Doc
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September 9th, 2016 at 9:58:46 AM permalink
The Las Vegas Ecdysiasts
Rigondeaux
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September 9th, 2016 at 10:05:43 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

The city also comes out ahead when IKEA builds a store. But if the government paid for most of their expenses, then Costco would end up screwed and we would end up far worse on both ends.

Why haven't we been spending hundreds of millions in tax money to pay to get UFC and NFR here. If we did that wouldn't we be coming out ahead with all the additional tax revenue

The only way Adelson gets $750 million in government money is if there is corruption and the end result will be the city gets fleeced. Let the public vote on it instead of the legislatures and see what happens. There is a reason Adelson wouldn't want that.

Imagine if there was a special session to vote on stadium funding after many have already lost re-election bids, then see those some of the people who vote in favor of it end up with cushy jobs on the new football team. I could see that happening and it wouldn't even be the most underhanded thing about this



Yeah, I'm shocked anyone here is falling for this BS. I think the idea that sports teams generate any great amount of good jobs has been pretty well debunked. But setting that aside, there's no way that an NFL team ever generates enough tax dollars to make back over $750,000,000. I doubt it's even 1/10th of that.

Particularly if you factor in that there are some sort of, I guess, opportunity cost factors. Joe Schmoe... well, he probably won't be able to afford to attend the games. But Joe Schmoe's boss, spends $500 going to a game and pays taxes on that. If the team didn't exist, he would have spent $500 going to a steakhouse or something and paid taxes on that.

If this model were valid, we could just take tax dollars hand them to rich guys to open businesses infinitely, and then watch as our tax base grows infinitely. But it doesn't work like that. This is just an evil scumbag and a bunch of crooked politicians trying to steal $750 million.

edit: Don't forget, a few years down the road, we get shaken down again, when they threaten to move to another city.
Rigondeaux
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September 9th, 2016 at 10:18:57 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

The hotel tax currently brings in over $600 million a year.With a slight increase, a plan that calls for it giving $30 million a year to fund such a stadium doesn't seem outrageous.
What will a tourists pay per night for this? Under a quarter? With no cost to local residents?
My one condition is Mark Davis loses his hairstyle.



The number I've heard is about a dollar.

Again, this is just trickeration. A tax on our primary revenue source is a tax on us.

Yes, there is some point where an extra dollar or quarter causes someone not to book the room. Otherwise, we could raise the tax a dollar a day forever and Vegas would become the richest city in the world.

If they do come, they have a dollar less to gamble, spend in a restaurant or tip their maid.

No matter how many gimmicks they come up with, taking $750 million of money from tax payers and giving it to Sheldon Adelson is nothing more or less than taking $750 million of money from tax payers and giving it to Sheldon Adelson.
DRich
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September 9th, 2016 at 11:26:31 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

The number I've heard is about a dollar.

Again, this is just trickeration. A tax on our primary revenue source is a tax on us.

Yes, there is some point where an extra dollar or quarter causes someone not to book the room. Otherwise, we could raise the tax a dollar a day forever and Vegas would become the richest city in the world.

If they do come, they have a dollar less to gamble, spend in a restaurant or tip their maid.

No matter how many gimmicks they come up with, taking $750 million of money from tax payers and giving it to Sheldon Adelson is nothing more or less than taking $750 million of money from tax payers and giving it to Sheldon Adelson.



Great post.
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billryan
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September 9th, 2016 at 11:50:29 AM permalink
The top end rooms would be a dollar, a typical room would be much less.
I don't see it as stealing anything from local taxpayers. You are collecting pocket change from tourists.
I also look at it as $25 million a year.
I imagine UNLV will play their games there, and a state of the art stadium will attract a bowl game or two.
You'd get a boxing match or two, a wrestling ppv, perhaps an NCAA regionals and eventually a Final Four,and easily a half dozen concerts per year. It's not like it will only be used ten times a year.
Does Sam Boyd and the dozens of acres of parking surrounding it get sold and enter the tax rolls?
Tearing down the Mack would allow UNLV to expand the campus and build thousands of dorm rooms.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Rigondeaux
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September 9th, 2016 at 12:13:05 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

The top end rooms would be a dollar, a typical room would be much less.
I don't see it as stealing anything from local taxpayers. You are collecting pocket change from tourists.
I also look at it as $25 million a year.
I imagine UNLV will play their games there, and a state of the art stadium will attract a bowl game or two.
You'd get a boxing match or two, a wrestling ppv, perhaps an NCAA regionals and eventually a Final Four,and easily a half dozen concerts per year. It's not like it will only be used ten times a year.
Does Sam Boyd and the dozens of acres of parking surrounding it get sold and enter the tax rolls?
Tearing down the Mack would allow UNLV to expand the campus and build thousands of dorm rooms.



You can see it however you want I guess. In reality, taxing the money that comes into the city is a tax on the city, not some magical fountain of free money. This is just a way of packaging it to deceive people.

Anyway, a pro wrestling match and some extra basketball games are not going to generate $750 million in taxes. And that $750 million is just part of what they plan to boost, as an earlier post pointed out. Never mind, paying for police and other services at and around the games, and the money they will hijack 5 years from now when they threaten to leave.

Other posts have laid this out, and why pro sports teams are atrocious "investments" for municipalities. (I don't think anybody involved at the higher levels of this is dumb enough to actually believe what they are saying. They know they are looting it.)

That is an ocean of money at the city level and it could be used to fund any number of projects that would legitimately benefit the people who live here in ways that might offer a positive ROI through things like crime reduction. Or, we could not take it at all and let it go into our economy. But to take it and give it to Mr. Burns so that he can stick it straight in his pocket is absolutely insane.

If this is such a wildly profitable enterprise, he'll happily fund it himself. It only costs like 5% of his net worth.
billryan
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September 9th, 2016 at 12:47:42 PM permalink
The money is spread over thirty years, so each years events only have to cover $25 million. I read people saying the stadium will only be used eight times a year. I expect it to be used closer to thirty. Unlike most cities, I can see a stadium attracting new tourists. An NFL game will bring a minimum of 15-20,000 tourists for the weekend, a bowl game will attract closer to 50,000. A major boxing event will bring close to that. Moving the rodeo to it will allow many more people to attend the now sold out events. A soccer team is a possibility, although a series of International Friendly Matches is more likely
This isn't the case of taxpayers laying out money to keep an existing team in place. A stadium like this in Vegas will produce new streams of income., and millions of dollars in sales taxes alone. In most places, I don't think the government should get involved in building stadiums, besides road improvements that are needed.
Vegas is a horse of another color.
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RonC
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September 9th, 2016 at 1:03:08 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

The money is spread over thirty years, so each years events only have to cover $25 million. I read people saying the stadium will only be used eight times a year. I expect it to be used closer to thirty. Unlike most cities, I can see a stadium attracting new tourists. An NFL game will bring a minimum of 15-20,000 tourists for the weekend, a bowl game will attract closer to 50,000. A major boxing event will bring close to that. Moving the rodeo to it will allow many more people to attend the now sold out events. A soccer team is a possibility, although a series of International Friendly Matches is more likely
This isn't the case of taxpayers laying out money to keep an existing team in place. A stadium like this in Vegas will produce new streams of income., and millions of dollars in sales taxes alone. In most places, I don't think the government should get involved in building stadiums, besides road improvements that are needed.
Vegas is a horse of another color.



If it will make that much money for the ownership team, why even bother involving the public?

It may generate trips to see specific football games or other events, but those trips will likely replace other trips that would have been made...not necessarily add "new" trips. My wife and I are going to Vegas once a year; we may pick an event to schedule around...but it does not mean that we make an extra trip on top of that. Bowl games are notorious for empty seats and there are way too many of them now. Some things could bring a net gain, but it must not be big enough that business people are confidant that they can profit from owning it without government assistance.

If I am wrong, why not simply build it and as for tax concessions instead of a tax to find it? Surely this hugely profitable venture would work well with a combination of 30 popular events and some lower taxes.

In every city, build it with private money and tax concessions at the most; let the owners, who stand to make a killing, build it.
DRich
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September 9th, 2016 at 1:15:42 PM permalink
"Look at all the people that will come to town to watch football". The problem with that statement is that the hotels are already over 95% occupancy on the weekends. If it brought people during the week when occupancy is only 75% that would make a better argument. Maybe we can move all Raider games to Wednesday nights.
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billryan
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September 9th, 2016 at 2:53:08 PM permalink
Doesn't football season mostly fall into the slowest time of the year in Vegas?
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DRich
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September 9th, 2016 at 3:05:19 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Doesn't football season mostly fall into the slowest time of the year in Vegas?



Yes, but only the two weekends before Christmas are usually the only slow weekends. It is the week days when they really need the business.
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onenickelmiracle
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September 9th, 2016 at 4:05:21 PM permalink
Sometimes cities or counties pay to build casinos, then lease to own them to the casinos.

http://neodfa.org/project/hollywood-gaming/

It is probably a common practice.
Last edited by: onenickelmiracle on Sep 9, 2016
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TomG
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September 9th, 2016 at 4:27:56 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

With no cost to local residents?



We do stay in hotel rooms or pay for family to stay there. But the real cost comes sometime in the upcoming years when the budget is once again unbalanced and we can't look to a hotel tax, so we have to raise property taxes or sales taxes or cut funding for schools or roads or public health and safety. If raising an extra $30 million per year is so easy and painless, why are our schools and social services so bad?

So-called multi-purpose football stadiums in other cities do very little business outside of 10-12 NFL games per year. And we already do have Bowl games and concerts and fights, it wouldn't bring in anything new, it would just change their locations
Rigondeaux
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September 9th, 2016 at 5:36:10 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

If raising an extra $30 million per year is so easy and painless, why are our schools and social services so bad?



Exactly.

There is no way to magically manufacture money that only works when it's given to Sheldon.
beachbumbabs
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September 9th, 2016 at 5:48:32 PM permalink
I think Las Vegas is the last place in America that needs an nfl team. Nba, maybe.and adelson's motives are very suspect based on what you all have said. Public money needed much more elsewhere.
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MrV
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September 9th, 2016 at 6:50:39 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Quote: Wizard

The Raiders are a nomadic team. How many times have they moved when their lease ran out? Besides, LA has the Rams now, who I predict they won't be able to hold onto.

Carson? The only thing Carson is known for is bumper to bumper traffic on the 405. I've lived in the LA area much of my life and never once had reason to actually stop in Carson.



Hehe... Well they do have oil refineries that blow up from time to time...



Yes, as does Las Vegas (Henderson, actually: at least it used to).

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billryan
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September 9th, 2016 at 7:58:40 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

We do stay in hotel rooms or pay for family to stay there. But the real cost comes sometime in the upcoming years when the budget is once again unbalanced and we can't look to a hotel tax, so we have to raise property taxes or sales taxes or cut funding for schools or roads or public health and safety. If raising an extra $30 million per year is so easy and painless, why are our schools and social services so bad?

So-called multi-purpose football stadiums in other cities do very little business outside of 10-12 NFL games per year. And we already do have Bowl games and concerts and fights, it wouldn't bring in anything new, it would just change their locations



Sam Boyd holds 20,000 if that. This will allow many more. Same with the big boxing bouts, A Wrestlemania type event, Stadium Concerts, Final Four. U2 could sell out a three night midweek stand.

Edit-Boyd actually holds almost double that, according to its site. In any event, it's a horrible venue with concessions and bathrooms out of the 70s.
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TomG
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September 10th, 2016 at 1:37:11 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Sam Boyd holds 20,000 if that. This will allow many more. Same with the big boxing bouts, A Wrestlemania type event, Stadium Concerts, Final Four. U2 could sell out a three night midweek stand.



How many other multi-purpose NFL stadiums are getting those sorts of events? Only one I know of is Dallas. If the one in Las Vegas would be able to do all that so well, plenty of other investors would be lining up. Instead they're all running away
billryan
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September 10th, 2016 at 6:30:11 PM permalink
Met Life has many such events. This summer they had a two night Guns and Roses show, and at least four other concerts. They also hold a soccer game or two, and a battle of the bands. Groups like U2, Springsteen, The Stones, and many one or two day festivals play NFL stadiums when they tour.

Since it opened five years ago,Met Life has hosted 44 concerts,a Super Bowl, the annual Electric Daisy Festival, and about a dozen international soccer events. That number is way down from the old stadium as there is a 30,000 seat soccer stadium that was recently built.
The Vegas stadium has the advantage of much better weather. No outdoor concerts in NY in November-March.
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TomG
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September 10th, 2016 at 7:49:40 PM permalink
Sounds like it should be a good investment opportunity. Surprising that Wynn / Fertitta's / MGM don't want a piece of such a great new attraction.
onenickelmiracle
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September 11th, 2016 at 12:06:13 AM permalink
Maybe a city should just pony up to buy a team themselves, pay for a stadium, then reap the rewards. Then of course you imagine hard times for a city, then they either get shorted value having to sell or selling fairly and the team leaves anyways.
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Doc
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September 11th, 2016 at 7:04:21 AM permalink
And here I was thinking that the proposed stadium could be fairly close to the LV Strip, and that my previous post in this thread would have elicited a chuckle, or at least a "Whaaaat?" from someone. Wasted my nerdy efforts, I suppose.
RonC
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September 11th, 2016 at 8:29:57 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Maybe a city should just pony up to buy a team themselves, pay for a stadium, then reap the rewards. Then of course you imagine hard times for a city, then they either get shorted value having to sell or selling fairly and the team leaves anyways.



If stadiums were such a great deal, this would be the thought process of the private sector...while it is interesting to think of a city reaping the rewards of a business, it is hard to believe that a government agency would run an business like, well, a business...

In spite of all that is being said there, how many stadiums have been paid for solely by the team ownership or by them with some tax incentives (no government cash)? Not very darned many...and concerts are not as easy to sell in Vegas as they are in many other cities--plus very few can fill a stadium.
DRich
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September 11th, 2016 at 8:37:34 AM permalink
This Wall Street Journal article regarding stadium financing is pretty interesting.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/cities-rethink-sports-stadium-deals-1452734069
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