Ouch!
A fellow asked a waitress in a Borgata restaurant to recommend a wine, as he knew little about it. She suggested one, and said it cost thirty seven fifty. He thought she meant $37.50; the bill was for $3750.
Is he stuck?
Quote: DRichI think the diners are stuck unless they can somehow show the waitress purposely mislead them.
Borgata at least knocked it down to $2200 according to the article, probably making little, if any, money on the bottle. But why would a wine newb want to try a $3750 bottle of wine???? A diner at another table overhearing the order also heard the waitress say "Thirty-seven fifty". Maybe it wasn't intentional, but I would hope the waitress feels bad about it at least.
There is a legal principle that when a contract is unclear the benefit of the doubt should go to less experienced party, which in this case would be the buyer.
Quote: tringlomaneBorgata at least knocked it down to $2200 according to the article, probably making little, if any,
They probably paid 500-700 for it, if that
much. I was in the liquor business, there
is a 600% to 1000% markup from the
wholesale price to the restaurant/bar
consumer. I paid $3 for a liter of vodka
and sold it for $28 to the consumer.
Restaurant wine markup's are at least
that high.
Quote: WizardStrike two for just saying "thirty seven fifty." I've been in situations at yard sales, for example, where it wasn't clear to me if the price was in in pennies or dollars. In such cases, I think the burden is on the seller to make it clear.
I think it matters the type of establishment. If one were at Red Lobster, you'd be crazy to think that "thirty seven fifty" meant anything other than $37.50. If you were at a swanky joint where $1,000 bills were common, I think they'd have more luck in court.
Quote: FaceI think it matters the type of establishment. If one were at Red Lobster, you'd be crazy to think that "thirty seven fifty" meant anything other than $37.50. If you were at a swanky joint where $1,000 bills were common, I think they'd have more luck in court.
It was Bobby Flay Steak, somewhere between the two extremes.
Quote: Wizard
There is a legal principle that when a contract is unclear the benefit of the doubt should go to less experienced party, which in this case would be the buyer.
I am also sympathetic, but it sounds like the price was clearly stated on the menu.
http://www.theborgata.com/dining/fine-dining/bobby-flay-steak#t#menu
http://www.theborgata.com/assets/PDF/BFS_Wine.pdf
http://www.winemag.com/Web-2011/Whats-So-Special-About-East-Oakville-Soil/
http://www.lakeforestwines.com/20scmetcasar.html
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1642653
I think they got knowingly ripped off by their server. There are tons of wines on the wine list that could be described as "nice"...bringing the one of the most expensive bottles (I didn't check it completely; it might be the most expensive one) without clearly denoting the price and the fact that it is "our best" makes it sound like they have pulled this one before...
Quote: DRichI am also sympathetic, but it sounds like the price was clearly stated on the menu.
The asked for a "nice" bottle of wine. I would assume that they were not looking at the wine list, as the prices are very clear on that.
Quote: DRichIt looks like that bottle retails for about $1700 online.
That's not really relevant to the price charged at the restaurant. 3750/1700 = 2.2058823 or 220.59% of the online price. Let's go to a much lower end twelve pack of Budweiser which you can get at the store for $11.99, at the bar in this hotel twelve would be $36, so 36/11.99 = 3.002502 or 300.25% of the retail price. That kind of margin is not unusual, interestingly, the price we get from the distributor is not much less than the retail price.
Quote: WizardI'm sympathetic to consumer in this case. I think the waitress should have known the patron wasn't an experienced win drinker and should have suggested something on the lower end. Strike two for just saying "thirty seven fifty." In such cases, I think the burden is on the seller to make it clear.
There is a legal principle that when a contract is unclear the benefit of the doubt should go to less experienced party, which in this case would be the buyer.
Agreed.
Imagine the POSITIVE publicity IF the Restaurant would have given the customer the benefit of the doubt and showed some good will. Doesn't negative publicity cost the establishment something as well ? ? ?
Quote: Mission146That's not really relevant to the price charged at the restaurant. 3750/1700 = 2.2058823 or 220.59% of the online price.
I agree, I was just stating the retail cost online. At least she didn't recommend the 6L Chateau Petrus, Pomerol 1998. It is $30,000 on their menu.
Quote: DRichI agree, I was just stating the retail cost online. At least she didn't recommend the 6L Chateau Petrus, Pomerol 1998. It is $30,000 on their menu.
And if they asked the waitress how much that one was and she replied "thirty" would they be on the hook for $30,000?
It's highly unlikely they would get arrested for attempting to defraud the restaurant, and it's very unlikely the restaurant would go to court over this either.
Quote: Mission146I've never been a server at one of these establishments or known any, so I tend to wonder if they don't get some kind of commission on the higher end bottles of wine. It would establish a motive for what was possibly an intentional misdirection.
15% of $1000 tab is $150
15% of $4750 tab is $712.50
Imagine the waiter/waitress pulling this trick once a month...$7200 in extra tips (or more) is possible in a year...
Still, it's misleading. But the restaurant has to recoup cost, at least.
Quote: RonC15% of $1000 tab is $150
15% of $4750 tab is $712.50
Imagine the waiter/waitress pulling this trick once a month...$7200 in extra tips (or more) is possible in a year...
And 0% of a $4750 tab would be $0.00. Something she might have gotten, due to "miscommunication".
... But at Borgata. A high end casino.Quote: bwIt was Bobby Flay Steak, somewhere between the two extremes.
Quote: FaceI think it matters the type of establishment. If one were at Red Lobster, you'd be crazy to think that "thirty seven fifty" meant anything other than $37.50. If you were at a swanky joint where $1,000 bills were common, I think they'd have more luck in court.
If I were in a nice restaurant and the waitresses said her suggestion was "thirty seven fifty" I would have to look like an idiot and ask if she meant $37.50 or $3,750. Normally bottles will start about $50, but for all know they were having a sale. While that is unlikely, I think it is even more unlikely that a suggestion would be made for a $3,750 bottle to somebody who professed no knowledge of wine.
Quote: DRichI am also sympathetic, but it sounds like the price was clearly stated on the menu.
I'll give the restaurant a few points for that, but my position is still with the patron. If he had to ask the price then he clearly didn't identify the bottle on the menu. When waiters suggest bottles to me I always ask the price rather than look through pages on a wine menu for it, wasting both of our time.
Quote: DJTeddyBear... But at Borgata. A high end casino.
It was also the 3rd most expensive standard-size bottle of a wine list exceeding 400...4501 and 5200 were the other two more expensive options. But if she says "forty-five oh one", that might not have worked so well. Now I really wish they refused to pay a dime and really fought it.
Quote: Mission146I've never been a server at one of these establishments or known any, so I tend to wonder if they don't get some kind of commission on the higher end bottles of wine. It would establish a motive for what was possibly an intentional misdirection.
This is getting a little off topic, and I've told this story before, so forgive me if you've heard it.
Once I was with a friend who was very well comped at the Wynn. His host invited him, with me as his guest, to a nice fully-comped dinner. When it came time to pick the wine we both deferred to the host, who professed to be familiar with the choices. He said, "How about the yada yada yada?," to which I said "You're in charge of the wine," or something like that.
Turns out he picked a $1,200 bottle. Before seeing the bill I offered to take care of the tip, but was rather put off when I saw the bill, to say the least. I paid only about an extra $100 on the tip for the wine, as I felt the host was shaking me and my friend down for a big tip to the wait staff.
Quote: tringlomaneNow I really wish they refused to pay a dime and really fought it.
Couldn't it be disputed via the Credit Card process ? .....assuming they paid with Credit Cards.
Quote: WizardThis is getting a little off topic, and I've told this story before, so forgive me if you've heard it.
Once I was with a friend who was very well comped at the Wynn. His host invited him, with me as his guest, to a nice fully-comped dinner. When it came time to pick the wine we both deferred to the host, who professed to be familiar with the choices. He said, "How about the yada yada yada?," to which I said "You're in charge of the wine," or something like that.
Turns out he picked a $1,200 bottle. Before seeing the bill I offered to take care of the tip, but was rather put off when I saw the bill, to say the least. I paid only about an extra $100 on the tip for the wine, as I felt the host was shaking me and my friend down for a big tip to the wait staff.
Was the host having dinner with you guys?
If so I don't think his motive was to get a tip with the wait staff, but to enjoy a fine bottle of wine at the casino's (and your friend's comp account) expense.
When offered comps/other free stuff I'll also spend money on ridiculous things I'd never buy otherwise.
Quote: sc15Was the host having dinner with you guys?
If so I don't think his motive was to get a tip with the wait staff, but to enjoy a fine bottle of wine at the casino's (and your friend's comp account) expense.
When offered comps/other free stuff I'll also spend money on ridiculous things I'd never buy otherwise.
Yes, he was. That may have been his motive, but either way I think I was justified to be mad. That $1,200 bottle didn't taste any better to me than a $120 bottle.
Quote: WizardYes, he was. That may have been his motive, but either way I think I was justified to be mad. That $1,200 bottle didn't taste any better to me than a $120 bottle.
If the dinner was more than equivalent to what you actually put out in cash, then I suppose you still came out ahead.
On these extremely high end prices, isn't it okay for the tip to be more of a negotiated fee rather than a straight percentage? It's kind of like sales tax on a new automobile, or commission on a multi-million dollar house.
Quote: AyecarumbaOn these extremely high end prices, isn't it okay for the tip to be more of a negotiated fee rather than a straight percentage? It's kind of like sales tax on a new automobile, or commission on a multi-million dollar house.
This has been discussed before here, and even more vehemently on other forums. I've never heard of negotiating a tip but some are of the opinion that tipping less than 15-20% is justified for very pricey wins. Those who work in fine restaurants, of course, tend to disagree.
You are therefore tipping as a percentage of the value of the meal, and therefore, you would tip the full amount on alcohol. Now, it's completely understandable to undertip if say, the wine is composed of 60% of the meal bill, because it's a special occasion, and the wine is special.
However, if you are used to going to a nice steakhouse and quaffing $500 bottles of wine, then you should likely be tipping the full amount. Chances are that the sommalier has picked it out for you, that your service with the wine pourings were fabulous, and that your meal in general was memorable.
Maybe, if they blindly signed for the original bill.Quote: JohnnyQCouldn't it be disputed via the Credit Card process ? .....assuming they paid with Credit Cards.
Once they renegotiated the $2,200 price and signed for that, they're stuck.
Quote: SonuvabishAgreeing to the charges isn't relevant...you have to pay even disputed bills if the restaurant demands it, or you could go to jail.
I'm not a lawyer but I would think the restaurant would have to prove it is a legitimate bill to justify an arrest. Personally, I don't consider the charge legitimate.
Quote:It's not the restaurant's job to assess how cheap he is relative to other patrons.
I also think it IS the restaurant's job to assess how cheap the patron is if he asks for advice on wine. For example, asking "What is your price range?"
Quote: WizardI'm not a lawyer but I would think the restaurant would have to prove it is a legitimate bill to justify an arrest. Personally, I don't consider the charge legitimate.
All the restaurant has to do is call the police on a patron who is not paying his bill; and it seems to me a lot more likely police will get involved when the bill is for thousands of dollars, rather than over a $5 hamburger. The police have discretion as to whether they should detain the patron under the circumstances; probable cause is a very low standard. Not a recommended route. (If this were a Maryland casino, we'd know from youtube that the cops are in the casino's pocket). Of course the bill was legitimate. It wasn't fraudulent.
Quote: Wizard
I also think it IS the restaurant's job to assess how cheap the patron is if he asks for advice on wine. For example, asking "What is your price range?"
I don't think it's the restaurant's job to either A) judge people's spending ability based on their appearance or B) question people on their apparent overindulgence. I think the restaurant should make a habit of checking on large orders like that, to make sure they are correct; but maybe such orders are commonplace. It was the waitress' job to ask him that question, I totally agree. She was obviously an idiot, possibly with sinister motivations. And she should be fired. If you look at the wine list, which is very long--not one wine is not an even dollar amount...nothing is $XXX.50. So she's probably just an idiot who assumed she was talking to someone who at least glanced at the menu. The patron is an idiot too; possibly even a scammer--I've never read a 100% bias-free article.
Quote: WizardYes, he was. That may have been his motive, but either way I think I was justified to be mad. That $1,200 bottle didn't taste any better to me than a $120 bottle.
I don't think you are.
You've dealt with the gaming industry long enough to know that a high roller's fully comped meal can easily run into the thousands of dollars. (ESPECIALLY at a place like Wynn. It's almost a guarantee that expensive dishes/liquor will be ordered).
Quote: sc15You've dealt with the gaming industry long enough to know that a high roller's fully comped meal can easily run into the thousands of dollars. (ESPECIALLY at a place like Wynn. It's almost a guarantee that expensive dishes/liquor will be ordered).
This guy wasn't a super high roller or spender and I've been around others who were. It was definitely not in his character to order a $1,200 bottle of wine, no matter who was paying for it. You could say the same about me.
Quote: WizardThis guy wasn't a super high roller or spender and I've been around others who were. It was definitely not in his character to order a $1,200 bottle of wine, no matter who was paying for it. You could say the same about me.
Yeah, but you let a host there order the wine. I could've told you that he'd probably order something super expensive, and I've only dealt with hosts on a small # of occasions.
And it sounds like the guy must've been at least a 20 - 30K per trip loser to be able to get a dinner that's a couple grand comped.
Most Borgata patrons would not be at that level but neither should Borgata assume that some random customer necessarily knows such things.
I'd find it interesting to know what the food order was.
In the casino a dice dealer or boxman must jump in and "no bet" an ambiguous craps bet if some shot taker is trying to pull a fast one. I'd put the burden on the waitress who first introduced the ambiguity and did it knowing the customer was rather ignorant of wines.
There is no way someone with a fundamental mistake should be held to this or that it should turn into a defrauding a merchant threat.
Quote: FleaStiffA 37.50 bottle of wine would retail for about seven dollars.
Most Borgata patrons would not be at that level but neither should Borgata assume that some random customer necessarily knows such things.
I'd find it interesting to know what the food order was.
In the casino a dice dealer or boxman must jump in and "no bet" an ambiguous craps bet if some shot taker is trying to pull a fast one. I'd put the burden on the waitress who first introduced the ambiguity and did it knowing the customer was rather ignorant of wines.
There is no way someone with a fundamental mistake should be held to this or that it should turn into a defrauding a merchant threat.
I really don't think you can blame some dumb waitress for a $3700 error. I typically look at the menu. At expensive places, I'm very conscious of the price. She should be fired...but a technicality shouldn't get him off the hook.
Something doesn't smell right about this. I would think an order like that would get the sommelier to come over and have a chat with you.
Maybe years ago. They certainly market themselves that way.
Someone told me years ago the marina casinos don't have buses bringing people because they don't want that clientele. Well, guess what? Someone created a $2.25 Jitney service that can take poor undesirable patrons from the boardwalk to the Borgata.
I see people playing thirty cents on penny slots all day and many are downloading comps of ten bucks free-play.
Not really high roller society.
Quote: sc15I think there's more to the story than a waitress randomly recommending a $3750 bottle of wine.
Something doesn't smell right about this. I would think an order like that would get the sommelier to come over and have a chat with you.
Agreed.
Quote: WizardThat $1,200 bottle didn't taste any better to me than a $120 bottle.
It wasn't a $1200 bottle, they paid about $150
for it. Are my posts ignored on this topic?
Restaurants and bars pay wholesale and then
rape the consumer with 1000% markups. I
was in that business.
Quote: FleaStiff
I'd find it interesting to know what the food order was.
Ten people, mostly ordering rather low priced items, two of the ten suggest getting a bottle of wine, man who engaged the waitress explained both his ignorance and his lack of eyeglasses. I think most waitresses know people who order low entrees don't order four grand bottles of wine. Many commentators are describing the waitress as shady although some see the man's story as strangely ignorant of his restaurant's status.
Then again, I've ordered $500 - $600 bottles a few times (comped of course, no way in hell would I pay for that) and they usually just bring it, no mention of the price.
Even dealers will ask you "are you betting that?" if you show up to a table and put a purple in the betting circle on the first hand (or some will just grab it and start making change for it)
Quote: sc15Something doesn't smell right about this. I would think an order like that would get the sommelier to come over and have a chat with you.
I agree. Maybe that happened but a good sommelier should have sniffed out (forgive the pun) the misunderstanding.
