First Ohio Casino Opening

We've tried the locals when they were "new" to us (we didn't discover them until after we had been to Vegas) and they became inviting to us as an alternative for a period of time. that kind of wore itself out over time and now we prefer to cut the number of local trips in favor of more trips to Vegas (2x per year where we went, 1x or less, before). We still go to the locals, but our bankroll for play at them over the year has been reduced by 75% from what it was originally...our Vegas bankroll is up 100%...

I wonder, with the proliferation of new casinos everywhere, two things--how will they all survive and how much real impact will it have on Vegas.

I enjoy reading these threads to hear what others think about these things...

Quote: EvenBob

This sucks even more tourist $
away from Vegas, the entire country is turning
into one giant casino.

I don't think it takes much from Vegas. As others said, it will hurt other local casinos more. It will hurt Erie and might kill Mountaineer or at least put it in the intensive-care unit. Wheeling will feel heat, though Wheeling has something resembling a metro-area to pull from. Mountaineer is more isolated and can't live off Wheeling-dealers going there on their day off. Salameca will be hurt, drive down the dilapidated road that is I-86/NY-17 and count the OH plates going by. Rivers Pittsburgh might lose a few busses as people try the new thing. MI/IN I can't speak for, but should be similar.

But Vegas? Not as much. IMHO, Vegas' current woes are partly because 1990-2005 everybody that ever wanted to visit the place visited. The mystique is gone, and will never return. People are not going to take their $500/yr gambling budget from Mountaineer and spend it in Vegas.

Vegas rested on its laurels from when it was the only place in the country. Sure Frank Sinatra could have been shooting craps in Cincinatti if he had wanted to but he headlined in Vegas. Sure if the stuffed shirts on the Cincinatti city council had voted for it, they could have had topless shows there, but it was Vegas that did it. And when most of the USA was in a Get Hitched Stay Hitched mentality, a woman could spend six weeks in Reno and get rid of an oaf. Vegas meant something in those days.

With the Taj Mahal in AC hosting a strip club soon, maybe Vegas will mean something in the future too.

Quote: EvenBob

Most people don't know that in the late 1800's,Cleveland was a mecca for millionaires.

Most of the original great fortunes developed after the civil war were in manufacturing. A few people were making money in property development in NYC. The manufacturing centers all had their millionaire rows.

In the "Mansions in the Middle of Nowhere" thread, we discussed the Vermillion mansion near Cleveland, home of the late Donald Brown (who invented the drop ceiling). While Cleveland is not in the middle of nowhere, you can still buy this unique home with 160 acres of lakefront property for $19.5 million.

Contrast that to the ex-wife of Tiger Woods who spent $12.3 million for a single acre of beachfront property in North Palm Beach. The 80 year old 9K sq foot home was just torn down. She'll spend way more than $20 million by the time she's done rebuilding. She is close enough to throw a rock into the windows of the other four mansions on her street.

Quote: FleaStiff

Vegas rested on its laurels from when it was the only place in the country. Sure Frank Sinatra could have been shooting craps in Cincinatti if he had wanted to but he headlined in Vegas. Sure if the stuffed shirts on the Cincinatti city council had voted for it, they could have had topless shows there, but it was Vegas that did it. And when most of the USA was in a Get Hitched Stay Hitched mentality, a woman could spend six weeks in Reno and get rid of an oaf. Vegas meant something in those days.

With the Taj Mahal in AC hosting a strip club soon, maybe Vegas will mean something in the future too.

Interesting. And I remember an article in the 1990s that stated Vegas was not developing a "new generation of Vegas shows." You had the Rat Pack in the 1960s, Elvis in the early 1970s, Wayne Newton forever, but what else? Sigfried and Roy came on but tragically had to give up the show. There are just fewer shows that ARE Vegas today. And the ones you have IMHO are just too big to make that connection with an audience. The Rat Pack played to 500 or so. The Golden Nugget no more than 1,000. But a 5,000 seat show? Too big to be personal. And to fill those 5,000 seats you see discounts all over the street.

The book on the boys who bought The Golden Nugget were on to something. Keep the place smaller, no more than 1,000 seats. Get acts on their way up or on their way back. Up close and personal. No $100MM stages. Don't build or book a room you cannot fill completely.

Quote: RonC

I wonder, with the proliferation of new casinos everywhere, two things--how will they all survive and how much real impact will it have on Vegas.

I think that the impact has been stronger in Reno, Lake Tahoe, Laughlin, Mesquite, Primm (formerly Stateline CA), Boulder Strip, Lake Las Vegas, and the other off-strip Nevada gaming locations. The strip casinos provide 103K jobs for Nevadans, and there are 2 million people in the state. Many of people outside of the strip were dependent on gaming as well. There is little or no reason to go to these places anymore, as they don't have the glitz, and plain old gambling is available everywhere.

I've put this table up before showing the comparison between Vegas strip gaming revenue, and the "Rest of Nevada" which includes urban Vegas that is not on the strip (as defined by the NGC). Gaming revenue from outside of the strip is at a 12 year low and keeps on decreasing.

Comment	Month	State	Strip $billions	Rest of NV
Latest reported	Oct-11	$10.63	$6.01	$4.62
Low for off-strip	Sep-11	$10.55	$5.94	$4.61
Low for the state	Jul-10	$10.28	$5.62	$4.66
Low for the strip	Oct-09	$10.38	$5.49	$4.90
Strip near $6B	Jan-09	$11.44	$6.04	$5.41
Peak of market	Oct-07	$12.97	$6.95	$6.03
Historic	Oct-04	$10.38	$5.24	$5.14
Historic	Dec-99	$9.02	$4.49	$4.53

Revenue is for the 12 months ending in the month shown. It is not for just that month.

Quote: EvenBob

\Why do you not want to be living in OH, don't you like casinos?

Love casinos, but I don't like Ohio. I'm from the Midwest and to me, Ohio is the East coast. I want to move a bit closer to my family and I hope to be doing that sometime this year. My job here, which should have been around a 1-2 year project, has turned into a great business that doesn't want me to move. But it has nothing to do with not wanting casinos.

Quote: teddys

The Cleveland casino is going to be huge. Cleveland has always been a big gambling town -- they have been a huge Vegas feeder market for a very long time and of course the Central States Teamsters Pension Fund, the Mayfield Road Mob, etc...tons of gambling ties. It will be immensely profitable, just like Detroit's casinos. ROCK ventures is Dan Gilbert's outfit, the guy behind Quicken Loans and the Cleveland Cavaliers, so he has plenty of money. They will be swimming in it.

I know the history suggests that Cleveland will be huge, and I don't doubt that it will be, especially initially. The problem is it will command too high of a price to play. Casinos get greedy when they are new and have a locked market. There will be a correction after a few months of being opened, when Erie/Mountaineer ramps up efforts to get the Cleveland customers back. It may not work; people don't like to travel to gamble if they don't have to, but it will take fringe customers who simply can't afford to play at Horseshoe.

Further, while Dan Gilbert does have a ton of money, history has shown that small casino outfits that try to play with big boys (i.e. Colony Capital) have not been successful. This will be apparent when revenue drops, but they are still forced to pay 33% in taxes to the state. Revenue will of course drop since locals will stop going if table min don't drop, or the drop in table mins will generate less revenue. ROC will bolt from the project, leaving Caesars to buy it up.

If ROC is successful and the casino is making money hand over foot (which I don't think it will) consistently for a few years, it will want to drop the partnership with Caesars in favor of keeping all the money. This will lead to a rebranding (similar to Harrah's Prairie Band in Kansas, which is now just Prairie Band). However, without the venerable Total Rewards program, they lose incentive for people to travel to the property, becoming even more of a locals joint.

Quote: AZDuffman

But Vegas? Not as much. IMHO, Vegas' current woes are partly because 1990-2005 everybody that ever wanted to visit the place visited. The mystique is gone, and will never return. People are not going to take their $500/yr gambling budget from Mountaineer and spend it in Vegas.

And frankly, while Vegas is constantly reinventing itself in terms of offerings outside of gambling, they have become the absolute worst for gambling. NOWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY HAS 6-DECK, 6:5 BLACKJACK!!! They tried it, once, at Ameristar KC. People played the game because of lower table minimums. I thought for sure this would become the standard. Those tables were gone in a few months... why? People catch on. They hear from other players not to play 6:5 BJ, so they go to the next table and play there.

I'm not implying that gamblers are smart or even that aware. But they know after a while that it does make a bit of a difference. If you get a nice rack to look at while playing, then 6:5 is fine. But Ameristar KC dealers, while proficient in dealing, are not proficient in the chest department.

But as gambling expands, players begin to realize what games are better than others. They may still play them, but if 6:5 shoe games were that profitable, all casinos across the country would offer it. Yes, I know gaming regulators can put a stop to it, but they'd turn a blind eye if the profits meant more tax dollars. As a gambler, you get to Vegas and in a place where there is SO MUCH COMPETITION, the games are usually bad to outright criminal.

Quote: AZDuffman

\There are just fewer shows that ARE Vegas today. And the ones you have IMHO are just too big to make that connection with an audience.

I totally disagree. Cirque has carved a very unique niche in the market. I think now, when people think of a Vegas Show, it's Cirque. There are even the knock offs of Cirque, like La Reve. Sure there isn't a traditional headliner that is making waves, but give it some time. One of these American Idol/X Factor/The Voice/Star Search people will hit it big there. It's just bound to happen.

Detroit has 8 DECK 6:5 BLACKJACK! Even worse than some Vegas casinos. Toledo may take back some gamblers that come to Detroit but by no means will it hurt them. Detroit revenue keeps growing month after month. The 3 casino here are jammed day and night.

Just looking at the profitability numbers reported on Friday. The smaller casinos on the strip and the boulder strip and Henderson casinos were some of the least profitable in the state.

I partly take back what I said about Reno and Laughlin. While growth is almost stopped in these places, they have managed to cut back expenses enough so that they are at least breaking even. They are not taking the huge writedowns that you see in Vegas.