly increasing the risks and costs. In that case, the option is to go outside the boundaries of that local jurisdiction for the much more plentiful supply of flexible and less expensive housing that will exist there. And one individual in this thread probably provides a fine example of people fabricating identities as they constantly screw with others, most likely exactly who you don't want to rent to if you want to continue to continue operating and have habitable places people will live in, for the same reasons everyone else quite rightly won't want to live on the other side of the drywall from them.

look at the qualifying conditions on the counter when you get there

Quote: Wizardofnothing

bottom line is as a generalization the people with low credit are due to not paying bills and NOT because of no credit unless you are talking about people under 24

The only rebuttal that matters is to say that such a generalization is completely wrong.

Even the pimps, whores, and drug dealers you don't want as neighbors are paying their bills. If they weren't, they wouldn't bother with those jobs.

Quote: TomG

The only rebuttal that matters is to say that such a generalization is completely wrong.

Even the pimps, whores, and drug dealers you don't want as neighbors are paying their bills. If they weren't, they wouldn't bother with those jobs.

Generalizations work if you couldn't care less if you're wrong 5, 10, or 25% of the time. Which is what we have here. You have some reasonable situations/explanations. WoN seems to, and most people, couldn't care less about the 5-25% or whatever amount of times that making assumptions/generalizations makes them dead wrong, as long as most of the time they are right.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

look at the qualifying conditions on the counter when you get there

I'll make sure to book a flight to Philadelphia very soon so I can take you up on this suggestion.

Quote: DrawingDead

People are not homeless because of a credit score for chrissakes, that's ludicrous. They may have to rent something less spiffy on no more than a month to month basis

We are hearing from a person who has obviously not tried to rent any housing in the last couple of decades. According to this person, everyone with a low credit score is a criminal and is running a meth lab and will burn down your apartment building.

Running a person's credit is something that landlords absolutely require these days. Yeah, maybe there's a hole in the ground (without lid) that you can rent in North Dakota that you can rent with a low credit score, but otherwise, forget it.

I just love it when someone with no experience or knowledge of a problem says that because they haven't experienced it, that problem must not exist.

Here is budget at Phl. Looking like you must have a return ticket.... sooooooo. You cannot rent locally with a debit card - then if you have a debit card they are going to run a credit check on you as well....
What say you

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Here is budget at Phl. Looking like you must have a return ticket.... sooooooo. You cannot rent locally with a debit card - then if you have a debit card they are going to run a credit check on you as well....
What say you

Here's the reality.

Almost all companies require a credit card to rent a car. A debit card is not sufficient. The only exception to this is Sixt, who will rent to you with a debit card IF you can show them an airline ticket that shows you will be departing the city at the end of your rental.

Budget has policies that vary from city to city but in some markets, their policy is like that of Sixt; in other markets, you MUST provide a credit card.

Pretty much spot on

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Here is budget at Phl. Looking like you must have a return ticket.... sooooooo. You cannot rent locally with a debit card - then if you have a debit card they are going to run a credit check on you as well....
What say you

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Here's the reality.

Almost all companies require a credit card to rent a car. A debit card is not sufficient. The only exception to this is Sixt, who will rent to you with a debit card IF you can show them an airline ticket that shows you will be departing the city at the end of your rental.

Budget has policies that vary from city to city but in some markets, their policy is like that of Sixt; in other markets, you MUST provide a credit card.

We all contend that our position is right and the other one is wrong. How much should we wager to settle this? I would be willing to fly to Philly to rent a car using only a debit card with a Visa logo if someone can agree to put $10,000 in escrow and I will do the same. I would be willing to make the bet for far less if we could do it in Las Vegas.

-----

I apologize for taking this conversation so far away from the original topic, which is a good one. In one way it does speak to the idea that it is very difficult for any of us to understand how people can live their lives differently, especially when it comes to economic conditions.

You are missing the point.... if you have a return ticket it's one thing but if you don't.they say they won't rent it

Car Rental companies that take Debit (unrestricted with/without credit check): Fox, Payless, Thrifty.
Others will require a return ticket if from an airport location.
Others are market-specific.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

You are missing the point.... if you have a return ticket it's one thing but if you don't.they say they won't rent it

We can settle the bet in Las Vegas where I will not have a return flight. Does $500 sound good or should we go higher? Any day would be fine

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

I just love it when someone with no experience or knowledge of a problem says

Oh. Thank you for informing me of what experience & knowledge I have. I wouldn't have guessed, nor would others who you regularly notify on the experience, backgrounds, businesses and occupations they only mistakenly thought they had, until you so helpfully filled them in. Thousands of units of rental housing were products of my imagination.

I'm sure you're doing that here to be helpful to us and to the site in general that way, as an act of generosity. Yes indeed. So nice that's what you're clearly up to.

Quote: TomG

We all contend that our position is right and the other one is wrong. How much should we wager to settle this? I would be willing to fly to Philly to rent a car using only a debit card with a Visa logo if someone can agree to put $10,000 in escrow and I will do the same. I would be willing to make the bet for far less if we could do it in Las Vegas.

PHL has Alamo, Avis, Budget, Dollar, Enterprise, Hertz, and National on site.

Alamo: YES - required round trip ticket
Avis: No
Budget: Yes
Dollar: No
Enterprise: Yes - Requires round trip ticket
Hertz: No
National: Yes -Requires round trip ticket

Well there you go- much less choice without a credit card

Regarding the homeless. People who are homeless are generally due to mental health issues and economic issues and usually a combination of the two. They don't have the means or reason or stability to work the system and figure something out.

I don't see the homeless population expanding. Unemployment rates are at a low. You can find places to live with bad credit in urban centers.

Quote: boymimbo

....generally due to mental health issues and....

If you define the term VERY broadly, beyond the kind of organic psychosis that might have resulted in hospitalization in the days before that was largely eliminated as a 'reform' measure beyond very short emergency stays. One needs to include a whole lot of other reasons some people just don't play with others and don't stay in 'normal' conventional or even some unconventional long-term housing, even when they are subsidized by third party public & private entities paying for it.

There are a lot of those entities and a wide variety of relevant programs & projects, including many designed for supporting those with specific serious issues. I've been responsible for some of them in the past, for good or ill. And one of the most common and difficult problems they have is keeping their client/residents with chronically unstable lives in them, living indoors without cost to them so the program can get credit for it and keep doing what the funding intends for them to do. Turnover is usually really high, even when it is made to be very nice. But not everything really fits into a medical/psychiatric diagnosis, even if it wouldn't be considered to be consistent with rational self-interest by others.

Or, go with their explanation of their own circumstances: "Bad economy, mon; an' I got just got stranded yestahday an' needs me sum bus fare 'cause..." I think it often beats "Nigerian Prince requires your assistance to relocate fortune..." I believe some guys doing the former may do a lot better cash income than the latter; I know for a fact that at least some who stake out the right place in a reasonably effective way do a lot better than chump change, since some were regularly sociable enough to chat about how their little part-time enterprise of doing that went from day to day. There are always people eager to 'see' what they want to 'know' for their own reasons, and cash money can be harvested from that without a ton of creativity.

I say all that in order to repeat that I don't think continuing to shovel ever increasing amounts of money at 'homelessness' will ever be likely to fix things for anyone concerned.