Poll

8 votes (32%)
17 votes (68%)

25 members have voted

tonyv51
tonyv51
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June 26th, 2011 at 8:01:21 PM permalink
I had always suspected that some blackjack dealers cheat in the way they deal hands. I finally have confirmation from a retired BJ dealer in Las Vegas. I had noticed that some dealers, especially men with large hands, will deal the first two cards to each player in a normal fashion, but when they deal the final determining card on a large bet or large double down, all of a sudden their hands go through some contortion and the player receives a losing card. Some of these dealers are real "mechanics" and can deal the second or bottom card, which they know the value of when they shuffle the deck, to defeat a player's hand when it suits them to do so. Also part of the cheat scam are some Pit Bosses, "coolers" (casino employess posing as players to disrupt the flow of the cards, i.e. splitting tens and fives, and taking bust cards when the dealers shows a weak 4,5 or 6) and cocktail waitresses who "accidentally" distract a player with some minor detail or comment during a big bet so the player doesn't see a dirty deal. The retired dealer who confirmed all this to me said that the old mob-owned casinos required this conduct from their dealers, and although current corporate-owned casinos may not openly require it, the casinos do keep records of how much their dealers win and lose and this effects the working conditions and employabitlity of some dealers, especially as they age and become less physically attractive to the players. For all these reasons, I now avoid all BJ dealers who hand shuffle and hold cards. I will only play BJ at a table where there is an automated shuffler where the dealer has less opportunity to manipulate cards from the shoe. You may call me paraniod, but after 30 years of playing BJ and experiencing many questionable deals and distractions when I had big bets down, i just feel more at ease reducing the opportunity for BJ dealers and other casino staff to cheat me. What do you think? Do some BJ dealers cheat on the deal, or never?
ponyboy
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June 26th, 2011 at 9:12:24 PM permalink
being a magician, without a doubt casino dealers can cheat. do they? i cant say for a fact, but there def is good oppurtunity to do so. the truth is they really dont need to, but it makes money so i dont see why they wouldnt. i know roulette dealers will cheat for the casino, they been spinning th ball so long that they can just about guarantee that the ball will land on the number they want, such as zero or any empty betless number. i was gambling one time doing the double down thing and as soon as i was winning big, they switched the dealer and all of a sudden 5 zeros within 6 rolls, of course taking my money. i know they cheated because why would there have been 3 or 4 casino employees that came to the table to watch? one of which was excited and was like "WHAT IS IT WHAT IS IIIITTTT!!" and when i lost my $90 (i kept $10 to stay on top) one smirked and adjusted his collar on his jacket like a punk and walked away. lol i left stating "i still have $10 of yours!"
ponyboy
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June 26th, 2011 at 9:15:37 PM permalink
Quote: ponyboy

being a magician, without a doubt casino dealers can cheat. do they? i cant say for a fact, but there def is good oppurtunity to do so. the truth is they really dont need to, but it makes money so i dont see why they wouldnt. i know roulette dealers will cheat for the casino, they been spinning th ball so long that they can just about guarantee that the ball will land on the number they want, such as zero or any empty betless number. i was gambling one time doing the double down thing and as soon as i was winning big, they switched the dealer and all of a sudden 5 zeros within 6 rolls, of course taking my money. i know they cheated because why would there have been 3 or 4 casino employees that came to the table to watch? one of which was excited and was like "WHAT IS IT WHAT IS IIIITTTT!!" and when i lost my $90 (i kept $10 to stay on top) one smirked and adjusted his collar on his jacket like a punk and walked away. lol i left stating "i still have $10 of yours!"



i was playing with only $100, won 100 and lost 90, so i walked out with $110. i NEVER lose all my winnings money, the only way is if i lose from the beginning.
Paigowdan
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June 26th, 2011 at 10:56:29 PM permalink
Quote: tonyv51

You may call me paraniod, but after 30 years of playing BJ and experiencing many questionable deals and distractions when I had big bets down, i just feel more at ease reducing the opportunity for BJ dealers and other casino staff to cheat me. What do you think? Do some BJ dealers cheat on the deal, or never?


Tony, I will call you paranoid, not that there's anything wrong with that.
I've been dealing for years in Vegas, as part of a typical casino crew, and there never was an instance of it from ayone I knew, heard of, or "friend of a friend of a friend" heard of on any level involved in such crap. Also, there were posts here about huge winners that busted casinos and "should have been taken down or cooled off," if there ever was a need or a case.

The simple fact of the matter is that casinos nowadays don't cheat, don't need to cheat, don't sweat the money, have a reputation to maintain, and have everyone from Gaming inspectors to paranoid players riding on top of them.

The retire dealer you speak of may be a rogue, may have fantasies as to what he'd like to regale people with, or be in his own world, or expounded stories from "the good ol' days" of Mob Run Vegas of YEARS gone by when there were some ancient instances back in the jurasic period, etc.

You can have an occasional sociopath PLAYER (Richard Marcus) whould cheat and win against casinos as players, and write tell-all books.

In my propfessional gaming life, this has never been romotely as issue. Dealers and floorman supplying themselves chips for their own pockets have pop up on very rare ocasion, yes, from time to time, very rarely. But throwing games..... naah.

What happens is that out own gambling history was never as stellear as we''d like it to be, and to get some blessing for our sour grapes and grades are reassuring.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FleaStiff
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June 27th, 2011 at 2:40:17 AM permalink
Quote: ponyboy

i know roulette dealers will cheat for the casino, they been spinning th ball so long that they can just about guarantee that the ball will land on the number they want, such as zero or any empty bet-less number.

Really? Is that true? I want you to know that if I were a roulette dealer and had that skill, YOU would not be able to play at my table. There would be no seats available at all, each and everyone would be taken by my friends and relatives and the ball would never land on a bet-less number, not even once. The return I would get making people win would be much higher than some sort of pleasure derived from making people lose on behalf of my employer who ain't paying be jackxxxx to begin with since most of my pay envelope comes from tips from the players and most of them tend to tip better when they are winning than when they are losing. I can just see some young attractive and seductively clad woman wandering around the casino enjoying free drinks and winding up at a roulette table where such a capable dealer causes her to lose on behalf of his employer. Yeah Mac, happens all the time.

I did encounter about five years ago a report from a floor person in Vegas who took an impromptu girls-only trip to California during which they stopped off at a casino operated by the Santa Ynez tribe or something. There she was trying to count cards and did not want to reveal her status but saw the dealer peeking at cards he was about to deal and decided she would simply not play there any longer. I was unable to verify the validity of this report though. This was the only report of a cheating dealer that I encountered and it was at an Indian casino, not a Las Vegas one.

A cooler amidst the blackjack dealers? Someone really skilled at turning off a winning streak? Gee, I don't know. What do you think about that Cooler's co-workers? Do they know he is the cooler? Do they appreciate his "cooling" their tip packet each night? Do they know where in the employee parking lot he parks his car and which times he walks to it on a dark night? Do they have "discussions" there about his "cooling" behavior and their tip packets? I'd sure go get acquainted with that guy's knee-caps if I knew any co-worker was costing me money night after night while I stood there smiling all night long for tips. Some of those smiling female blackjack dealers who stand there night after night getting sore fingers while having their tits stared at all night long by leering drunks have boyfriends you know. You think those sore-fingered blackjack dealers wouldn't speak to their boyfriends about this guy at work what night after night costs them money and then walks out to a lonely place in the employee parking lot late at night?
odiousgambit
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June 27th, 2011 at 3:20:45 AM permalink
it's too broad the way you pose your poll and I didnt vote, since if a single dealer once in world history ever cheated it blows it all up.

Recently you have the Vietnamese gang that got into Indian casinos as dealers and did false shuffles for collaborators to cheat the casinos.

I'd say a player who complains about bad luck is has a long ways to go to prove he got cheated.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FleaStiff
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June 27th, 2011 at 4:09:20 AM permalink
Yes, it is indeed an overly broad poll question but assuming the usual fine print about such things, I would still answer it in the negative. Oh sure, there is always some stupid jerk somewhere. Big deal. Routinely, dealers do not cheat simply because they have absolutely no incentive to do so and rather considerable incentive not to cheat.

Heck, if a dealer is spotted cheating ... do you really think the casino would ever say "thats okay, son we saw you were cheating but since you were cheating on our behalf to get rid of some guy who was winning our money, we think thats okay". A dealer who will cheat in favor of the house is a dealer who will cheat in favor of the player some day and the casino will get rid of him pronto. The only thing that keeps casinos in business is that house edge and anyone who tries to nick it just a little gets booted out of the job. And it doesn't matter in whose favor they try to nick that house edge.

PS: I thought most of that Vietnamese Baccarat Playing gang simply bought a dealer's compliance rather than planting a dealer in a casino in advance.
DJTeddyBear
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June 27th, 2011 at 5:17:55 AM permalink
I didn't reply, because, if a dealer is cheating at MY table, then he's an idiot, and not really doing the house a favor.

IF a dealer is cheating for the house, (and that's a BIG "if"), I'd suspect he'd be dealing at higher limits. I mean, what's the point of stealing $25 when you can steal $1000 or more?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
FleaStiff
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June 27th, 2011 at 5:33:27 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

IF a dealer is cheating for the house, (and that's a BIG "if"), I'd suspect he'd be dealing at higher limits. I mean, what's the point of stealing $25 when you can steal $1000 or more?

Yeah. I hadn't thought of that. Can you imagine a dealer cheating at a five dollar 6:5 table? They already have a pretty good edge going for them and the bet is a lousy five dollars!! If the dealer is caught cheating at a full five dollar table, how many of those players are going to be playing there the next day? How many of their friends will ever be playing there? What about the commotion? Wouldn't it be noticed at adjacent tables? What about those players? That would be one expensive dealer for that casino!!
ponyboy
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June 27th, 2011 at 6:49:46 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Really? Is that true? I want you to know that if I were a roulette dealer and had that skill, YOU would not be able to play at my table. There would be no seats available at all, each and everyone would be taken by my friends and relatives and the ball would never land on a bet-less number, not even once



sorry to bust your bubble, but yes i would be playing your table. roulette is open to unlimited players, seats open or not. people reach thru to place bets and stand on the side lines all the time.


and yes you would be throwing betless numbers from time to time, even the dealers skill cant stop the ball from bouncing around, its just a skill that is "better then random"

and if the table was full, the house would still be winning in the long run due to not everyone would be winning, unless they all bet the same number, and in that case you would def lose your job as soon as you thru it lol.
Paigowdan
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June 27th, 2011 at 7:02:10 AM permalink
On this subject, if you take a look at the number of times that some game is attempted to be thrown, cheated, you'd find way more often than not that the player(s) - not the house - is trying to gaffe the game.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
teddys
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June 27th, 2011 at 9:13:57 AM permalink
They don't need to cheat. They already do a fine job of taking my money. (Lost $565 betting three hands of $10 last session in about an hour. Why am I treated so bad?)
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
hook3670
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June 27th, 2011 at 10:57:56 AM permalink
Believe me this is so very true. PGP the most no gimmick game, except for the commission and bonus bet, and I lost 8 straight hands!!! That is practically impossible to do in PGP even if you are purposely setting your hands wrong. Two of those eight were when I banked. So believe me casinos dont need to cheat. Also some of the dealers I encountered could barley deal the game they were on let alone trying to discretely cheat at it.
VegasVic14
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June 28th, 2011 at 6:50:45 PM permalink
Quote: ponyboy

being a magician, without a doubt casino dealers can cheat. do they? i cant say for a fact, but there def is good oppurtunity to do so. the truth is they really dont need to, but it makes money so i dont see why they wouldnt. i know roulette dealers will cheat for the casino, they been spinning th ball so long that they can just about guarantee that the ball will land on the number they want, such as zero or any empty betless number. i was gambling one time doing the double down thing and as soon as i was winning big, they switched the dealer and all of a sudden 5 zeros within 6 rolls, of course taking my money. i know they cheated because why would there have been 3 or 4 casino employees that came to the table to watch? one of which was excited and was like "WHAT IS IT WHAT IS IIIITTTT!!" and when i lost my $90 (i kept $10 to stay on top) one smirked and adjusted his collar on his jacket like a punk and walked away. lol i left stating "i still have $10 of yours!"



A dealer spins the ball in one direction...the wheel spins in another...the ball hits the frets and bounces around....and you think someone can control that? No dealer can do that despite what they tell you. If they could, a confederate of theirs would clean up.
Joseph Kulas
phxsun2001
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January 24th, 2015 at 8:55:31 AM permalink
The most common way of cheating at the BJ table by dealers is by false shuffling or loose shuffling. It is a common practice. Watch how they shuffle next time at the BJ table. Why does it help the house, very simple. The dealer collect the cards the way they were play in case there is a problem and they could show how the last round was played. The pattern of the collected cards are- high card stick together and low card stick together. It you have two 10s, you stay. If you have low cards, you kept hitting you get something. Imagine if the dealer collect all the cards and deal WITHOUT shuffling, what happen to the two 10s that was dealt to you before? No one in the next round will get those two high cards again. One player will get one and another play will get the other .

Do you remember the nights at the BJ table that you keep getting a high card and a low card and seldom get two high cards? That what happened. This is a common practice in Vegas, especially when the players are winning. This is how they shuffle- they only shuffle three time before dealing again. When they shuffle, they shuffle very loose. Another way is- instead of shuffling 1/2 the deck with 1/2 the deck, the dealer would take 1/4 of the deck and shuffle with 3/4 of the deck. In other words, holding 1/4 of the deck with one hand and 3/4 of the deck with other hand when they shuffle very loosely.

I have friends who are dealers in Vegas. They are doing it to help the casino, I was told. This is a common practice. I consider this CHEATING. Check it out yourself nest time at the two deck or 4 deck games. You'll know what I am talking about.

I only play at tables with machine shuffle to avoid this problem. Or I would watch how the deal shuffle before I sit down. I have been playing BJ for 35 years. I was serious counter at one time , but got kicked out from casinos.
mcallister3200
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January 24th, 2015 at 9:45:15 AM permalink
Phx, no offense but that is just false and it's quite uncommon. About as uncommon as the 4 deck game you refer to being found in Vegas(there is only one and it's at a truck stop) And shuffling unevenly, 1/3 of the deck into 2/3, then 2/3 into one third is a countermeasure/game protection, the standard Boyd gaming double deck shuffle, not a false shuffle. Dealer cheating is common on single deck games in low stakes grind joints in Northern Nevada, it's called preferential shuffling. Now gaming says preferential shuffling isn't cheating, but they are clearly intentional altering the odds of the game, it's almost like forcing a don't bettor in craps to pick up their line bet if the point is 4 or 10.
Venthus
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January 24th, 2015 at 9:53:22 AM permalink
Wasn't there a roulette dealer in here a year or so back that got permission to experiment on a real table when closed and manages to drop the ball into the same quadrant at about double the random rate?

I can't say if it's cheating or not, but I tend to get grouchy if the dealer changes their style of dealing or grip for no apparent reason and junk starts flying out. Sure, maybe it's just getting clubbed over the head with luck, but it's suspiciously coincidental-feeling...
Hunterhill
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January 24th, 2015 at 10:05:43 AM permalink
Quote: phxsun2001

The most common way of cheating at the BJ table by dealers is by false shuffling or loose shuffling. It is a common practice. Watch how they shuffle next time at the BJ table. Why does it help the house, very simple. The dealer collect the cards the way they were play in case there is a problem and they could show how the last round was played. The pattern of the collected cards are- high card stick together and low card stick together. It you have two 10s, you stay. If you have low cards, you kept hitting you get something. Imagine if the dealer collect all the cards and deal WITHOUT shuffling, what happen to the two 10s that was dealt to you before? No one in the next round will get those two high cards again. One player will get one and another play will get the other .

Do you remember the nights at the BJ table that you keep getting a high card and a low card and seldom get two high cards? That what happened. This is a common practice in Vegas, especially when the players are winning. This is how they shuffle- they only shuffle three time before dealing again. When they shuffle, they shuffle very loose. Another way is- instead of shuffling 1/2 the deck with 1/2 the deck, the dealer would take 1/4 of the deck and shuffle with 3/4 of the deck. In other words, holding 1/4 of the deck with one hand and 3/4 of the deck with other hand when they shuffle very loosely.

I have friends who are dealers in Vegas. They are doing it to help the casino, I was told. This is a common practice. I consider this CHEATING. Check it out yourself nest time at the two deck or 4 deck games. You'll know what I am talking about.

I only play at tables with machine shuffle to avoid this problem. Or I would watch how the deal shuffle before I sit down. I have been playing BJ for 35 years. I was serious counter at one time , but got kicked out from casinos.

This is vodoo nonsense. In the same way dealers think they can riffle thick or thin to help the players win.They are just hustling for tokes.Unless they have skills like Steve Forte or Dustin Marks how they shuffle has no effect.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
FleaStiff
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January 24th, 2015 at 10:33:20 AM permalink
Dealers want to keep their jobs. They rotate every 20 minutes and both floor and surveillance watch if anyone follows them. Shuffling is usually done according to procedures and it is done openly in plain view of players and floor persons as well as cameras. Sure during the window washing phase particularly for minibacc dealers a slug can be assembled but it seems to be rare and it does result in arrests.

If you've been losing at BJ... its likely it not because of a dealer and your not likely to reverse your luck by currying favor with a friendly dealer.
Dieter
Administrator
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January 24th, 2015 at 10:52:49 AM permalink
CBJN does mention on their reports on a few casinos that you should not play if you suspect cheating.

It's rare, but I'm sure it happens.

From my personal experience at one place, yes, there is one dealer that always seems to magically appear shortly after I sit down. Doesn't matter which table. I can't prove he's a mechanic, and I watch for second deals and I haven't caught one yet.

I still don't think the MD3 is gaffed, and I haven't caught him cheating - he's just very hard to win against.

Not every player loss is due to cheating.


I have no idea if the infidelity rate is higher among blackjack dealers than the rest of the population, but I'm sure that there's some of that cheating, too.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AcesAndEights
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January 24th, 2015 at 8:10:21 PM permalink
Quote: Venthus

Wasn't there a roulette dealer in here a year or so back that got permission to experiment on a real table when closed and manages to drop the ball into the same quadrant at about double the random rate?


Croupier's spin control experiment
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
sc15
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January 24th, 2015 at 10:16:58 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Croupier's spin control experiment



I don't believe that this is legitimate.

If it was, he could easily get a confederate to place wagers and make a fortune. And he could just alternate halves of the wheel so that the stats look right.

It would be impossible to prosecute because there's 0 admissible evidence of cheating or collusion. The ball isn't gaffed. The wheel isn't gaffed. And a long as neither party is dumb enough to admit to the scheme there's no evidence.

Unlike any other dealer collusion scam, this doesn't involve breaking any protocols. Like, to collude at blackjack, a dealer would have to expose a hole card, false shuffle, intentionally mispay, or something that leaves video evidence.
AxelWolf
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January 24th, 2015 at 11:06:34 PM permalink
There's money to be made for that roulette dealer. Simply convince 20 different guys to bankroll it for huge amounts, with the dealer getting a freeroll opportunity(50% of winnings none of the loss). Play 20 different sessions with each different backer. The Winners will be happy to give you your free cut. Convince the losers to keep going( it's just bad luck). If they eventually go broke, they can't complain to anyone since they were conspiring to cheat in the first place.

It's the same concept when DI's offer to meet and take new guys to the casinos. If you win (what do they call it? AFTERGLOW FEE, brilliant term for it)

I've heard a few cases where guys pretend to have a Roulette winning systems, but don't sell anything, they try to make some lopsided deal.

Usually the poor marks are to embarrassed to tell anyone, get laughed at, and probably would just to get suspended for PM violations.

Baccarat scammers do this as well.

With that being said, I do believe a talented roulette dealer could target half the wheel with success. I also believe a talented person can successfully clock the wheel under the right conditions.

I believe there can be biased wheels.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
sc15
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January 25th, 2015 at 12:41:32 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

There's money to be made for that roulette dealer. Simply convince 20 different guys to bankroll it for huge amounts, with the dealer getting a freeroll opportunity(50% of winnings none of the loss). Play 20 different sessions with each different backer. The Winners will be happy to give you your free cut. Convince the losers to keep going( it's just bad luck). If they eventually go broke, they can't complain to anyone since they were conspiring to cheat in the first place.

It's the same concept when DI's offer to meet and take new guys to the casinos. If you win (what do they call it? AFTERGLOW FEE, brilliant term for it)

I've heard a few cases where guys pretend to have a Roulette winning systems, but don't sell anything, they try to make some lopsided deal.

Usually the poor marks are to embarrassed to tell anyone, get laughed at, and probably would just to get suspended for PM violations.

Baccarat scammers do this as well.

With that being said, I do believe a talented roulette dealer could target half the wheel with success. I also believe a talented person can successfully clock the wheel under the right conditions.

I believe there can be biased wheels.



I believe you can target a wheel with success too, but not just some random dealer who sounds like he just decided to give this a shot because he could. If you spend 1000 hours practicing under very specific conditions you can probably do it. His whole situation sounds fishy. First off, he never specifically practiced this. He just decided one day to start spinning the ball around while his table is empty. Second, unless the dealer's allowed to spin the ball when no players at the table (I'm pretty sure they're not. Casinos are pretty sensitive about this kind of stuff), he would definitely get noticed doing it 20000 times.

Anyway, if he did the freeroll scam with people, that might get him in trouble. Because if the players who lose go and complain that some dealer scammed them he's liable to face fraud charges.
AcesAndEights
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January 26th, 2015 at 9:14:05 AM permalink
Quote: sc15

Quote: AcesAndEights

Croupier's spin control experiment



I don't believe that this is legitimate.

If it was, he could easily get a confederate to place wagers and make a fortune. And he could just alternate halves of the wheel so that the stats look right.

It would be impossible to prosecute because there's 0 admissible evidence of cheating or collusion. The ball isn't gaffed. The wheel isn't gaffed. And a long as neither party is dumb enough to admit to the scheme there's no evidence.

Unlike any other dealer collusion scam, this doesn't involve breaking any protocols. Like, to collude at blackjack, a dealer would have to expose a hole card, false shuffle, intentionally mispay, or something that leaves video evidence.


Croupier didn't want to risk losing his job by colluding; he did the experiment strictly as an academic endeavor. He used to be a regular poster here and participated in at least one meet-up in the past. I only mention these facts to point out that he has some credibility with the forum. I have not met him so I can't vouch personally that the experiment happened as described, but I believe it did.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
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