Chess: unexplained weakness of d4-d5-e3

I might start playing a bit of chess again, against an old nemesis, the radio shack 1850



That designation, with it set on top level, seems to indicate roughly the skill level the machine is capable of; I assume that is what they meant by it.

I was never very good, now very rusty, and even seem to be permanently dropping off in attainable skill. The last time I took on the 1850 I cranked it down as far as I could and took it out of ‘book’, something that allows me to play it at all as out of practice as I am. I still lost over and over again.

One thing I was doing, since I set the skill level so low, was start off in the way I always prefered when I first learned what I was doing at all as White, with the Queen’s pawn advancing to the 4th rank, then to be supported by the King’s pawn on the 3rd rank assuming Black advanced a pawn to d5. d4-d5-e3.

I learned later that this is considered very weak compared to advancing both pawns to the 4th rank ASAP, with first preferred move being the King’s pawn.

I’m wondering if some of the smarter members here might be able to explain. As far as books on the subject, I have found beginner books [appropriate as they are for me] do not explain why the other is so weak, nor for that matter do intermediate books. Chess books in fact seem to fail to impart much, it’s as if the authors no longer are capable of remembering what it was like to know so little.

In any case, although I haven’t played in months [the below being the first game played lately], I really should be able to beat the 1850 on “level zero without book”, an unknown rating but maybe 1000-1200 as a guess. But it was another loss.

The game can be seen using one of the online aids. I like to use http://www.chess.com/analysis-board-editor

To use it, click on “paste PGN” and paste in the below. Indicate OK to losing previous info. The board will show the last position. You will see VCR-like controls that will allow you to start at the beginning and go through move by move.

Comments welcome!

1.d4 d5
2.e3 Nf6
3.Nc3 Nc6
4.Nf3 e6
5.Bb5 Bb4
6.Bxc6+ bxc6
7.Bd2 O-O
8.O-O Bb7
9.a3 Ba5
10.Na4 Bxd2
11.Qxd2 Ne4
12.Qd3 Qd6
13.Rfe1 Rfb8
14.b4 Qe7
15.Qb3 a5
16.Nc5 Nxc5
17.dxc5 axb4
18.axb4 e5
19.Rxa8 Rxa8
20.Qb2 e4
21.Ne5? f6

white [me] resigns - the Knight is trapped. At my current level of skill, I am doomed with a knight for pawn trade against a computer set at *any* level.

E4 then D4 just stakes claim to the middle of the board. If you moved D4 first, the standard D4 opening would be C4, then bringing you're knight right behind the C pawn. In your game you see why. You're C pawn is first blocked by your knight, and then gets backward the rest of the game. E3 is weak because it doesn't stake claim to the middle. Having said that, I do it all the time when I'm trying to hide a standard D4 opening I'm about to go into.

As a side note, I never understood why people resign in the middle of a game. You'll never have an unbelievable come from behind victory if you fold every time you're down a piece. Plus, it's probably one of the best training techniques, trying to defend and attack with less firepower than your opponent.

I get it for very advanced tournament type play, it's suppose to mess with your opponents head, especially if you can resign before your opponent can figure out why your resigning. Kind of like saying I just made a mistake and I can see it, even if you can't. I'm a better player than you, I just made a mistake. But, again that's all just playing with an opponents head, otherwise I don't see any reason to resign unless it's mate in 3 moves or something like that. Just my opinion.

Back to your game if you move Nd3, your C2 pawn finally gets into the game, and white's pawn structure is solid while blacks pawn structure starts splitting apart. Still very playable, especially if Black is a weak player. IMO>

Since this is a chess thread may I make a comment about chess in general? Magnus Carlsen has had an FIDE rating as high as 2882. No one in history has had a rating higher than this current world champion. But if you look at Bobby Fisher's record, no other player even comes close to Fisher's domination of his competition. For this reason, I think Fisher is the best player of all time.

Quote: odiousgambit

Comments welcome!

1.d4 d5
2.e3 Nf6
3.Nc3 Nc6
4.Nf3 e6
5.Bb5 Bb4
6.Bxc6+ bxc6
7.Bd2 O-O
8.O-O Bb7
9.a3 Ba5
10.Na4 Bxd2
11.Qxd2 Ne4
12.Qd3 Qd6
13.Rfe1 Rfb8
14.b4 Qe7
15.Qb3 a5
16.Nc5 Nxc5
17.dxc5 axb4
18.axb4 e5
19.Rxa8 Rxa8
20.Qb2 e4
21.Ne5? f6

white [me] resigns - the Knight is trapped. At my current level of skill, I am doomed with a knight for pawn trade against a computer set at *any* level.

2. e3 is not so bad -- it's not very ambitious and doesn't press for the advantage, but it's not a bad move.

Your first error was 3. Nc3 -- you need to play Nf3 there.

17 dxc5 was pretty bad, you need to take with your b-pawn.

On move 21 you have a slight edge with Nd4 but you played Ne5 which loses instantly

Download the open source chess engine Stockfish onto your Android/Windows machine. Android play store: Droidfish. It has an analysis mode if you want it to examine your game.

As for your game, 2.e3 only makes sense if you play c3. At any rate, 2.e3 is a very passive move. Look up the "Colle" system. 3. Nc3 is very weak after 2.e3, nothing more to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colle_System

Quote: Wiki

Ignoring Black's responses in order to consider White's moves only, the typical plan is as follows: 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.e3 4.Bd3 5.0-0 6.Re1 7.c3 8.Nbd2 9.e4, with White rearranging his move order appropriately. It is a perfectly solid scheme of development, but, inflexibly applied, it cannot offer more than equality against a vigorous Black response.

Idk proper chess terminology but if I play as white I usually try to bring my bishop to the right of my king out and sacrifice it attacking the pawn to the left of the opponents king (left from his point of view) then wing it from there. Then he can't castle and I can put him in check a few times advancing some other pieces out.

thanks for all the comments, I'll respond to each over time

Quote: JyBrd0403

E4 then D4 just stakes claim to the middle of the board. If you moved D4 first, the standard D4 opening would be C4, then bringing you're knight right behind the C pawn. In your game you see why. You're C pawn is first blocked by your knight, and then gets backward the rest of the game. E3 is weak because it doesn't stake claim to the middle.

this thing of 'not fighting for the middle' has been with me from the beginning, as a kid I used to only advance the first pawn or two no further than the 3rd rank LOL.

I still don't fully get it at the gut level [that doesn't mean I disagree], since the pawn on the E file usually has to be protected by a combination of pieces that don't include another pawn.

I'll ponder what you wrote

Quote:

As a side note, I never understood why people resign in the middle of a game.

I absolutely agree when playing a human. It can be his turn to make the mistake. Furthermore, somebody at my level needs plenty of experience in the end game.

It's too demoralizing playing a computer, to just get a pawn behind is fatal and hopeless[for me]

Quote:

Back to your game if you move Nd3, your C2 pawn finally gets into the game, and white's pawn structure is solid while blacks pawn structure starts splitting apart. Still very playable, especially if Black is a weak player. IMO>

yes, without the mistake I was still in the game

Quote: Greasyjohn

No one in history has had a rating higher than this current world champion.

I don't know enough about it, but it occurs to me that there might be some 'grade inflation' ... the current champ being up against other very highly rated players ...

Quote: odiousgambit

It occurs to me that I did not answer your original question.

In general, the opening is focused on development and pawn structure. Your Nc3 blocks the pawn at c2 which needs to be moved to protect key central squares and prepare for later breaks in the center. Meanwhile Nc3 allows a strong pin with Bb4. The only point of Nc3 is to prepare the pawn push e4. Positioning that Knight at d2 does the same thing, while not allowing the pin and allowing the c pawn to move to either c3 or c4.

Meanwhile the pawn at e3 blocks development of the dark squared Bc1 so it must be moved as quickly as possible, or else the bishop at c1 must be developed to the b2 square, via the pawn push b3. But with your N at c3, developing your dark squared bishop to b2 is especially weak as it creates huge queen-side holes.

Here are the first few moves of the analysis by Stockfish 5 (rated over 3200, about 400 points higher than Carlsen) from after 3. Nc3 -- it shows that the computer considers the position to have a 0.14 pawn advantage for black at depth 28, in other words, that it considers black already to be ahead in the game. The move it likes for black is 3. c7c5.

info depth 28 seldepth 36 multipv 1 score cp 14 nodes 261733384 nps 4605873 tbhits 0 time 56826 pv c7c5 g1f3 c8g4 f1e2 e7e6 e1g1

In other words, the combination of Nc3 and e3 creates a very weak opening position for white, where he has given up every bit of his opening advantage after 3 moves.

I'm not that strong of a player -- my rating is just over 2100. I am sure there are those here who are rated far higher. Maybe they can comment.

Quote: sodawater

2. e3 is not so bad -- it's not very ambitious and doesn't press for the advantage, but it's not a bad move.

I dunno, I get an instant comfort level that is often misplaced - going on to lose

Quote:

Your first error was 3. Nc3 -- you need to play Nf3 there.

taking note

Quote:

17 dxc5 was pretty bad, you need to take with your b-pawn.

I know my opponent well LOL, but it doesnt seem to do me much good. The 1850 was threatening to use the B column to launch an attack by piling up its rooks. Whoever programmed it likes that move, so it might not be obvious to someone else, but I was on alert. I had moved my Queen to that file, plus I was generally loathe to leave a clear B path. I don't doubt you are correct.

Controlling the centre is an important part of most chess strategies. e3 provides defense to a pawn that doesn't need it, doesn't attack the centre, and blocks the black bishop.

Want to practice aggressively controlling the centre? Try the English opening: c4

Quote: teliot

As for your game, 2.e3 only makes sense if you play c3. At any rate, 2.e3 is a very passive move. Look up the "Colle" system. 3. Nc3 is very weak after 2.e3, nothing more to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colle_System

looks like the wikipedia entries on chess are pretty extensive.

I think I will just abandon 2. e3 ... 1. d4, for that matter

Quote: rudeboyoi

Idk proper chess terminology but if I play as white I usually try to bring my bishop to the right of my king out and sacrifice it attacking the pawn to the left of the opponents king (left from his point of view) then wing it from there. Then he can't castle and I can put him in check a few times advancing some other pieces out.

you can show us what you mean with the chess.com analyzer. Simply start moving the pieces, and the correct notation will appear in the box

Quote: odiousgambit

I think I will just abandon 2. e3 ... 1. d4, for that matter

If you want a nice opening that is strong and safe and good to use against computers, consider the "Kings Indian Attack." I taught the basic formation to my 5 year old son. He could make the first 10 or so moves like a Grandmaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Indian_Attack

Quote: Wiki

The KIA is considered a solid opening choice for White, although less ambitious than many more popular openings. Though rarely used at the highest levels except to avoid certain pet lines, it is extremely popular at the club level, because it is easier to learn than other openings that require memorising specific move orders to avoid bad positions.

Look at the diagram on the right. That's the basic position you are aiming for.

Quote: teliot

It occurs to me that I did not answer your original question.

thanks for the help.

don't get your hopes up too high. I will be playing a bit of chess and it might be interesting to post something once in a while like this.

Now, if I was 50 years younger, I'd have loved to have had help from a 2100-rated player with the desire to do so! [especially with your ability to articulate what you mean - nobody without that could ever communicate to gamblers and casino operators with your finesse !]

Quote: odiousgambit

you can show us what you mean with the chess.com analyzer. Simply start moving the pieces, and the correct notation will appear in the box

Its like the opening where you try to win the game in 4 moves. Most people are competent enough to defend against that but you attack with the bishop anyways and they get thrown into a game they're not familiar with.

Quote: rudeboyoi

Its like the opening where you try to win the game in 4 moves. Most people are competent enough to defend against that but you attack with the bishop anyways and they get thrown into a game they're not familiar with.

somebody on my level is vulnerable

>Its like the opening where you try to win the game in 4 moves

I think you are referring to the scholar's mate, sometimes incorrectly called the fool's mate. You don't want to play at yahoo chess without brushing up on it.

1. e4 e5
2. Qh5 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nf6??
4. Qxf7#

even if you avoid mate [or losing a pawn trying], the panic at having the early Queen play can be very real for a beginner - never getting to take any advantage of what is actually bad play [edits]

Quote: odiousgambit

somebody on my level is vulnerable

>Its like the opening where you try to win the game in 4 moves

I think you are referring to the scholar's mate, sometimes incorrectly called the fool's mate. You don't want to play at yahoo chess without brushing up on it.

1. e4 e5
2. Qh5 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nf6??
4. Qxf7#

even if you avoid mate [or losing a pawn trying], the panic at having the early Queen play can be very real for a beginner - never getting to take any advantage of what is actually bad play [edits]

You don't bring your queen out until you can check his king with it. The goal is to force him to take your bishop with his king.

Quote: odiousgambit

thanks for all the comments, I'll respond to each over time



this thing of 'not fighting for the middle' has been with me from the beginning, as a kid I used to only advance the first pawn or two no further than the 3rd rank LOL.

I still don't fully get it at the gut level [that doesn't mean I disagree], since the pawn on the E file usually has to be protected by a combination of pieces that don't include another pawn.

I'll ponder what you wrote




I absolutely agree when playing a human. It can be his turn to make the mistake. Furthermore, somebody at my level needs plenty of experience in the end game.

It's too demoralizing playing a computer, to just get a pawn behind is fatal and hopeless[for me]



yes, without the mistake I was still in the game

Nd3 I meant as your next move after the game ended. 22. Nd3 exd3 23. cxd3 You've straightened out your pawn structure, which you can lock in with d3-d4, Black's pawns are split apart and he's got doubled pawns. Down a Knight, but still playable. Take the Queens and the Rooks off the board for both Black and White, and you can see where a draw is possible right away.

The computer is programmed to make mistakes, at the low levels it chooses what it considers the,let's say, 6th or 7th best choice of moves. That's not really a big deal for you in the beginning and middle games, but at the end game your opponent's going to be making the 6th or 7th best choices. So, you can still wait for your opponent to make his mistakes.

Controlling the middle...hmmm... try to imagine (or set it up on a board) playing chess without your e and d pawns. Then try to imagine playing with the e and d pawns, but without the a and b pawns. Which would you prefer? You can really see how much more important the middle is there. If you don't have an e or d pawns, do you just play on the sides or do you try to get rooks on the d and e files? You can see you just can't give up the whole middle of the board.

Quote: JyBrd0403

The computer is programmed to make mistakes, at the low levels it chooses what it considers the,let's say, 6th or 7th best choice of moves. That's not really a big deal for you in the beginning and middle games, but at the end game your opponent's going to be making the 6th or 7th best choices. So, you can still wait for your opponent to make his mistakes.

I think you are channeling in your own abilities - but I will say it is the end game at low levels that is beatable in this 1983 product. The program often accepts offers to trade even at lower levels, and the simplification to the human player helps. The 'mistake' you see might be a King moving laterally when a Pawn should be advancing. Ideally, speaking for myself anyway, if you get into the endgame even strength, or maybe a pawn behind if it is late in the game, you have a chance... but not with allowing the 1850 a passed pawn and the goal line in sight.

Wow. A chess thread at the Wizard's gambling site. I didn't expect to see this day.

I'm a very active tournament chess player. I usually play in seven or eight tournaments each year, about one every couple of months. My next tournament happens to be next weekend up in Agoura Hills, CA.

I own about 567 chess books. I love studying chess. I often study more than I play.

I'm an A player, hoping to become an Expert someday. My USCF rating is 1857. (Oh, and when teliot says he's "not that strong of a player... my rating is just over 2100", I find myself scrunching my eyebrows. 2100 is a VERY strong player, 100 points short of the Master title.)

I maintain an online chess page, but in all honestly most of the content is old... I haven't added anything new in quite awhile. Still, if you haven't seen it, there's some interesting tidbits there.

I'm a former administrator at both FICS and US Chesslive. I also take part in the forums at chess.com.

So with all of that, you can still take the following analysis with a grain of salt.

1.d4 d5 2.e3 Nf6 3.Nc3

Yes, 3.c4 would be more common here. Nc3 is not quite as strong, since it blocks the path of your c4 pawn. Alternative moves, recommended by Stockfish, are 3.Nf3, 3.c4, 3.Be2 and even 3.Nd2

Nc6 4.Nf3 e6 5.Bb5 Bb4 6.Bxc6+

The first inaccuracy. There is no reason to take the knight. Bishops are worth a tad more than knights and giving it up voluntarily for no other compensation is a mistake.

Prior to this move White had the smallest of advantages, but after this move Black now has a slight advantage.

6...bxc6 7.Bd2

7.Ne5 was slightly stronger, attacking the c6 pawn.

O-O 8.O-O Bb7 9.a3

9.Na4, eyeing the hole on c5, 9.Qe2 (getting the Queen off the back rank and connecting the rooks, and again 9.Ne5 were all a bit stronger.

9...Ba5

(This move, by Black, gives White an edge again. Best was Bd6.)

10.Na4 Bxd2 11.Qxd2 Ne4 12.Qd3 Qd6 13.Rfe1 Rfb8 14.b4

Excellent.

Qe7 15.Qb3

The Queen was on a nicer post on d3. For one, it prevents Black from activating his Bishop with Ba6.

15...a5 16.Nc5

Excellent.

16...Nxc5 17.dxc5

No, no, no. As mentioned before, this is a mistake. There's a rule of thumb that you should always capture towards the center. It's true here. The d4 pawn is a valuable pawn and it prevents Black from playing e5. 17.bxc5 would have been much, much stronger. White would have a small edge after this move. After 17.dxc5, the game is even again.

17...axb4 18.axb4 e5 19.Rxa8

No. This gives Black control of the a-file. Ideally, you want him to capture you and then when you recapture with your rook, you now control the a-file.

Rxa8 20.Qb2 e4 21.Ne5?

Yes, a blunder as you already know. The knight was screaming for you to move it the d4 square, where it controls many squares and can't be attacked. (Black has a light-squared bishop.) As you saw, the knight is now lost since after Ng4 Black responds with h5 and now the knight has no squares.

f6 0-1

You didn't play badly, other than dropping your knight at the end. Several of your moves were second and third best, but that happens to all of us, all the time.

Thanks for sharing your game.

Quote: EdCollins

My next tournament happens to be next weekend up in Agoura Hills, CA.

I am in Santa Barbara, about an hour away, and there is nothing chess-like happening here. Too bad. Do you ever make it to the Ventura club?

Quote:

My USCF rating is 1857. (Oh, and when teliot says he's "not that strong of a player... my rating is just over 2100", I find myself scrunching my eyebrows. 2100 is a VERY strong player, 100 points short of the Master title.)

Others may not know that 1857 is a very strong rating. I think no matter your skill, chess is a humbling game. I recall one time playing GM Boris Men and I played a known line down to about move 15. After that it got really sharp and I though I might even be winning. I offered him a draw, which he declined. About 3 moves later he sacrificed his Queen for 3 or 4 passed pawns that were unstoppable. It was a forced win for him when I offered the draw. IM's and up think of guys like me as total fish.

Quote:

I'm a former administrator at both FICS and US Chesslive. I also take part in the forums at chess.com.

I am on FICS all the time, and I run the robot chess engine "meru" there. For me, the best thing going in chess right now is TCEC (tcec.chessdom.com) -- I am a big fan of the engine matches. Watching two 3200+ rated chess engines fight it out while drinking a tall glass of red wine over ice and chatting with some of the most brilliant players and programmers on the planet is my idea of fun.

Ed, your name has always been very familiar to me, now I know why.

Quote: odiousgambit

I think you are channeling in your own abilities - but I will say it is the end game at low levels that is beatable in this 1983 product. The program often accepts offers to trade even at lower levels, and the simplification to the human player helps. The 'mistake' you see might be a King moving laterally when a Pawn should be advancing. Ideally, speaking for myself anyway, if you get into the endgame even strength, or maybe a pawn behind if it is late in the game, you have a chance... but not with allowing the 1850 a passed pawn and the goal line in sight.

I played the game out on the computer against a weak (1500) opponent. I can post the PGN if you think it would help to see that position played to a win. I played pretty sloppy (it's been a while), I'm sure one of the other guys here can make a prettier mate against a weak player.

Even if your skill level won't allow you to win here, the game itself was far from over. Plenty of mistakes left for the computer and the player to make. But, that's just a pet peeve of mine. For your game, though, you might want to start memorizing a lot of opening lines. Try to give yourself a favorable position for the middle game, and then don't make a mistake, or it's over :)


Ed, do they publish a list of where the tournaments are going to be held on the Internet somewhere? Somewhere you can follow the results for top players etc.?

Quote: JyBrd0403

Do they publish a list of where the tournaments are going to be held on the Internet somewhere? Somewhere you can follow the results for top players etc.?

US tournament list:
http://www.uschess.org/tlas/upcoming.php

Everything:
http://www.chessdom.com/

Quote: JyBrd0403

Ed, do they publish a list of where the tournaments are going to be held on the Internet somewhere? Somewhere you can follow the results for top players etc.?

Yes, most certainly. One place is the United States Chess Federation's website.

After clicking CLOSE to close that stupid initial popup ad, click on Clubs & Tournaments. You can then click on Upcoming Tournaments and then select the state you are interested in to see upcoming tournaments in that area.

If you wish to see the latest results of a certain player, click on Players & Ratings in the left column. Then click Player & Ratings Lookup and enter their name as shown in the example.

One screen earlier you could also have clicked on Top Player Lists, to see a list of top players in several different categories.

Chessbase.com is a great source of information for news and tournament results for the top tournaments that are held not only here in the United States but all over the world.

Susan Polgar's site is also a good source of news and tournament information.

Also, Mark Crowther's wonderful site, The Week in Chess should be mentioned as another good source of chess information and data. I visit this site regularly, if only to download the free database files of all of these recent games of master and grandmasters, to add them to my database. (Like many tournament players, I maintain a database of several million master games. When studying and researching and learning about a certain opening, for example, I can pull up tens of thousands of master games that used that opening, to see how to play it, get a feel for it, etc.)

Quote: teliot

US tournament list: http://www.uschess.org/tlas/upcoming.php

Excellent. That's a few clicks faster than what I listed.

Quote: EdCollins

Excellent. That's a few clicks faster than what I listed.

Ed, this tourney?

Mar. 20-22 or 21-22 (note change of dates) 22nd annual Western Class Championships.

Good luck. Report back.

Teliot, and Ed thanks for the links. I'll be sure to check them out. I'd like to start following the players and tournaments. Any names or particular tournaments I should be aware of?

Quote: teliot

Good luck. Report back.

Yep, that's the one. Thanks. Ok, I'll report back here.

There are no easy games at my level. I'll be happy just to win a couple of games. I'm serious. I haven't been playing or studying nearly as much as I should. I'm rusty and out of practice.

Quote: EdCollins

Wow. A chess thread at the Wizard's gambling site. I didn't expect to see this day.

Stay tuned, occasionally there is something. With chess, there is the variance problem too. Only this 'variance' is my little joke about the difference in talent that always exists.

Quote:

I'm a very active tournament chess player... rating is 1857....teliot ... 2100

I rest my case LOL. When I played live against others online eons ago [odiousgambit was my handle], I would toy with achieving 1500 rating - however accurate that really is done like that I don't know. But that was then, I'd be lucky to obtain 1200 now. It's actually a little disturbing to deal with how poorly I am playing now.

I find it quite interesting that often we don't know how it is that we are playing better - like a muscle memory thing, only not involving muscles. This can be true of a lot of things, even learning to catch fish by golly. But the way you guys analyze, I'm impressed.

[edit]

Quote:

So with all of that, you can still take the following analysis with a grain of salt.

thanks, will look at it for sure. Wow, some "excellent" comments. Sir, you may analyze my moves anytime!

Chess is fun however it's hard to find a good match up with enough people, either the person sucks and you get bored playing them, or they are far superior and it's impossible to win, then they get bored. You can play on the internet, but that's not as fun, especially with strangers.

Has anyone here ever played the parks in places like New York parks for money?

Quote: JyBrd0403

I played the game out on the computer against a weak (1500) opponent. I can post the PGN if you think it would help to see that position played to a win

Please do, it wasn't always so easy to look at it in days of yore. Now we can show and tell and was hoping there would be a bit of that in this thread.

Quote:

For your game, though, you might want to start memorizing a lot of opening lines.

Now you have exposed another weakness LOL! Memorizing book past the first couple of moves is a lost cause with me.


Ed, do they publish a list of where the tournaments are going to be held on the Internet somewhere? Somewhere you can follow the results for top players etc.?

Quote: AxelWolf

the person sucks and you get bored playing them

or they will quit playing you while declining to explore suggestions to even it up, such as taking away one of the better player's knights or whatever

Quote: odiousgambit

Please do, it wasn't always so easy to look at it in days of yore. Now we can show and tell and was hoping there would be a bit of that in this thread.

As I said it's pretty sloppy, I'll play it a few (hundred) more times. I like playing positions like that. This game the computer made a couple of big mistakes and that was that. I also played it against tougher competion (1800) and got crushed. But, that's why I would play those positions out, especially against lower level opponents, I guarantee they will make mistakes for you, so you can save the game.

1. d4 d5 2. e3 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. Nf3 e6 5. Bb5 Bb4 6. Bxc6+ bxc6 7. Bd2 O-O
8. O-O Bb7 9. a3 Ba5 10. Na4 Bxd2 11. Qxd2 Ne4 12. Qd3 Qd6 13. Rfe1 Rfb8 14.
b4 Qe7 15. Qb3 a5 16. Nc5 Nxc5 17. dxc5 axb4 18. axb4 e5 19. Rxa8 Rxa8 20.
Qb2 e4 21. Ne5 f6 22. Nd3 exd3 23. cxd3 Ba6 24. d4 Bc4 25. f3 Ra2 26. Qc3 h6
27. e4 Qf7 28. exd5 Qg6 29. g3 Rc2 30. Qe3 Kh7 31. d6 cxd6 32. cxd6 Rb2 33.
d7 Qh5 34. Qe4+ f5 35. Qh4 Qxh4 36. gxh4 Bd5 37. d8=Q Rd2 38. Rf1 f4 39. Rf2
Rd1+ 40. Kg2 Rd3 41. b5 h5 42. b6 Ra3 43. b7 Rb3 44. b8=Q Rxb8 45. Qxb8 Kg6
46. Kh3 Kf6 47. Qe5+ Kf7 48. Re2 Bb3 49. Qe8+ Kf6 50. Qxh5 Bc4 51. Re5 Be6+
52. Kg2 Ke7 53. Qg5+ Kd6 54. Qd8+ Bd7 55. Qf8+ Kc7 56. Qxg7 Kd6 57. Re7 Be6
58. Qf6 Kd5 59. Qxe6+ Kxd4 60. Rd7+ Kc5 61. Qe5+ Kb4 62. Rd4+ Kc3 63. Rd1+
Kb4 64. Qd4+ Kb5 65. Rb1+ Ka6 66. Qb6# *

That's the way the game copied to my computer, so I left it like that so you can cut and paste it.

Axel, I used to play with some guys on the sidewalk on Canal Street in New Orleans. One of the guys sold souvenirs there. They'd set up a table on the sidewalk until the cops would make them take it down, then we would play on top of one of the guys parked car there for a couple days then set the table back up on the sidewalk. LOL You'd be surprised how good some of those guys are. Very aggressive prison type chess, but very hard to defend. Lots of trash talking and stuff which was a lot of fun if you've never played chess like that before. Every once in a while a GM would be in town and play one of the street guys, that set up down the road, or at Jackson Square, for $5 or whatever. They'd school those guys and just dump the game at the end and give the guy $5. But, there'd be a big crowd gathered on the sidewalk watching and saying you know who that is playing. Yeah, New Orleans was a lot of fun.

Quote: JyBrd0403

That's the way the game copied to my computer, so I left it like that so you can cut and paste it.

thanks

I wondered if I would have to straighten it out into one long column, but no problem. Iin case anyone else is wondering, the analyzer I put in the first post handles it as is just fine

I wasn't impressed with your 1500-rated opponent allowing you to pass a pawn. Let's put a question mark at move 28:

28.exd5 Qg6?

at move 28 my 1850 at level one playing black plays cxd5 instead

I also see no immediate problem with having the queen or bishop take the offered pawn

the 1850 at level 1 wants white to have the rook claim the E file as a response to any of those moves, so if any of the three is not the best move it is not on the order of a blunder like getting your knight trapped LOL. Is there something going on to make your opponent waste a move? or is there strategy going on with the move made that actually makes it a good move that does not deserve the question mark?

Quote: odiousgambit

thanks

I wondered if I would have to straighten it out into one long column, but no problem. Iin case anyone else is wondering, the analyzer I put in the first post handles it as is just fine

I wasn't impressed with your 1500-rated opponent allowing you to pass a pawn. Let's put a question mark at move 28:

28.exd5 Qg6?

at move 28 my 1850 at level one playing black plays cxd5 instead

I also see no immediate problem with having the queen or bishop take the offered pawn

the 1850 at level 1 wants white to have the rook claim the E file as a response to any of those moves, so if any of the three is not the best move it is not on the order of a blunder like getting your knight trapped LOL. Is there something going on to make your opponent waste a move? or is there strategy going on with the move made that actually makes it a good move that does not deserve the question mark?

Yeah, the computer should have taken the pawn, and it shouldn't have tucked his King away. 2 big mistakes. As to why it would move Qg6, take a look at Qxg2. Lower level players think they have the game wrapped up right there, they don't think the opponent will see it. But, that was my point, lower level players will make those kind of mistakes for you. That's the way the game played out at 1500.

Another good training exercise IMO would be to try playing the game out as Black with the advantage. You'll see how difficult it is to turn a winning position into a win. Especially against tougher opponents, make a mistake while up a piece or two and you'll lose the advantage quick.

Quote: JyBrd0403

Another good training exercise IMO would be to try playing the game out as Black with the advantage

I might do that. Stay tuned

I wouldn't rate that program at 1500 - that might mean I tend to under-rate, don't have much to go by. But if the radio shack machine is 1850 at top level, then that is not 1500 play.

As for a game where I played a little better, check this one out against the 1850 at level one, I am white. You can skip to turn 12 if you want. I am getting a little less rusty and thought I might win this one. But at level one even, the 1850 has too many tricks up its sleeve for me to handle; I had a big smile at move 23 until Black showed me who was boss. I had to admire what it did. That is what I would call 1500 or better play.

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nf6
3.Nc3 Nc6
4.Be2 Bc5
5.O-O O-O
6.b3 d5
7.exd5 Nxd5
8.Nxd5 Qxd5
9.c4 Qe4
10.Bb2 Nd4
11.Nxd4 exd4
12.Bf3 Qf4
13.g3 Qe5
14.Re1 Qd6
15.Qc2 d3
16.Qc3 Qg6
17.Be4 Qg4
18.Bxd3 Be6
19.Be4 c6
20.Qe5 Bb6
21.h3 f6
22.hxg4 fxe5
23.Bxe5 Bxf2+
24.Kg2 Bxe1
25.Rxe1 Bxg4
26.Bf4 Rae8
27.d3 Kf7
28.Kf2 h5
29.Re3 Bd1
30.Bf3 Rxe3
31.Bxe3 Ke6
32.Bf4 Bxf3
33.Kxf3 g5

white resigns

teliot, in reply to your question in the other thread, my upcoming tournament is this NEXT weekend.

I'll reply a week from tomorrow. (I'll be getting home late Sunday night, so it will be easier for me to report back sometime on Monday.)

Note: I'm rated (ranked) in the lower half of the section I'm entered in and this tourney is just five games. Thus, a 3-2 score (three wins, two losses) would be fine with me. (5-0 and even 4-1 is probably not realistic. We'll see...)

So you are in the 1800-2000 section? That's tough. Those guys who are 1980 are often sandbagging. 3 points would be great, good luck. Write a trip report 8-)

btw any further chess PGNs I am blogging

won't do another thread unless there is an interesting question to answer

Here is a 5 minute blitz game I played against a 1955 rated computer a few days ago. I played the black side of a King's Indian and launched the typical K-side pawn storm, mating on move 41.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Nc3 d6 5. e4 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 f4 12. Bg4 h5 13. Be6+ Kh7 14. f3 Nf6 15. Bxc8 Qxc8 16. Qb3 b6 17. Nb5 a6 18. Nc3 g5 19. a4 a5 20. Qb5 Rf7 21. b3 Bf8 22. Rfe1 Ng6 23. Kh1 Rg7 24. Qc6 Qd8 25. Nb5 Rc8 26. Bc3 g4 27. fxg4 hxg4 28. Re2 Kg8 29. Na7 Ra8 30. Nb5 Rh7 31. Rf1 Ne8 32. Ree1 Qh4 33. h3 gxh3 34. g3 fxg3 35. Rxf8+ Nxf8 36. Qxa8 g2+ 37. Kh2 Nf6 38. Bxa5 Ng4+ 39. Kg1 h2+ 40. Kxg2 Qh3+ 41. Kh1 Qf3#

nice

I think you had its sense of danger all aflutter, I think, for it to make the moves it did at 35 and 36

it should have been shoring up around its King instead of its aggression on the other side?

Quote: odiousgambit

It should have been shoring up around its King instead of its aggression on the other side?

No. White has little chance on the King side for defense against the attack. White has to try and demolish the Q-side before the black K-side attack gets too dangerous. White's Q-side attack is faster so white has to make a couple of bad moves for black to get chances. And, if the black K-side attack is succeeding, white has to move Kf1 and try and get his King out of there. This is how it goes most of the time in high-level human games. What makes this opening work against a computer is that the computer doesn't realize how important the Q-side counter attack is to its chances.

Understanding the big strategic plans behind an opening gives the human a big advantage against weaker computer (or human) opponents. That's why I posted this game, it clearly shows this issue in computer play.

(Very irregular and not especially good chess player here)

What are the different common bets made in chess besides who wins and loses?

Any odd bets like Super Bowl bets, like betting a certain player will scratch his nose before a certain point in the game.

If this should be another thread, someone can split it if they wish.

What about adding a doubling cube or like a 1.5ing cube?

Quote: rxwine

Any odd bets like Super Bowl bets, like betting a certain player will scratch his nose before a certain point in the game.

I've offered over/under on the number of moves in the game or whether the game will end in a draw for certain championship games.

When I watch games online (which I do a lot), it is not uncommon to hear someone say "this game is a dead draw" or "white/black will win this," to which I'll reply, "what odds will you give me?" Chess fans make a lot of "absolute" statements that are worthy of wagers, but few in the chess world will back up their statements with cash.

Quote: teliot

Ed, this tourney?
Mar. 20-22 or 21-22 (note change of dates) 22nd annual Western Class Championships.
Good luck. Report back.

I'm reporting back.
Played on the top board in Round 1, against the top-rated player in the 3-day Section. (And I was Black.) Lost.

Overlooked a simple tactic against a lower rated player in Round 2. Lost.

Got into time pressure in Round 3 and because of that, I missed at least two and possibly three chances to put my opponent away. I ended up losing on time. (Which may have been a first for me. I can't ever remember losing on time before.)

Played some former master from Bulgaria in Round 4. (What's he doing in my section?) Lost the game in what was surely a drawn ending at one point.

Odd man out for Round 5. (I didn't play and received a full 1 point bye.)

I probably dropped 60 rating points. To say I'm disappointed with my final score is putting it mildly. However, despite my 0-4 score, I'm actually happy overall with the way I played, which certainly must seem like a contradiction.

Sorry to hear about the 0-4, Ed. And yep, that sounds like a contradiction LOL.

Any way to post any PGN?

Quote: odiousgambit

Sorry to hear about the 0-4, Ed. And yep, that sounds like a contradiction LOL.

Any way to post any PGN?

All of my 359 over-the-board tournament games can be found here: http://www.edcollins.com/chess/viewer/collins.htm

My USCF ratings graph (that I need to update after my past few tournaments) can be found here: http://www.edcollins.com/chess/uscf_rating_history_6-17-14.png

Quote: EdCollins

All of my 359 over-the-board tournament games can be found here: http://www.edcollins.com/chess/viewer/collins.htm

You were getting into the end-game OK in those games.

In game 359, you were a pawn behind, but then the first to pass a pawn and got also a pawn ahead. Was this a trap LOL? I am slow to see that, or why your King moved to the other side of the board. Mind commenting on that?