Casinos should have the right to bar perceived advantage players from playing

Quote: Lhornbk70

I am against banning card counters (advantage players) for a couple of reasons. First, I have noticed that some have defended the practice because they say the casinos should be able to set the rules and ban players who don't follow the rules. But, I have never seen any casino that actually had a sign posted saying that card counting is against the rules. Or that varying bets is against the rules. If they want to ban players for counting, they should make it explicit that their rules don't allow that. Another option would be to simply establish table limits with smaller variances ($5-$50 instead of $5-$500, for example, and $25-$500 instead of $25-$1000) which would make it much more difficult for counters to vary their bets as much as they like. Casinos are perfectly happy for players to start increasing their bets if they've been losing to try to win their money back, so if they're going to allow that they can't really object to people varying bets for other reasons. Either allow variance, or don't allow variance.

It's a private business. There's nothing requiring them to post rules before kicking someone out for any reason. There's no rule posted anywhere that I've seen against opening an emergency exit, yet doing so can get you thrown out of a casino. I haven't seen any rules posted at casino bars saying they'll cut you off if you drink too much, yet they do at their discretion. I haven't seen any rules about being verbally abusive to other players at a table, yet doing so could get you kicked out at the casino's discretion.

There's nothing wrong with any of those, just like card counting.

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But, I have a much larger objection that no one has talked about yet. Very simply, unless the player admits doing so, or is caught with some sort of device to help them (which would be an entirely different matter anyway), it is impossible for the casino to PROVE that he was counting. And it seems to me that if they can't prove it, they can't ban someone for it. I realize that they would have a lot of circumstantial evidence (huge wins, huge variances in bets, always guessing right when they split or double down and so on, etc.), but that is not proof. The player could easily claim luck, and it would be virtually impossible for the casino to prove otherwise. So unless the casino is going to ban everyone who manages to win consistently and take large amounts of money from them on a regular basis, they should not be allowed to ban only those who might be counting. (And yes, I know it's highly unlikely that anyone would win on a consistent basis by pure luck, or just playing basic strategy. But it's not impossible, and we've probably all heard of people who had incredible strings of luck who won thousands or even tens of thousands at once without counting cards.)

This isn't a court of law. There's no evidentiary standard needed.

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I will also say that I think it would be okay for a casino to kick out a team of counters, but only if they had substantial video evidence of signals being passed between players, and could show a correlation between the signals and how the players bet and whether they won or lost.

Why is it okay to kick out a team of counters if they don't have a sign posted saying it's not allowed?

"But, I have a much larger objection that no one has talked about yet. Very simply, unless the player admits doing so, or is caught with some sort of device to help them (which would be an entirely different matter anyway), it is impossible for the casino to PROVE that he was counting."

Good point. But the answer lies beyond the 8 or 9 regular posters here who react more like grumpy old men than the superstar players they purport to be.

PROOF is not something AP's or anyone serious about their gambling is going to offer up, explain, or take on in front of other so-called big shots. Further, I've already been alerted to the fact that there is more mathematical intellect on this forum than in Einstein's family. But TRUTH is another matter. These guys want and actually NEED their peers to believe that card counting actually works and that players can be spotted and then banned as "super intellects" in order to build their egos and legends....and to pretend that there are "plenty of BJ AP's" out there just absolutely KILLING the casinos. As I've said earlier, if there were any way to consistently count cards for a profit then "legends in their own minds" Anthony Curtis and Stanford Wong wouldn't be playing & losing at vp and selling everything under the sun for their livings. It is as clear as day, as easy to read as Obama and his teleprompters, and as simple to understand as the overall unhappiness of an atheist.

BTW, the JL haters will be happy to know my company's sending me to Australia and New Zealand for 6-8 weeks early tomorrow morning. I'm Western Regional Director for JB Hunt trucking and we bought ownership in an outfit down under, so I'm going down to map out more efficient and profitable routes around that continent. As such, you'll have to wait until I get back for more JL words of wisdom.

Good luck in the meantime.

Let me be the first to say, good riddance. I hope you like it so well down there you decide to stay.

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As I've said, I play a lot in LV and I've met and know a LOT of AP's, and I've never heard any of them say they've been banned from playing anywhere or unable to use a slot club card (that's a new one).

Just ask a casino general manager next time you see one if they have banned VP players for VP play. Well, I won't do it. Maybe someone else will.

Quote: nyuhoosier

Let me be the first to say, good riddance. I hope you like it so well down there you decide to stay.

I understand your wish because you were recently humiliated. But it's not early morning yet here.

I'm so humiliated. You're so right. Watch out for those wallabies.

Quote: JerryLogan

BTW, the JL haters will be happy to know my company's sending me to Australia and New Zealand for 6-8 weeks early tomorrow morning. I'm Western Regional Director for JB Hunt trucking and we bought ownership in an outfit down under, so I'm going down to map out more efficient and profitable routes around that continent. As such, you'll have to wait until I get back for more JL words of wisdom.
Good luck in the meantime.

I can't say it won't be nice to have a break from your screeds, but I wish you a safe trip. Be sure to visit some of the gambling houses down there and report back.

I don't think either Australia or New Zeland ever did anything so wrong as to deserve this.

Maybe I consider a gambling transaction difference than most people on here, but I consider it like a financial transaction. It can't be consummated unless both sides of the transaction agree, ie, Casino agrees to take your action, you agree to give them your action. It is why you are allowed to cherry pick Casinos, games, etc..........your reasons could be, 1) This Casino has a good promotion, 2) This game has a low house edge, 3) This slot machine is fun, 4) My friends want to gamble there, because it has a fun atmosphere..........for the Casino, they are mainly looking at profitability (oh, if you are a total jerk, they'll deny you service too).......if you play a game that isn't profitable to them, they have every right to ask you to take your game elsewhere.......both parties need to agree to the transaction.

You're right, we're not talking discrimination, just the idea of a PERCEIVED ADVANTAGE PLAYER, the word perceived is the problem. The casinos don't perceive someone to be an advantage player when there loosing money, just when they are winning. Casino personnel only PERCEIVE to know who is advantage player. We are all doomed if we go around just perceiving things, especially the thoughts of others.