Terror attack at Orlando gay club
Quote: TankoReligion is not the leading killer throughout the ages.
Islam is.
FYI
Quote:in the Quran there's the Biblical story of Jacob asking his sons whom they'll worship after his death.
"Jacob's sons replied, 'We will worship the God of your fathers' — Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac. He is the God," Saritoprak says. "So this God that Jacob worshipped, this God that Abraham, Isaac worshipped, is the same God that Muslims worship today."
http://www.npr.org/2015/12/20/460480698/do-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god
Quote: TankoReligion is not the leading killer throughout the ages.
Islam is.
And Islam is a religion. So you're arguing that religion IS the leading killer throughout the ages, specifically Islam.
Have your discussion about religion, fine, but this thread is about terrorism and an attack on our citizens--gay ones in a lot of cases this time--and attack the issue at hand. A majority of Muslims in one survey want being gay to be illegal. How do we reconcile that with the need of some to open our borders completely? How do we ask people to assimilate into our society and become Americans, not hyphenated Americans. How do we keep nut jobs from getting guns without violating the Second Amendment?
This attack wasn't by Christians from years back...though we should never allow history of that sort to repeat itself...it was by Radical Islamic Extremists. How about we stop blaming Christians, straights, guns, etc. and work the damn issue?
Quote:As Europol, the European Union’s law-enforcement agency, noted in its report released last year, the vast majority of terror attacks in Europe were perpetrated by separatist groups. For example, in 2013, there were 152 terror attacks in Europe. Only two of them were “religiously motivated,” while 84 were predicated upon ethno-nationalist or separatist beliefs.
Are Muslims trying to catch up with the rest of the terrorists?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html
Quote: rxwineAre Muslims trying to catch up with the rest of the terrorists?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html
That article focuses on Muslim terrorism in the U.S. and Europe. The majority of terrorist attacks in the world occur in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. Not that I'm saying all of those attacks are caused by radical Islam, but that article is somewhat misleading.
Quote: TankoReligion is not the leading killer throughout the ages.
Islam is.
Easter Island was not a genocide, but an ecological catastrophe.
Christians did not kill native Americans in the name of their religion, but to take their lands, or to defend themselves against them.
Most of the native American population died off due to disease.
How many people were executed by the Christians during the Spanish Inquisition?
What the Christians did ended long ago, and it never approached anything close to the scale of the genocide committed by the Muslims.
The Muslims are still at it.
Ummm...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam ... islam is a religion.
Quote: RonCWhy all the freaking bullshit about what the leading killer of people is through the ages? Some of y'all want to divert the issue from what is going on to what happened a long time ago. The problem right now is that Islamic Radical Terrorists are killing in the name of one particular religion--the Muslim one--and not enough Muslims, in my opinion, are helping us find the ones who seek to kill all of us. This is the current issue.
Have your discussion about religion, fine, but this thread is about terrorism and an attack on our citizens--gay ones in a lot of cases this time--and attack the issue at hand. A majority of Muslims in one survey want being gay to be illegal. How do we reconcile that with the need of some to open our borders completely? How do we ask people to assimilate into our society and become Americans, not hyphenated Americans. How do we keep nut jobs from getting guns without violating the Second Amendment?
This attack wasn't by Christians from years back...though we should never allow history of that sort to repeat itself...it was by Radical Islamic Extremists. How about we stop blaming Christians, straights, guns, etc. and work the damn issue?
Ummmmmm, lets get it straight people....muslims are the followers by choice of islam....like Protestantism and other denominations follow Christianity. And Muhammad was a mortal seeking control and power as was Brigham Young of the Mormons when he found his writings in the ground....I don't even believe Jesus's story. But that's not part of the thread.
Quote: RonCWhy all the freaking bullshit about what the leading killer of people is through the ages? Some of y'all want to divert the issue from what is going on to what happened a long time ago. The problem right now is that Islamic Radical Terrorists are killing in the name of one particular religion--the Muslim one--and not enough Muslims, in my opinion, are helping us find the ones who seek to kill all of us. This is the current issue.
Have your discussion about religion, fine, but this thread is about terrorism and an attack on our citizens--gay ones in a lot of cases this time--and attack the issue at hand. A majority of Muslims in one survey want being gay to be illegal. How do we reconcile that with the need of some to open our borders completely? How do we ask people to assimilate into our society and become Americans, not hyphenated Americans. How do we keep nut jobs from getting guns without violating the Second Amendment?
This attack wasn't by Christians from years back...though we should never allow history of that sort to repeat itself...it was by Radical Islamic Extremists. How about we stop blaming Christians, straights, guns, etc. and work the damn issue?
So, here's why Christians as killers is a useful comparison.
There's a parable about living in glass houses and throwing stones. Another about the mote in someone's eye and the beam in your own. And he who is without sin casting the first stone.
Christians have, from the Crusades to yesterday, killed in the name of Christ. Not that He would appreciate the honor.
But the xenophobia towards Arab and Indian Muslims in this country goes back hundreds of years. It was even fashionable in the 70s to mock them. So they became isolated figures of fear, and feared Joe Sixpack in return. Things are still that way and worse.
Now we have a couple generations exposed to rabid hatred of us, and taught to kill (I date it to Tehran, ymmv). They have declared war on us. Not as nations or as a religion, but as factions cut from either or both. Even the vast majority of Muslims who don't buy into jihad still have little love for our culture, largely by our own doing.
There has to be a tipping point for both. It can only be reached by building enough trust that Muslims will care more about stopping relatives and close friends from killing strangers, than about their lifetime ties to those who kill. And that starts with us recognizing our hypocrisy in these matters (especially in acknowledging our radicals also kill) seeing them as individuals, and treating them with respect.
These are changes we must make in ourselves, that they can observe and react to, not changes they must make.
We worship the same God. Our religious truths have common ancestry. We all bleed red, love our mothers, and many have died in service to this country. If we build from these common points, we can defeat terrorism. If we can't then we continue to antagonize it into continuing.
Don't mistake for a moment that I'm justifying one single moment of Muslim extremism. But the question has to be, how can I change?
Quote: rxwineFYI
http://www.npr.org/2015/12/20/460480698/do-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god
I don't know why you would include that in this thread, but
FYI
There is a difference.
The God of the Bible is Knowable, a Spirit, a Father, limited by his own righteous nature. There are certain things that he cannot do.
Allah is unknowable, not a spirit, not a father, and not limited by anything. Allah can do anything at any time.
Quote: beachbumbabsChristians have, from the Crusades to yesterday, killed in the name of Christ. Not that He would appreciate the honor.
Unlike the Muslim faith which directs its followers to slaughter non-believers, the Christian faith does not direct it's followers to kill anyone.
Christians are instructed to 'turn the other cheek'.
By definition, any one who kills in the name of Christ is not a Christian.
Any muslim who kills in the name of Allah is a Muslim.
Same God you say?
Quote: sammydvUmmmmmm, lets get it straight people....muslims are the followers by choice of islam....like Protestantism and other denominations follow Christianity.
By Choice?
The penalty for leaving Islam is death.
This just in: Dozens of civilians were murdered at a Turkish airport today. I'll give you a hint it wasn't a roving gang of pesky Mormons or even *gasp* bible thumping Baptists.
Quote: TankoUnlike the Muslim faith which directs its followers to slaughter non-believers, the Christian faith does not direct it's followers to kill anyone.
Christians are instructed to 'turn the other cheek'.
By definition, any one who kills in the name of Christ is not a Christian.
Any muslim who kills in the name of Allah is a Muslim.
Same God you say?
That contention that Muslim faith directs followers to slaughter non-believers has been distorted by radical islamics over time. Islam itself makes no direct tenants like that.
Quote: TankoBy Choice?
The penalty for leaving Islam is death.
It is not. Where is this view coming from.
And yes, people can choose their religion.
And no, I am not muslim.
Quote: TankoUnlike the Muslim faith which directs its followers to slaughter non-believers
That is not in the Quran.
Quote:
Same God you say?
Yes, they are the same god. DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS of the same god.
Quote:The penalty for leaving Islam is death.
That is not in the Quran, either.
Also, as a little bonus fact, there's nothing in the Quran about Muslims getting 72 virgins, or any virgins at all, when they die.
Quote: TigerWuThat is not in the Quran.
In the venerable and honorable tradition of WoV, the posting of totally false statements, especially blankly unattributed ones, is often met with challenges.
Here is one. Others are available, as is additional chapter and verse.
The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. rop
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."
Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."
“This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10
“God’s curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God’s own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers.” Quran 2:89-2:90
“I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.” Quran 8:12
“Those that deny Our revelations We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise.” Quran 4:56
As Freethought Nation summarizes:
“About 61 percent of the contents of the Koran are found to speak ill of the unbelievers or call for their violent conquest; at best only 2.6 percent of the verses of the Koran are noted to show goodwill toward humanity. About 75 percent of Muhammad’s biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers.”
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."Quote: sammydvIt is not. Where is this view coming from. And yes, people can choose their religion. And no, I am not muslim.
Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Quote: SanchoPanzaIn the venerable and honorable tradition of WoV, the posting of totally false statements, especially blankly unattributed ones, is often met with challenges.
Here is one. Others are available, as is additional chapter and verse.
Uh-huh... Now put those verses in the context of the surrounded text and stories.
Or do we want to play the game of cherry-picking verses out of context? Because if we want to go that route, I'm pretty sure the Bible is also a goldmine of unmitigated violence, genocide, and destruction.
But you were kind enough to at least post some evidence, so I'll do the same:
http://www.justaskislam.com/32/does-islam-say-kill-the-infidels/
http://www.evolutionofgod.net/question_koran
http://www.islamforpeace.org/quran.html
http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html
I'm sure we can go back and forth posting links all day, and we're not going to change each others' minds. I agree that Radical Islam is one of the biggest problems in the world today, but cherry-picking verses is not the way to fight it, because that's exactly what the terrorists are doing: cherry-picking and twisting scripture to further their political ends. Islam is just a tool to them, and they'll force it to say whatever they want to justify their actions, just like people have done with Christianity and literally every other religion in the history of man.
Quote: SanchoPanzaQuran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Which version and when was that version rewritten and by what person. Just like the Bible, there are numerous versions of the Quran. And isn't the Koran the Hebrew book? Or is that interchangeable to whatever opinion is being made?
And there's words below that didn't exist in that time. So who wrote these verses?
"God’s curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God’s own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers.”
Can you just give it a break for a couple days?
I am looking forward to the Fourth Of July.
In the grand tradition I am going to blow some jhit up, colorful it will be, and harmless, unless I blow my arm off..
Quote: TwoFeathersATL,unless I blow my arm off..
Blowing your own arm off on the 4th of July is American tradition. (rather than some terrorist doing it for you)
Quote: beachbumbabsBut the xenophobia towards Arab and Indian Muslims in this country goes back hundreds of years. It was even fashionable in the 70s to mock them. So they became isolated figures of fear, and feared Joe Sixpack in return. Things are still that way and worse.
Talk about Blaming America First.
I was a teenager in the 70s, I missed that 'fashion'. But I recall that the universe of potential responses to being mocked did not include mass murder.
Quote:Even the vast majority of Muslims who don't buy into jihad still have little love for our culture, largely by our own doing.
Perhaps. I trust you have some poll to back that up. But the basic tenants of American culture are not secret. The killers in Orlando and San Bernardino were American citizens. Perhaps they imperfectly internalized our culture, or maybe had no interest in doing so. Whose fault is that?
You seem eager to draw equivalence between Christians and Muslims. This country has come an astonishing distance since President Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996. But the vast majority of American Christians recognize that the way to object is via the First Amendment and voting for the other guy, rather than committing mass murder in a gay bar.
Quote:These are changes we must make in ourselves, that they can observe and react to, not changes they must make.
[my bold]Quote:If we build from these common points, we can defeat terrorism. If we can't then we continue to antagonize it into continuing.
Quote:But the question has to be, how can I change?
They want to kill you, Babs, for no other reason than you are an American. I'd suggest that the flaw lies not in our American Culture, but in those who seek to change it through terror. They need to change, not us.
But maybe that's just my 70s xenophobia.
Quote: beachbumbabsNow we have a couple generations exposed to rabid hatred of us, and taught to kill (I date it to Tehran, ymmv). [/q] Which of the terrorist attacks in recent memory were committed by Iranians?
How many Iranians did the Shah kill, who was admittedly installed [by our cia] in an overthrow of the democratically elected president of Iran, Mosaddegh? Over one million. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/cia-admits-role-1953-iranian-coup
That is a major way to understand where the terror is coming from and to come up with a real strategy to counter it. Not dealing with it realistically is doomed to failure, as we have so clearly seen and experienced over the last 15 years.Quote: TigerWuCherry-picking verses is not the way to fight it, because that's exactly what the terrorists are doing: cherry-picking and twisting scripture to further their political ends. Islam is just a tool to them, and they'll force it to say whatever they want to justify their actions, just like people have done with Christianity and literally every other religion in the history of man.
Quote: TigerWuUh-huh... Now put those verses in the context of the surrounded text and stories.
For any Muslim, when there is any question as to how the laws of the Koran must be applied, they simply refer to the Hadiths.
Those who claim the verses are taken out of context, or misinterpreted, are proven wrong in the Hadiths.
They are what they are.
Mohammed's tactic was always to surround a village with his army and send an emissary to demand their surrender and conversion to Islam.
When they refused, he regarded this as fighting and resistance.
That is all it took.
He would camp overnight and attack at dawn, while most of the viillage was still asleep.
Then he would "Seek them out wherever he would find them" and slaughter any male old enough to grow pubic hair and take the rest as slaves, along with the females.
If they fought and then surrendered, he was still known to behead all the males in the population.
He did not take chances.
These so called 'Radicals' are not radical.
