Casinos should have the right to bar perceived advantage players from playing

Preferential shuffling is exactly akin to what the counter does - taking advantage of the deck while it is favorable.
Why can't the casino "use their brain" in that way? Blackjack rules are based on an unbiased deck. So, the casino can solve the counter problem by shuffling every hand. But, that is a nuisance to the good faith player, and requires that
dealers be paid more per hour due to reduced tips. Or maybe increase the house advantage with altered rules. Is that what we want? I say kick out the counter for the good of everyone else.

Quote: bluefire

Not really, because part of that business model is attracting players using games they want to play.

Yes conceivably. Look at how blackjack has been transformed.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Yes conceivably. Look at how blackjack has been transformed.

There's a huge difference between 6:5 and Prop bets. Do you think average Joe really cares about 6:5? The casual players I talk to don't care one bit. Do you think average Joe would want to play an entirely different game based just on prop bets?

i think a good portion of players play sidebets for fear of getting a good hand that pays out a lot. the higher the payouts for the best hands, the more likely they are to play the sidebet for this reason.

The average Joes don´t have much of any idea about what they´re playing. The reference is the meat and potatoes middle level. And those results are showing. If you don´t think that might be cutting into table play in Las Vegas, check states from California to Pennsylvania and, yes, even New Jersey.

Average Joes wouldn´t be betting a dollar or two on prop bets without at least a minimum wager on the line.
And if they´re betting much more than that, they´re going to be cleaned out pretty darn quickly.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Yes conceivably. Look at how blackjack has been transformed.

The equivalency in craps would be lower odds in line bets, not more prop bets.

At that most casinos in the Strip and Downtown offer 3,4,5 odds, unless they offer more like 10x at the Stratosphere, 20x at MSS, 100x at Casino Royale (and otehr off strip joins like Rampart). The only exception I know of is the Fremont which only offer 2x odds.

To be sure the tables are alive with prop bets, hop bets and way too many people play the fire bet, too. Meaning there's no need to change the game. Also casinos won't back off craps players who only play low HA bets, because they're playing fully within the rules and the bets available.

I imagine Rapid Craps will make furhter inroads within the next few years, especially if the odds are programmable. This game saves the casinos money long term as it uses less dealers (and no boxman), which may translate into even higher odds.

Quote: SanchoPanza

The average Joes don´t have much of any idea about what they´re playing.

You don't think that a casual player picks Blackjack because they like the basic game? Every player that I know who visits casinos a few times a year, and doesn't really care too much about odds, goes because the like playing the basic bets on a particular game. They may make a side bet or two once in a while, but that's not why they go.

Quote:

The reference is the meat and potatoes middle level. And those results are showing. If you don´t think that might be cutting into table play in Las Vegas, check states from California to Pennsylvania and, yes, even New Jersey.

Which has much more to do with table games & casinos opening in other states and the lower visitation rates to Las Vegas than 6:5 blackjack.

And if they *are* losing tons of money simply because the odds are worse, doesn't that go against your argument that prop-bets-only is a realistic option?

Quote: bluefire

And if they *are* losing tons of money simply because the odds are worse, doesn't that go against your argument that prop-bets-only is a realistic option?

That´s precisely the point. Thinking that 6=for=5 blackjack is helping Las Vegas is sadly mistaken, and the monthly data bear that out. It is a strong sign of how oblivious the MBA`s running the show are. They have been repeatedly showing that they are not marketers.

Re, `Every player that I know who visits casinos a few times a year, and doesn't really care too much about odds.

A caring and obviously informed acquaintance might try to help them along the road to understanding. And it´s just those basic bets that some wise guy MBA might just decide to do away with.

Quote: SanchoPanza

That´s precisely the point. Thinking that 6=for=5 blackjack is helping Las Vegas is sadly mistaken, and the monthly data bear that out. It is a strong sign of how oblivious the MBA`s running the show are. They have been repeatedly showing that they are not marketers.

Such a pronouncement might be arguabel if we were talking about one casino or one corporation. Since most casinos offer 6:5 21 rather than 3:2 BJ, there must be some rational motive for doing so.

I did notice several Downtown casinos had 3:2 BJ in the regular room, as opposed to the high limit room. Do any stats show better BJ performance there?

Quote: SanchoPanza

That´s precisely the point. Thinking that 6=for=5 blackjack is helping Las Vegas is sadly mistaken, and the monthly data bear that out. It is a strong sign of how oblivious the MBA`s running the show are. They have been repeatedly showing that they are not marketers.

Except that the data shows that the opening of casinos has way more of an impact, as I already showed. Pacomartin, would you care to comment on this? You're the best expert on this I've seen, and I think I'm stating your position correctly. If I'm not, please correct me.

Quote:

Re, `Every player that I know who visits casinos a few times a year, and doesn't really care too much about odds.

A caring and obviously informed acquaintance might try to help them along the road to understanding. And it´s just those basic bets that some wise guy MBA might just decide to do away with.

They don't care about regular game odds. For example, they don't care about the difference between 6:5 BJ and 3:2 BJ, even though I explain to them that the house advantage is way different. And I quote, "I don't make my money on blackjacks". There's no way in hell they'd play if the game was something other than normal blackjack, though. They play the game based off of the regular bet, NOT the side bet.

If casinos started losing their customers quick because of bets, they'd realize and change. These are multi-billion dollar corporations, it's a terrible assumption to think they don't understand their customers.

So, while I appreciate your ridiculous accusations of me not talking to my good friends about odds, I'd also appreciate it if you didn't assume things you have no idea about.