Hit It Again - Roulette Progressive Side Bet

For years I've had a concept in mind for a Roulette side bet. Without knowing how to go about getting it in a casino, I didn't really think much about it. The concept really started to percolate in my head as I became more familiar with the math, and the method of getting it out there, thanks to the Wiz' sites.

I've been in contact with PaiGowDan about the patent process. For those that missed the memo, he invented EZ Pai Gow, which is starting to gain some penetration. Read more about that game, including some initial discussions about the patent process, here: www.wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/1831-ez-gai-pow-poker-needs-a-thread-of-its-own-sir. Thanks to his help, (and summary about the patent process he has in that thread and on Wiz' www.gamingmath.com site) I submitted my first draft for the provisional patent on 6/17. This past Monday, I got my approval.

For anyone interested, a provisional patent does not provide all of the protection of a normal patent. It does not include any sort of search to see if a similar patent already exists. However, it DOES provide protection in the event that someone else files a patent in the next year for the same thing. I.E. I can now talk about the invention, without worrying that someone will steal the idea. The trade off is that it's cheap: $110. Certainly a cheap enough price to gamble with…

In short, my invention is a progressive side bet for Roulette.

While waiting for the provisional to be approved, I created a website for the new invention: www.hit-it-again-roulette.com Yeah, that was the best .com name I could come up with. Although I may continue to tweak it, I think the web site is in a good enough condition to show it to a game distributor.

Of course, I welcome and invite all comments about the invention, as well as about the website.

Now a personal note to the Wiz: I've been feeling guilty and need to unload. My desire to have coffee with the Wiz is partly based on ulterior motives. I was hoping to win the Kentucky Derby giveaway he had because of this motive. The bet regarding the Riviera or Circus Circus closing first was done as a joke, but once the discussion expanded, I applied my motive to the reason I said that I'll just buy lunch and forget about the bet. In short, I'd like some one on one time to discuss my invention.

Because of the Riveria / Circus Circus bet, I owe the Wiz his meal. I'm also springing for PaiGowDan to thank him for the help he's provided.

Since I REALLY want the Wiz and PaiGowDan there, I'm kinda leaving it up to them to come up with a place and date and time. My flight to Vegas lands at 11:00am on Sun 9/19. My convention occupies Tuesday thru Thursday. I leave Saturday. If possible, I'd like to schedule a meeting with a game distributor on Friday 9/24.

So that leaves anytime after noon on 9/19 or anytime on 9/20 for the meeting/coffee/lunch/whatever.

I'd also be happy to have any of the other WoV regulars at the coffee/lunch as well, but I'm not Rockefeller. Everyone else has to foot their own bill.

Congrats on your progress so far. I think its a great idea, and I could certainly see roulette players making the $1 progressive bet on each spin.

Interesting concept, personally I'd never play it but I could see a table of people constantly playing it. One recommendation would be how to accommodate $5 players. They're not common, but I've seen a handful of people at Vegas having $5 "single" chips at a double-zero table rather than $1 and they'd be at a distinct disadvantage with the jackpot. Then again, someone betting $5 on a double-zero table might have a mental problem.

Excellent idea. Hope it takes off.
I know roulette players that would love to make that wager.
and Roulette Dealers that would try to prove they could hit a number 3-4 times in a row.
Now thats a different story.

Quote: ahiromu

Interesting concept, personally I'd never play it but I could see a table of people constantly playing it. One recommendation would be how to accommodate $5 players. They're not common, but I've seen a handful of people at Vegas having $5 "single" chips at a double-zero table rather than $1 and they'd be at a distinct disadvantage with the jackpot. Then again, someone betting $5 on a double-zero table might have a mental problem.

I think he mentions to have the game setup for a $5 demoniation in the high-limit room.

That brings up a question though....DJ, do you adjust the payout rates somehow for single zero roulette? I think that most high limit rooms are on single-zero tables, correct? Or is the fact that it would be a $5 side bet instead of $1 makeup the fact that the HA would be lower?

Another question...how does the probability of winning something...i.e. level 1/$20, compare with the frequency of payouts on other table game side bets? I think to be successful players will need to get some level of decent somewhat frequent payback, rather than just continually feeding $1 chips into the slot.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Of course, I welcome and invite all comments about the invention, as well as about the website.

This would be a great addition to Rapid Roulette. Im sure you have thought of that.

Do not be afraid to include a relative frequency and cumulative frequency table in your math section. Averages can show only part of the whole picture.
IE: JoB VP. We know the 1 in 40390 hands is the Royal average.
Yet the median is almost 27,996 hands and 1/3 of all royals happen within almost 16,376 hands

For the roulette jackpot:
The median for 1/2,085,136 is:
almost 1,445,500 spins (rounded)
and just below 845,500 spins for 33.33%.

I know the fire bet in craps, the math was all about averages in the excel worksheet that used to be available and many casinos have removed the bet because it paid out more than the averages. But not the cumulative frequencies.

This is such a cool,easy and simple side bet. Dont give up! Good Luck!

Let's play it by ear on the lunch as your trip gets closer. I should be around.

That is not a bad game idea. Games that require special electronics are a lot harder to get going. A former client of mine did an electronic side bet in roulette, which can be found at www.proaggressivegaminginnovations.com/. He did his own electronics. If you want to go that far on your own, you might see he could build the actual table. Expect it to cost some big $$$. I also suggest you read Contemporary Casino Table Game Design before getting in too deep.

Nice web site, by the way!

Quote: ruascott

I think he mentions to have the game setup for a $5 demoniation in the high-limit room.

That brings up a question though....DJ, do you adjust the payout rates somehow for single zero roulette? I think that most high limit rooms are on single-zero tables, correct? Or is the fact that it would be a $5 side bet instead of $1 makeup the fact that the HA would be lower?

Oops.

I addressed both of those in my original MS Word document (which I haven't even opened in two months), but forgot to include it on the website. I guess in the next couple days there will be a new page or two for this stuff.

The short answer is, a) In the high limit room, make it a $5 bet, and all of the payouts are five times as much. I.E. It does NOT have to have a separate progressive pool, just award five times as much.

B) All tables that participate in the same progressive pool must have the same type wheel. However, in NJ & PA (and presumably other jurisdictions), it's acceptable to use a double zero wheel on a single zero table, with a sign saying a double zero result is a no-spin type push. I suspect that it would be possible to get approval to have the double zero play for this bet only, and push for everything else.

Quote: ahiromu

Interesting concept, personally I'd never play it but I could see a table of people constantly playing it. One recommendation would be how to accommodate $5 players. They're not common, but I've seen a handful of people at Vegas having $5 "single" chips at a double-zero table rather than $1 and they'd be at a distinct disadvantage with the jackpot. Then again, someone betting $5 on a double-zero table might have a mental problem.

To be honest, I doubt that I'd play it if it wasn't my idea. Then again I don't play roulette much.

The bets themselves should be made with tokens rather than checques or roulette chips. I.E. Just like the tokens used on Let It Ride or Caribbean Stud.

Quote: 7craps

This would be a great addition to Rapid Roulette. Im sure you have thought of that.

Do not be afraid to include a relative frequency and cumulative frequency table in your math section. Averages can show only part of the whole picture.

Yeah, ShuffleMaster was the FIRST name that came to mind.

But your math suggestion? Hmmm.... I guess I gotta bust out some more Excel.



Keep the comments coming! Thanks

Quote: Wizard

That is not a bad game idea.

Thanks. That means a lot coming from you.

Quote:

Games that require special electronics are a lot harder to get going. A former client of mine did an electronic side bet in roulette, which can be found at www.proaggressivegaminginnovations.com/. He did his own electronics. If you want to go that far on your own, you might see he could build the actual table. Expect it to cost some big $$$. I also suggest you read Contemporary Casino Table Game Design before getting in too deep.

I'm hoping that the Let It Ride circle thing or Caribbean Stud drop slot thing are in the public domain, or able to be licensed cheaply. But I'm going to leave that part to the game distributor.

$$$ is gonna be an issue. Although I knew I'd have to find a money person, it didn't really occur to me that there would be a major time constraint. I've got until 6/16/11 to get the full patent. Naturally I gotta find a money person first.

Anybody here want to put up the bucks?

Quote:

Nice web site, by the way!

Thanks.

Wow, CONGRATS!

Great idea and nice web site (clean & green:).

And who said, "money can't be made on Roulette"? ;)

Keep hittin' it, again & again....

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Anybody here want to put up the bucks?

Any idea what type of investment would be needed?

Quote: ruascott

Any idea what type of investment would be needed?

Not exactly.

PaiGowDan told me how much he paid when he created EZ Pai Gow, but I'll let him post it publicly. Needless to say, it was considerably more than my normal $800 one day casino bankroll, but not so high that I thought it was outrageous.

He worked with a game distributor and said that it is the inventor's responsibility to get the patent and the math analysis. The distributor handles everything else.

Does that give you a clue how much?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Anybody here want to put up the bucks? Thanks.

Might be easier to start a company and sell shares. Spread out the risk.
I think DEQ systems ( a side bet, tracking company)started that way, and they are growing in a good way these days.

I have friends in the red hat society, ( the big 50 for women) they always want me to play roulette with them. I showed a few of them today your idea and they flipped out! In a good way that is.
One said its about time you could bet on repeating numbers to hit a jackpot!

Quote: 7craps

Might be easier to start a company and sell shares. Spread out the risk.
I think DEQ systems ( a side bet, tracking company)started that way, and they are growing in a good way these days.

I have friends in the red hat society, ( the big 50 for women) they always want me to play roulette with them. I showed a few of them today your idea and they flipped out! In a good way that is.
One said its about time you could bet on repeating numbers to hit a jackpot!

I'll buy some shares...

The way it usually works is the game inventor has to at least get the game through a field trial himself. If it does well, the companies like Shufflemaster will be more likely to take an interest. They seldom buy a cold game idea. I once wrote up my general advice for Marketing New Casino Games for more of my advice on the topic.

Quote: 7craps

I have friends in the red hat society, ( the big 50 for women) they always want me to play roulette with them. I showed a few of them today your idea and they flipped out! In a good way that is.

That's the kind of response I was hoping for. Roulette addicts would love it.
The rest of us would give it a passing yawn. And that's OK too...

Quote: 7craps

One said its about time you could bet on repeating numbers to hit a jackpot!

That exactly how I feel about the FireBet. And to a small degree, that was what originally got my wheels turning. I.E. "It's about time somebody figured out how to put a jackpot on a crapsroulette table..."

Quote: 7craps

Might be easier to start a company and sell shares. Spread out the risk.

Quote: ruascott

I'll buy some shares...

I've thought of that. I'm not ready to go there, but if I do, I'll certainly let everyone here know!

Quote: ruascott

Another question...how does the probability of winning something...i.e. level 1/$20, compare with the frequency of payouts on other table game side bets? I think to be successful players will need to get some level of decent somewhat frequent payback, rather than just continually feeding $1 chips into the slot.

On the surface, feeding $1 to win $20 an average of once in 38 spins, frankly, sucks. But this bet is nothing more that a pre-defined progression of pressing the bet - and can, on paper, exceed the table limits.

When compared to simply placing an inside bet and pressing it, an average player will do better with this side bet when it gets to Level 2. I addressed this in the Comparison section of the Standard Payout page. http://www.hit-it-again-roulette.com/std_pay.html. Scroll down to read it.

Quote: 7craps

Do not be afraid to include a relative frequency and cumulative frequency table in your math section. Averages can show only part of the whole picture.

For the roulette jackpot:
The median for 1/2,085,136 is:
almost 1,445,500 spins (rounded)
and just below 845,500 spins for 33.33%.

To be honest, I'm not sure how to calculate that sort of thing, although I'm going to research it. On the flip side, since this is nothing more that a pre-determined pressing progression, how necessary would it be? Then again, since this progression surpasses the table limit, I guess it IS necessary.

In my original MS Word document, I talk about a casino's "exposure". I have comments about the rare chance of two tables hitting it at the same time, or hitting Level 4 twice with an abnormally short gap. So, yeah, I guess I gotta work on that part. The only math I have in that section talks about splitting the coin-in pie, with a portion budgeted towards exposure.

I'm gonna put that in the new pages that I'm working on...

Quote: 7craps

I know the fire bet in craps, the math was all about averages in the excel worksheet that used to be available and many casinos have removed the bet because it paid out more than the averages. But not the cumulative frequencies.

Interesting.

When I was in Vegas last year, I was staying at the Sahara. The crappy in-room gambling video mentioned the FireBet, but it wasn't on the tables. I asked a pit boss about it and he said the FireBet was removed over a year before, primarily because it took too damn long to run the surveilance tape before paying out for 6 hits. The possibility of bad math makes more sense.

Quote: 7craps

This is such a cool,easy and simple side bet. Dont give up! Good Luck!

Thanks.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

To be honest, I'm not sure how to calculate that sort of thing, although I'm going to research it. On the flip side, since this is nothing more that a pre-determined pressing progression, how necessary would it be? Then again, since this progression surpasses the table limit, I guess it IS necessary.

In my original MS Word document, I talk about a casino's "exposure". I have comments about the rare chance of two tables hitting it at the same time, or hitting Level 4 twice with an abnormally short gap. So, yeah, I guess I gotta work on that part. The only math I have in that section talks about splitting the coin-in pie, with a portion budgeted towards exposure.

Cumulative frequencies show how often something can happen, as the royal flush and your jackpot examples I gave. Remember the median is where 50% happen above and below.

It is actually quite simple. I learned how to make these tables from the Wizards math formulas at WOO. I have 2 emergencies to attend to this afternoon so I will relax tonight and post an example table with excel formulas if you would like.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

When I was in Vegas last year, I was staying at the Sahara. The crappy in-room gambling video mentioned the FireBet, but it wasn't on the tables. I asked a pit boss about it and he said the FireBet was removed over a year before, primarily because it took too damn long to run the surveilance tape before paying out for 6 hits. The possibility of bad math makes more sense.

From talking to pit bosses that had the Fire Bet removed, they all said it hit too often on the big side. But the cumulative frequencies again will show the probabilities of short times or trials between hits. Where averages are always just long term numbers, averages can give horrible, not actual results.

A side bet very similar to this one already exists under a different name at Microgaming online casinos - check out Roulette Royale: http://www.casinoadvisor.com/microgaming-roulette-royale-game.html

There, the side bet pays (single zero table, $1 fixed bet):

1 repeat - 15
2 - 200
3 - 3000
4 - progressive jackpot

According to this website, the jackpot has only been hit twice, once at $362 K and the second time at $977 K (which corresponded to a 13% player advantage for those playing just before it was hit!):
http://www.awesomejackpots.com/microgaming/roulette-royale/

At a 1 in 1,874,161 chance of hitting, I'm not surprised its only been hit twice! Although I don't know at what amount the jackpot is reseeded after a win or what % of the $1 bet goes to the progressive, the fact that it reached $977 indicates its been played at least a few million times.

7craps -
I got your email. Thanks.

FYI: The "Contact Us" form on the website? There is no "Us", just me....at least until this takes off. Then the wife might perk up and show interest....


CardShark -
Something similar already exists? I would have been surprised if my idea was totally unique. I'll let the patent lawyer figure out if what I have is unique enough. But thanks for pointing that out. I'd rather give the lawyer as many possible duplicates as possible to check out, and find out that I can't patent it, than to patent it and find out afterwards that the patent is no good.


Gang -
Just because CardShark found something very similar does NOT mean this project is dead. On the contrary, it was expected.

So keep the comments coming!

Would you like to use this picture from my Bally's review for any promotional literature? Note that 14 hit 6 times, including 3 times in a row, and 2 times in a row.

Almost the 5 in a row for #14. The table is a double zero, there are only 3 numbers in between the 16 and 14 on the wheel! great picture.

Quote: Wizard

Would you like to use this picture...

I'm an idiot. I read that much and looked at the picture, and started thinking that it was an OK picture, but it would be better if she didn't have her handbag. I.E. She's not a real model, etc.

THEN I read the rest of your question and looked at the display.

LOL!

HELL YES, I'd like to use that photo!

Glad you like it. Be my guest!

I made a couple updates to the www.hit-it-again-roulette.com website:

The Wiz' photo is on the home page. Thanks Wiz!

The background was changed to look more like green felt. The prior background was designed to look like green brushed aluminum. That's the style I use on my other websites, in a variety of colors.

There are two new pages:

1 - A history page which is both the history/gestation of the bet, including thanking a couple people here who helped, and something of a short biography for myself.

2 - A probability and statistics page, inspired by, and using formulas provided by, 7craps. As it mentioned in the history page, 7craps actually got the formulas from somewhere on the WOO site.

Although it's a new page, I'm already thinking about getting rid of the prob & stat page, and incorporating that into the math page.

I'm still working on one more new page, something directed specifically to casino upper management, expressing what I expect to be concerns or objections, and my response.

I'm also going to be updating the two payoffs pages to calculate using the 50% probability figures.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I made a couple updates to the www.hit-it-again-roulette.com website:

1 - A history page which is both the history/gestation of the bet, including thanking a couple people here who helped, and something of a short biography for myself.

2 - A probability and statistics page, inspired by, and using formulas provided by, 7craps. As it mentioned in the history page, 7craps actually got the formulas from somewhere on the WOO site.

https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/probability/
The first question is "Are you familiar with "The Fundamental Formula of Gambling"?

It comes from the formula 1 - { (1-p)^n }. I use it for making cumulative frequency tables. Thats all. It is nothing new.
I used excel to show to myself that the Wizards formulas work. I got a kick out of doing that, and for me it helped during a learning process. For the Wizard, I'm sure that most math is too easy for him, but it is still exciting to verify that the math and formulas actually are true. and I learn something along the way!

The picture supplied by the Wizard is PERFECT!

I spelled out that formula, using my column headings:
Probability = 1 - ( ( 1 - ( 1 / 38 ^ Level ) ) ^ spins )


I also included the formula for the second chart:
Spins = LOG ( 1 - ( Probability ) ) / LOG ( 1 - ( 1 / 38 ^ Level ) )

For what it's worth, I never got far enough in math to get into logs and tangents and stuff. I accept 7craps' second formula as correct, simply because it provides what appears to be the correct inverse info of the other chart.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the probability thing, and in particular, the 50% expectation of event thing.

I understand that a casino would use the 50% expectation as a guideline when examining the profitability. Therefore, I want to add charts for the 50% expectation to the two payoffs pages.

If the 50% expectation of the Level 4 win occurs after 1,445,305.79 trials, does that mean that, at the same time, there are 38 Level 3 occurances? (Actually 37, since the 38th achieves Level 4). Or does the Law of Large Numbers return to say that Level 3 will occur about every 38^3=54,872 trials, or approx 26.34 times in those 1,445,305.79 trials?

And ditto for Level 1 and Level 2.

I made a couple more updates to the www.hit-it-again-roulette.com website:

I got rid of the Probability & Statistics page, and put that where it belongs - on the Math page.

Based on the info there, I have added a 50% payoff probability section to the two payout pages.

In an email, 7craps asked if it was permissable for a player to place a bet after the first repeat. My original thinking was that the logictics are too complicated. But upon further thought, it's not that big of a problem. The rules page has been modified slightly to allow for that type of late betting.

I will go into this in more detail on the casino notes & dealer instruction pages that I'm still working on.


But I have afew general questions:

Should I refer to them as 'Dealers' or 'Croupiers'? I read somewhere that the latter is used only in high-limit salons....

All players participating get paid the full jackpot. As a result, there is a possibility of having more players in the game than average when the progressive jackpot hits. This can result in a payout that is greater than the amount collected. However, this is a relatively small risk, and is complemented by the opposite possibility – that of having fewer players participating than average when it hits. How much of a risk is it? Is there a way to calculate or estimate it?

There was a thread a while back that talked about multiple repeats in Roulette. I was already working on this at the time, and asked if anyone had seen 4 or more repeats. There was no reply. Does that mean nobody's seen it?



FYI: As I started to work on this, I created a thread to try to get some answers witout really asking a question.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/
943-does-the-house-edge-compound-when-pressing-winning-bets/
In that thread, we started to talk about Roulette, and the number of combinations there are of two numbers, and the number of spins required to get those combinations.

The talk revolved around a single zero wheel. 37*37=1369 combinations. But in 1369 (or even 1370) you would NOT see every combination. Although there would be some duplication, the minimum number of spins on a single zero table, to see all 1369 two spin combinations is 1369+37+1=1407

Here's another link to the Excel document that explains it:
Admin note: removed link to www.djteddybear.com/stuff/roulette_1406_chart.xlshttp://www.djteddybear.com/stuff/roulette_1406_chart.xls

Quote:

There was a thread a while back that talked about multiple repeats in Roulette. I was already working on this at the time, and asked if anyone had seen 4 or more repeats. There was no reply. Does that mean nobody's seen it?

It's been a while, but I think I've seen "9" hit 4 in a row before. (For sure 3 in a row.) No one bet on it until the last hit. :+(

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I made a couple more updates to the www.hit-it-again-roulette.com website:
There was a thread a while back that talked about multiple repeats in Roulette. I was already working on this at the time, and asked if anyone had seen 4 or more repeats. There was no reply. Does that mean nobody's seen it?

DJ, yes I have seen it twice in 32 years. While 10 years dealing in casinos and teaching dealers school. Both times was on a 00 wheel and it was the 00 both times.

I have personally hit one number 3 times in a row twice (2 repeats), one while actually dealing in a casino, cant remember the first time details, but the last time was for a tour group in dealers school and I was trying to do it. 9, 9, 9, 0. The 0 is 2 pockets away from the 9. The players at the table thought the table was rigged!

But back then (in the 90s, remember last century?), some dealers could hit small sectors regularly on the deep, straight side pocket style wheels, but most casinos do not have those old style wheels any more.and I wont go any further with that.

I've added two new pages to my www.hit-it-again-roulette.com website.

Dealer and Floor Procedures is a simple guide to running the game.

Casino Advice discusses advantages, exposure, warnings, and other misc stuff.

Both of these pages are designed to show that I think I've thought about everything, including the profitability, impact, and simplicity of the bet.

I also did a spell check. MAN! There were a lot of typos!


Unless there are other ideas or comments, the only thing I plan on adding is a link for my Excel document (I have to clean it up first), and a PDF copy of my Patent application.



7craps -

Nice to hear that you've seen or heard of the rare occurrence.

The dealer's ability (or claim of ability) to hit specific sectors or numbers is discussed on my new 'casino advice' page.

What is NOT discussed, is the possibility of a dealer deliberately trying to AVOID a repeat after a relatively cheap Level 2 occurrence.

In the Wizard's review of the Four Queens, there is a photo showing 2 repeats & a 4-peat on the tracking screen. https://wizardofvegas.com/hotels/four-queens/

Not sure how to show that here...

With the exception of losing the eye candy, that might be a better photo than the one from Bally's!

Quote: Lucyjr

In the Wizard's review of the Four Queens, there is a photo showing 2 repeats & a 4-peat on the tracking screen. https://wizardofvegas.com/hotels/four-queens/

Not sure how to show that here...

Nice detective work. another roulette marquee for DJ's website.

I was at Binions a few years ago and saw 3 0s,3 00s and 2 0s (0,0,0,00,00,00,0,0- I wrote it down. I did not believe what I saw!)on the marquee all together.
I asked the dealer if those were actual results and she said she did not think so since the table was not in play the last few hours.

Im sure stranger things have happened at a roulette table!

Quote: 7craps

I was at Binions a few years ago and saw 3 0s,3 00s and 2 0s (0,0,0,00,00,00,0,0- I wrote it down. I did not believe what I saw!)on the marquee all together.

I think that was an error on the part of the optical reader. It was probably recording each outcome three times. Once in Reno I saw a board that had six numbers evidently occur twice in a row (like 3,3,12,12,7,7,25,25,32,32,5,5). A supervisor told me that it was double-recording each spin.

Quote: Doc

With the exception of losing the eye candy, that might be a better photo than the one from Bally's!

While the display itself is easier to see, the reflections towards the bottom, as well as the stuff behind it, makes it less desireable.

The photo the Wiz gave me is better because, although the display itself isn't well luminated, it shows part of the roulette table and wheel. THAT, plus the eye candy, makes it a better choice.


Oh, I'll use this new photo too, just not on the home page...

Thanks for finding that.


Other than linking Excel spreadsheets, and a PDF of the Patent application, (and slipping that new photo in somewhere), I think it's ready to be shown to investors and game distributors. Unless there are more comments about the website or the bet itself...

Any other comments?

Thanks!

I made a couple minor changes.

1 - I added that new photo. I didn't know where to put it, so I put it on the rules page. I also added photo credits to the bottom of that page.

2 - I created an Excel document for downloads. It's linked at the bottom of each page that has charts. Or you can download it here: http://www.hit-it-again-roulette.com/hit_it_again.xls

3 - In creating the Excel document, I noticed several typos in my charts on the website. Nothing major, but I fixed them as well.

I decided NOT to put the patent application PDF online.

I think I've taken it as far as I can. The next step is probably to get some independent math analysis done. (Wiz, is that your phone ringing?) After that, start shopping it out to game distributors.

Quote:

I think I've taken it as far as I can. The next step is probably to get some independent math analysis done. (Wiz, is that your phone ringing?) After that, start shopping it out to game distributors.

In reality, I didn't have his number, but sent a message thru the Contact link above. He called me and basically told me that he doesn't think that I need any more math analysis than what I've already done. At least not at this time.

I suppose if I get a distributor interested, and they want more analysis, I'll get it done at that point.

-----

I contacted a few distributors, but so far, none have responded. Then again, I'm realistic - I don't expect an immediate response. But I wonder how much of a pest I need to become?

-----

Over the weekend it occurred to me that this side bet can be run completely manually. I.E. Without electronic token sensors or drop slots. The only catch is that the casino will not be able to use the progressive option.

So I drew a sample table layout, and added a new page for this procedure: http://www.hit-it-again-roulette.com/manual_ops.html

Let me know what you think.

Any additional discussion should be made in this new thread:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/2750-hit-it-again-roulette/

Yes, I have once seen #36 hit 4 times in a row on a roulette machine in Macau (one of those where the ball is propelled by air and the punters bet using a touch screen)

Pando -

Thanks, but I have a photo of such an occurance on the website:


The photo on the left is tantilizing bezause not only did 14 hit 4 times in 5 spins, but it hit at least twice in a row at the top of the sign. Plus 16 is 4 spaces away from 14, and those two numbers hit 6 times in a row. The photo on the right shows a four in a row at the bottom.

I'm still looking for a five in a row photo...

My bet is designed so the jackpot pays the top prize when a number repeats four times in a row - i.e. when it hits FIVE times in a row.

Here's a summary: The idea is, more or less, dead.


When I was in Las Vegas in September, I presented my idea to a game distributor. I didn't disclose the outcome of that meeting for several reasons, which may become obvious as you read this. For privacy, I choose not to name any distributor.

I contacted the four main distributors in August, with some details of the idea, explaining that I will be in town in September. If they wanted a meeting, here's my schedule, etc.

One, outright told me that they were not interested.

One seemed interested, but did not want to schedule a meeting. Instead, I sent them a package. Finally, about three weeks ago, they told me they were not interested.

One seemed interested, but the person I needed to talk to was out of town the week I was there. I WAS able to arrange a one minute meeting with that person's secretary. That meeting lasted about two minutes - while standing at the reception counter of their office. Dan was with me. He did some name-dropping, and eventually, she realized who Dan was. She seemed impressed with the materials I had, and promised to have her boss call me. I never got that call. Nor did I persue it, primarily because of the results of my the meetings I DID have.

One distributor agreed to meet me, on Friday of my week in Vegas.

Prior to that meeting, I spent a lot of time with PaiGowDan. He volunteered to save me cab fare by picking me up at the airport, driving me to the meetings, driving me to the WoV lunch, etc. Thanks again Dan!

During our time alone, Dan told me that the idea is good, but not great. It needs tweaks, etc. He had said the same thing a couple times in emails and phone calls before I got to Vegas.

At the WoV lunch Monday, a similar comment was made by someone else.

On Thursday, I met with the lawyer. One of his specialties is casino game patents. He told me the same thing, and more. He told me the idea isn't unique enough. It's not patentable. I COULD trademark the name, and a distributor might still want to work with me, but there would be nothing to prevent someone else from coming up with a new name for the same idea. He was basically crushing my dream, and at the same time talking himself out of any business that could have come if he sugar-coated it. Because of that, I give him a LOT of respect. But he then gave me some great advice: Go to the meeting anyway. See what they have to say. Maybe, together, you can tweak the idea into something more unique.

So I met with the distributor on Friday. They liked my creativity, the content of the materials I gave them, and the website I created.

They also told me things I had heard all too often on this trip:
1 - It's not unique enough.
2 - It's too easy for a gambler to just bet the last number, and to have similar, or even better, results.
3 - If hit, it most likely would exceed the aggregate payout limit.
4 - Roulette is just begging for a good side-bet, but Hit It Again ain't it.

I realized Roulette needs a side bet the day I discovered the craps FireBet. In my mind, I salute the guy that figured out how to put a jackpot on a craps table. I then noticed that there are no side-bets on the Roulette tables.

For what it's worth, I realize my idea is not unique. The whole point was to offer a jackpot prize that could only be duplicated if the gambler partially presses his bet - to the point of exceeding the table limit. My $1 bet, exceeds the pressing limit on paper, at the cost of a slightly higher house edge.

The aggregate payout problem took me by surprise. At first I thought the objection was that it should be a shared prize, divided equally. I showed them the math and explained how it wouldn't work that way. It was then that they said that, although mathematically the money is in the bank, casinos put aggregates in place, just so that they don't have to let go of a lot of cash all at once.

Personally, I took that to mean that it's really just another tool that the casinos use to screw the gambler.

Anyway, although the meeting was something of a let-down, they were very encouraging. They told me to go back to the drawing board, and to come back to them when I have an idea that overcomes these problems. And they repeated what I already knew: Roulette is just begging for a good side-bet.


The wheels started turning on a concept for a different bet when I got to the airport the next day. I have since come up with what I believe is a winner, and will disclose the details later today.

I hesitated to disclose all this because I was worried that one of the smart minds here would think of my new concept before I got my preliminary patent approval. I had already discussed the new concept with the laywer. He liked it. I got my preliminary approval on Friday, and told him. It was then that he said I didn't need to wait for that. Just confirming that they got the application is good enough! Sigh...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The wheels started turning on a concept for a different bet when I got to the airport the next day. I have since come up with what I believe is a winner, and will disclose the details later today.

I hesitated to disclose all this because I was worried that one of the smart minds here would think of my new concept before I got my preliminary patent approval. I had already discussed the new concept with the laywer. He liked it. I got my preliminary approval on Friday, and told him. It was then that he said I didn't need to wait for that. Just confirming that they got the application is good enough! Sigh...

Be careful disclosing details in public unless you're sure your application covers whatever modifications might happen as a result of any discussions. That can have an impact on patentability as well as inventorship. For example, if you have a pending application and say "what do you think about my game with features X, Y, Z?" and Mr. B suggests adding feature Q -- if you didn't disclose adding feature Q but you amend your claims to include it then, as I understand it, Mr. B is legally an inventor.

That's why when I discuss proprietary games here, I do it based on issued patents, not pending applications. If my patent is issued, there's no question about either patentability or inventorship.