Casinos don't cheat.....prove it.

Quote: Tiltpoul

I have first hand experience with the Indiana Gaming Commission. I was playing Ultimate Texas Hold'em at Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg, IN. I had asked earlier on if Surrender was offered (throw away a hand with bad kickers, when the board has 3-of-a-kind of better and still win the bonus.) The staff said yes; well a shift change and crew change later, and the answer was all of a sudden, NO!

I called the casino manager, who sided with the floor personnel. I demanded to speak with a Gaming commission rep, who informed me that he would look at the rules. I held up the game for an hour (ok I was the only one there, but still would not bet anything until I had a resolved answer.)

He came back about 20 minutes later (after waiting 40 minutes already), and he said that I was right, and they would be refunding me my money. I proceeded to play, and I think lose, but that's beside the point.

Was this gaming commission representative on site or was he summoned to the casino by your call?

Quote: FatGeezus

I was playing craps and standing at the end of the table next to the dealer. I was leaving the table and coloring up a stack of green chips ($25) that totaled $500.

The dealer slid the stack behind her stacks to the box-man. While the box-man was counting out the chips, I noticed a green chip behind the dealers stack of chips. She placed it on top of her chips. The box-man said $475. I said it should be $500 and that the dealer did not slide the entire stack over and placed a green chip on her stack.

While acknowledging she did put a green chip on her stack, she claimed it fell off of her stack.

Getting nowhere with the box-man, I went over to the CCC and explained what happened. He said to follow him and we both walked over to the crap table. He pointed at the dealer and said give him a green chip. Without hesitation she handed me MY green chip.

That's interesting. Still not the kind of deterrent to cheating that I'm looking for, but a positive sign nonetheless. In this instance, what do you think was the dealers and box man's incentive for stiffing you $25?

Quote: rxwine

I thought some other reasoning (on another thread) for casino cheating was fairly reasonable (I'm not sure who made it) that many (a lot, here and there?) businesses can be found cheating their customers. (crime reports). From everything to dry cleaners to bankers. Does someone need me to prove it? I will do it with Google news archives, but only if you pay me $10,000 for going to the effort. : ) Otherwise, I do nothing!

Really, though, doesn't it become sort of a 1000 lemmings argument(TM)? We see that 1000 lemmings walk off a cliff, but my lemming is the exception. Why? Why is the casino industry the exception? If that's a bad logic argument, then explain "logically" why?

Okay, I'll answer my own challenge -- sure but many (probably most) businesses don't have strict mechanisms set up to monitor them? But on the other hand, someone (I assume) was suppose to be watching Wall Street and look what happened there.

(However, I myself, only play at the fair casinos. Don't think so. Well, prove it then.)

(also file under: police sometimes lie, politicians sometimes tell the truth, it's rarely an all or nothing thing)

I also would like to find money sometimes growing on trees, but so far, no luck. I remain hopeful.

My point exactly. Why (when most gaming concerns are losing millions) would they cheat, because they always have the edge, and can certainly legally change the rules to increase their edge.

Most of us would agree that cheating the player occurred with some regularity during the Mob control days. Why should we now believe the casino industry is squeaky clean?

As for strict control mechanisms, as you put it, there are gaming control commissions, boards, whatever, that have jurisdiction over casino operations. But still I ask; has anyone ever seen these regulators in the casino unannounced, checking the dice or cards at random?

I'm pretty sure they are not cheating in a systematic way at craps. I often play the DP and I often lose, just like everyone else. If the casinos were using bad dice then I would be very happy! Also, the PL players would win more often on the come out roll. Can't comment about other games since I don't play them regularly enough. Also, I have always had the crew side with me if there were any mistakes with the exception of the Greektown in Detroit. Will not ever go back to that city, looks like a third world country. I have also never seen any number "called" if the dice went into the banker's stack or behind it. It has always been called no roll. I think if the casino was going to cheat, it would be far easier on the slots than the tables.

Quote: Headlock

But still I ask; has anyone ever seen these regulators in the casino unannounced, checking the dice or cards at random?

Actually, one thing I was wondering about (for the local Las Vegas residents to answer maybe) if they've ever seen a news feature on the ins and outs of the gaming commision at work.

I've been here 10 years, and haven't, but maybe I missed it. I'm not a super news junkie or anything, but I've seen a fair amount of local news over the years. I can't be the only one who would like to see this covered. (like every 5 years or something would be nice)

I can't speak to Nevada, only NJ. We have the CCC, but actually the Division of Gaming Enforcement is part of the Attorney General's Office, and is separate from the Casino Control Commission. Only once, maybe 7 to 10 years ago, did I see a member of the DGE come to a (blackjack) table. (I actually forgot about this until recently, it was the table 1 over from me, not mine) They came at the traditional time of the changing of the decks. I remember it being a weekday around lunchtime. The DGE guy asked to take the cards that were going to be removed from play. The dealer was flustered, but when the pit boss came over he seemed to know what it was about, and told the dealer to comply. I think he put them in a ziplock-type bag, but again, I apologize that my memory is not clear. I wasn't really paying attention. Then boom, he went away. I don't know if this was a "spot check", something that happens regularly, or if it was in response to a complaint. I've not seen it since, but I don't play as much BJ anymore and I always stay away when they are going to be changing decks, since it takes so long.

Quote: Headlock

Was this gaming commission representative on site or was he summoned to the casino by your call?

He was on site, and this was early in the morning (like 5am) on a Tuesday. Most midwest states require each casino to have a Gaming Board rep on site, at least, that's the case in Illinois, Indiana and Missouri for sure.

Quote: Tiltpoul

He was on site, and this was early in the morning (like 5am) on a Tuesday. Most midwest states require each casino to have a Gaming Board rep on site, at least, that's the case in Illinois, Indiana and Missouri for sure.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to Colorado next weekend and Missouri the next. I will be checking for gaming commission personnel.

Quote: TheNightfly

For those of you who may be dealers, I'll apologize in advance if I say something that you might find personally offensive but...

For someone to suggest that a dealer has "cheated" is to suggest that the dealer cares whether or not you win or lose your wager. If the dealer had been told by mgmt that the more money the table (or house) makes, the larger his paycheque will be then I can understand why this might possibly happen - but we all know that the dealer makes his lousy wages plus tips... and I think we also all know that dealers know they're more likely to be toked by winning, happy players. The casino's bottom line for that shift/day/year has no bearing on what that dealer will put into his pocket so why would they try to pull a fast one on a player? Answer - they wouldn't.

It is calculated to a fare-thee-well exactly how much a given table "should" be making per shift/day/week/eternity. It is similarly calculated how much a dealer should be making (for the house). If those numbers start to come in consistently low, then suspicion will gradually fall on the dealer (not all that gradually, actually). Therefore a perfectly honest dealer who has recently lost a lot of money to the players will have an increasing incentive to cheat, if he can get away with it, to restore the balance. This is often done without the house's knowledge.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the dealer has insufficient incentive to do this. A high-end Strip property dealer can make $300+ a shift on a busy weekend. If his game shows a profit at least to the extent that it "should", then that's additional job security in an environment where you can be fired instantly without cause, and without recourse.

The trouble is, casinos are still run by people who think that the house should NEVER lose. Many "old-school" pit bosses will summarily fire an "unlucky" dealer, reasoning (incorrectly) that that dealer is probably cheating, and conversely (also incorrectly), a dealer that rakes in the money for the house must NOT be cheating. Remember, the people running casinos aren't savvy businessmen--they're ignorant thugs.

You actually know of a dealer who was fired because he was 'unlucky'? I doubt it. I would think a 'high end' dealer would be FAR more worried about his job if it was found out he was cheating a patron. I notice dealers are happy, not fearing for their jobs, when their tables are winning for the patrons. They, and the casinos, know that over time the house edge will take care of itself....