darkoz
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March 28th, 2015 at 6:35:39 AM permalink
With all the AP's on here, just wondering what the general AP makes a year.

Some will make a lot less obviously as their bankroll is growing but for an AP maneuver-only income (that is don't count the ten grand you made while being a hot shooter one Sunday at Craps) what do the average guys on here make?

Has AP'ing made anyone here a millionaire starting with zero to none bankroll?

And we are talking legal only maneuvers (not past-posting or capping or any other move with jail potential.)

No one has to answer that doesn't want to. Just a curiosity question. And perhaps it is forward of me to put the question here but again, no one has to answer.
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DRich
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March 28th, 2015 at 7:10:18 AM permalink
I don't think you will get genuine answers from the true Ap's. KewlJ wrote some great posts about his experiences and seems to expect around low six figures. I believe he said last year was a bad year where he was way under expected value and only had about half of his expected value.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Hunterhill
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March 28th, 2015 at 7:26:58 AM permalink
All I will say is I have never had a losing year.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Avincow
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March 28th, 2015 at 9:08:42 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I don't think you will get genuine answers from the true Ap's. KewlJ wrote some great posts about his experiences and seems to expect around low six figures. I believe he said last year was a bad year where he was way under expected value and only had about half of his expected value.



Yeah KJ is the only one I've seen with exact numbers and the stories to back it up, I think he is a good example of what an ap can make
kewlj
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March 28th, 2015 at 10:00:10 AM permalink
Note: I am a primarily a card counter. Some/many in the AP community look down on that. I say it with pride. I love blackjack and I love making a living through this elementary and legal (<-Dan) method of AP. But it is a very slim edge. AP's that engage in other, more advanced AP techniques, can play to a higher edge that will no doubt earn them significantly more money, with less effort.

Starting with a bankroll of $4300 in 2004, I have made just over 600K in 11 years through the end of 2014. When I started I had a 10 year plan with a goal of 1 million dollars. I didn't hit that, and looking back that was very unrealistic for the bankroll I started with and levels that I could play my first few years.

I like to break it down into segments based on the levels that I played.

2004-2006. Playing low red chip level ($5 minimum games), spreading $5-40, I made a TOTAL of just over $31,000. That is an average of $10,000/year and one year I don't even crack that 5 figure mark. Try living off of that. Lol.

2007-2009. Playing a little higher red chip level, spreading $10-$120 and later $15-$150. Somewhere along the way, I have lost actual figures for these 3 years. I know that 2007 was just over 30K and the other 2 were in the 40K range. so I am just going to estimate $120,000 for the three years.

2010-2014. Playing my current levels of green to mid black, I made $463,865 over 5 years. That's an average of $92,000+ per year and includes 2 down years, 2014 when I came in at $45,000 less than half expectation and 2011 ($62,050) when I was laid up for 3 months following heart surgery and complications.

At the current levels that I play, have played for the last 5 years and plan on continuing to play (not going up in level due to heat/longevity concerns), I feel comfortable projecting just about 100K per year, 80% or $80 grand from blackjack and 20% supplemental from other AP activities. That's my little niche. This is a level that is pretty well tolerated and I feel like I can play for a number of years without wearing out my welcome everywhere.

I am in the 'shearing' (vs slaughter) camp. :) I am not going to get 'rich' or retire early at this level, but it is a comfortable living for someone like me, doing something I still very much enjoy (most days).
djatc
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March 28th, 2015 at 3:36:59 PM permalink
About tree fiddy
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GWAE
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March 28th, 2015 at 4:12:45 PM permalink
You would have been better off with a poll.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
1BB
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March 28th, 2015 at 4:30:53 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

You would have been better off with a poll.



Great idea. Did you just volunteer? :-)
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
darkoz
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March 28th, 2015 at 4:55:23 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Note: I am a primarily a card counter. Some/many in the AP community look down on that. I say it with pride. I love blackjack and I love making a living through this elementary and legal (<-Dan) method of AP. But it is a very slim edge. AP's that engage in other, more advanced AP techniques, can play to a higher edge that will no doubt earn them significantly more money, with less effort.

Starting with a bankroll of $4300 in 2004, I have made just over 600K in 11 years through the end of 2014. When I started I had a 10 year plan with a goal of 1 million dollars. I didn't hit that, and looking back that was very unrealistic for the bankroll I started with and levels that I could play my first few years.

I like to break it down into segments based on the levels that I played.

2004-2006. Playing low red chip level ($5 minimum games), spreading $5-40, I made a TOTAL of just over $31,000. That is an average of $10,000/year and one year I don't even crack that 5 figure mark. Try living off of that. Lol.

2007-2009. Playing a little higher red chip level, spreading $10-$120 and later $15-$150. Somewhere along the way, I have lost actual figures for these 3 years. I know that 2007 was just over 30K and the other 2 were in the 40K range. so I am just going to estimate $120,000 for the three years.

2010-2014. Playing my current levels of green to mid black, I made $463,865 over 5 years. That's an average of $92,000+ per year and includes 2 down years, 2014 when I came in at $45,000 less than half expectation and 2011 ($62,050) when I was laid up for 3 months following heart surgery and complications.

At the current levels that I play, have played for the last 5 years and plan on continuing to play (not going up in level due to heat/longevity concerns), I feel comfortable projecting just about 100K per year, 80% or $80 grand from blackjack and 20% supplemental from other AP activities. That's my little niche. This is a level that is pretty well tolerated and I feel like I can play for a number of years without wearing out my welcome everywhere.

I am in the 'shearing' (vs slaughter) camp. :) I am not going to get 'rich' or retire early at this level, but it is a comfortable living for someone like me, doing something I still very much enjoy (most days).



Thanks, KewlJ for your great response.

I suppose if someone wants to set up a poll, that is fine although I am not sure how the best way to word the choices.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
DRich
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March 28th, 2015 at 8:09:48 PM permalink
KewlJ, thanks for the posts. As someone who has worked in the gaming field for the last 20 years I find your posts both fascinating and educational. Please keep posting as you are one of the few people here that really bring valuable information to this site.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Deck007
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March 28th, 2015 at 8:21:42 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

With all the AP's on here, just wondering what the general AP makes a year.

Some will make a lot less obviously as their bankroll is growing but for an AP maneuver-only income (that is don't count the ten grand you made while being a hot shooter one Sunday at Craps) what do the average guys on here make?

Has AP'ing made anyone here a millionaire starting with zero to none bankroll?

And we are talking legal only maneuvers (not past-posting or capping or any other move with jail potential.)

No one has to answer that doesn't want to. Just a curiosity question. And perhaps it is forward of me to put the question here but again, no one has to answer.



I don't think anybody claim to make as much money as you did, "yet I found a way to do it and I make tens of thousands of dollars a month"

KewlJ is as close to you as anybody else. He made $92K in one year and lost $120K in 3 years.

Do I have to say anything more.
Wanderer
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March 28th, 2015 at 8:23:23 PM permalink
KewlJ,

Approximately how many hours do you play per year?
zoobrew
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March 28th, 2015 at 8:27:45 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Thanks, KewlJ for your great response.

I suppose if someone wants to set up a poll, that is fine although I am not sure how the best way to word the choices.



The winner with the most honest answers would be: I claim to be an AP, but have no proof of my actual gambling income as I am also a criminal tax cheat.
darkoz
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March 28th, 2015 at 8:49:54 PM permalink
Quote: Deck007

I don't think anybody claim to make as much money as you did, "yet I found a way to do it and I make tens of thousands of dollars a month"

KewlJ is as close to you as anybody else. He made $92K in one year and lost $120K in 3 years.

Do I have to say anything more.



No, you don't need to say more. You need to read more closely.

He never stated he lost $120K in three years. He stated he earned $120k in three years.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Deck007
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March 28th, 2015 at 8:54:38 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

No, you don't need to say more. You need to read more closely.

He never stated he lost $120K in three years. He stated he earned $120k in three years.



Yes I stand corrected. Still it is nowhere close to what you claim you are making.
Hunterhill
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March 28th, 2015 at 9:53:56 PM permalink
I can't speak for Darkoz,but KewlJ did state that he makes most of his income from counting. So it's quite possible for other AP's to make more than 92k per year. I'm not putting down Kewlj at all, what he does is very hard and takes tremendous dedication.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
darkoz
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March 28th, 2015 at 10:54:26 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I can't speak for Darkoz,but KewlJ did state that he makes most of his income from counting. So it's quite possible for other AP's to make more than 92k per year. I'm not putting down Kewlj at all, what he does is very hard and takes tremendous dedication.



Honestly, I second that. I looked into card counting and found it was just way too difficult for me. I understand it, I can do it (as in the mechanics) but when it comes to speed, discreteness, and avoiding distraction, I am completely useless.

Can I count cards in the quiet of my home. Absolutely. Can I do it in a casino with staff looking at me and trying to keep my eyes glued to other peoples hands while not actually appearing like I am glued to other peoples hands and still make the bets I need? Not within my skill set.

So, yeah, I tip the hat to people like KewlJ who can manage that feat. On the other hand, it is good for card counters that most people can't do it (at least professionally). Otherwise, it would really be unavailable in gambling circles.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
kman
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March 29th, 2015 at 1:26:20 AM permalink
I made around 300k last year. It's heavily dependent on how many hours I put in and how lucky I get with scouting, but I think I'll make 200k-500k this year.

I'd say 100k-500k is the range for professional mid to high level APs. I don't consider counting cards to be a real AP play. My threshold for doing something is $200/hour. That figure doesn't take scouting into account. I do everything legal and borderline legal that I can.

I started with ~100k. I would want at least 50k to be able to make a decent living. If you have less than 50k, you'll have to pass up a lot of +EV opportunities for bankroll considerations.
sc15
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March 29th, 2015 at 2:47:10 AM permalink
I make 6 figures, but I have no proof of it since I'm a criminal tax cheat.
Deck007
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March 29th, 2015 at 3:25:13 AM permalink
Quote: kman

I made around 300k last year. It's heavily dependent on how many hours I put in and how lucky I get with scouting, but I think I'll make 200k-500k this year.

I'd say 100k-500k is the range for professional mid to high level APs. I don't consider counting cards to be a real AP play. My threshold for doing something is $200/hour. That figure doesn't take scouting into account. I do everything legal and borderline legal that I can.

I started with ~100k. I would want at least 50k to be able to make a decent living. If you have less than 50k, you'll have to pass up a lot of +EV opportunities for bankroll considerations.



First posting and making a splash.

Right $300K and $200/hour is the right ballpark for me.
Ready to quit my day job now.
Show me how to do it and my first $100K earning would go to you.
Nay, CC is too difficult and too much hard work.
Collecting $25 coupon is also not what I am looking for.
Boz
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March 29th, 2015 at 4:37:00 AM permalink
Quote: Deck007

First posting and making a splash.

Right $300K and $200/hour is the right ballpark for me.
Ready to quit my day job now.
Show me how to do it and my first $100K earning would go to you.
Nay, CC is too difficult and too much hard work.
Collecting $25 coupon is also not what I am looking for.



Yet the member did not just join today.

Is he telling the truth? It's very possible but if he is making this amount, I am sure it is not easy and he earns it through hard work and dedication. He also has the bankroll to do it as he states. And many people claim CC is too hard and too unreliable for them. The ones that can do it like KJ are few and far between.

Sure respect is earned around here with time and posts, but someone asked a question and someone answered. Why question them, just take it for what it is.
darkoz
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March 29th, 2015 at 4:59:01 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

Yet the member did not just join today.

Is he telling the truth? It's very possible but if he is making this amount, I am sure it is not easy and he earns it through hard work and dedication. He also has the bankroll to do it as he states. And many people claim CC is too hard and too unreliable for them. The ones that can do it like KJ are few and far between.

Sure respect is earned around here with time and posts, but someone asked a question and someone answered. Why question them, just take it for what it is.



Deck007 constantly rips on me for my AP claims. He doesn't believe people can make a lot of money as an AP and when I post my tales of the low AP earners, people riding busses for $25 edges, he disdains them too.

That means, he doesn't AP, doesn't believe it works and being a ploppy, is constantly losing at the casinos and wants to believe everyone else is either being caught, going broke and returning to their day job or is lying.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
kewlj
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March 29th, 2015 at 12:06:05 PM permalink
Quote: kman

I don't consider counting cards to be a real AP play.



There it is! (I referenced this in the first line of my response). Lol. For some reason this mentality is fairly widespread among the AP community. I never have really gotten it. ??? To me anyone who is playing any game legally, at an advantage, at any level is an AP. Right down to the coupon chasers.

Now of course different people have different thresholds that are worth their time and effort. That's completely understandable.

I always say so many things come down to a 'pissing contest' with so many members of this community. The "I am better than you" mentality.
speedycrap
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March 29th, 2015 at 12:37:58 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

There it is! (I referenced this in the first line of my response). Lol. For some reason this mentality is fairly widespread among the AP community. I never have really gotten it. ??? To me anyone who is playing any game legally, at an advantage, at any level is an AP. Right down to the coupon chasers.

Now of course different people have different thresholds that are worth their time and effort. That's completely understandable.

I always say so many things come down to a 'pissing contest' with so many members of this community. The "I am better than you" mentality.

If you are doing something legal and making a good living, so be it. AP or no AP.
Hunterhill
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March 29th, 2015 at 12:40:05 PM permalink
It's funny when i first learned to count I used to have a feeling of superiority over the other players. Then as I went on to other things I once again had that feeling about counters. Now as I've gotten older and hopefully wiser I don't look down on people anymore. I realize as much as I know there will always be players out there doing things that I'm not even aware or,that have more skill than I do.

It's not a contest as long as you're happy doing what you do that's all that matters.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
rxwine
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March 29th, 2015 at 1:29:53 PM permalink
Quote: kman

I made around 300k last year. It's heavily dependent on how many hours I put in and how lucky I get with scouting, but I think I'll make 200k-500k this year.

I'd say 100k-500k is the range for professional mid to high level APs. I don't consider counting cards to be a real AP play. My threshold for doing something is $200/hour. That figure doesn't take scouting into account. I do everything legal and borderline legal that I can.

I started with ~100k. I would want at least 50k to be able to make a decent living. If you have less than 50k, you'll have to pass up a lot of +EV opportunities for bankroll considerations.



$200/hour.

Isn't AP usually a small percentage of the money you invest per hour? For instance, $200 might be the 3 percent of the actual money per hour needed to get that return.

I'm a bit skeptical. Are you a high stakes poker player?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Kerkebet
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March 29th, 2015 at 2:33:21 PM permalink
Quote: speedycrap

If you are doing something legal and making a good living, so be it. AP or no AP.


Eliot's thoughts here. But morality and common sense aren't necessarily reflected in what's legal.

Quote: darkoz

He doesn't AP, doesn't believe it works and being a ploppy, is constantly losing at the casinos and wants to believe everyone else is either being caught, going broke and returning to their day job or is lying.


Even so, doesn't mean he's a "ploppy". But it is an odd argument to support the claim of not being one. Most people couldn't care less either way, who at least aren't into gambling as something applied. And, even a "ploppy" can see the empty spots at the tables where the AP's are supposed to be.
Nonsense is a very hard thing to keep up. Just ask the Wizard and company.
Hunterhill
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March 29th, 2015 at 2:39:02 PM permalink
$200 per hour is easily attainable. One of my weakest plays that I have is worth about $200-300 per hour depending on circumstances.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
AxelWolf
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March 29th, 2015 at 3:13:06 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

It's funny when i first learned to count I used to have a feeling of superiority over the other players. Then as I went on to other things I once again had that feeling about counters. Now as I've gotten older and hopefully wiser I don't look down on people anymore. I realize as much as I know there will always be players out there doing things that I'm not even aware or,that have more skill than I do.

It's not a contest as long as you're happy doing what you do that's all that matters.

+1000.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
kman
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March 29th, 2015 at 3:45:32 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

$200/hour.

Isn't AP usually a small percentage of the money you invest per hour? For instance, $200 might be the 3 percent of the actual money per hour needed to get that return.

I'm a bit skeptical. Are you a high stakes poker player?



I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking how much I bet? What my edge is? It depends on the game. Are you asking if I invest money that I don't have an edge on? Then no, typically, all the money I bet has an edge.

I can go to any local casino and very consistently find a $200/hr play. I don't play it for variance and heat considerations - mainly heat. This is not a far fetched claim.

Quote: kewlj

There it is! (I referenced this in the first line of my response). Lol. For some reason this mentality is fairly widespread among the AP community. I never have really gotten it. ??? To me anyone who is playing any game legally, at an advantage, at any level is an AP. Right down to the coupon chasers.



Quote: HunterHill

It's funny when i first learned to count I used to have a feeling of superiority over the other players. Then as I went on to other things I once again had that feeling about counters. Now as I've gotten older and hopefully wiser I don't look down on people anymore. I realize as much as I know there will always be players out there doing things that I'm not even aware or,that have more skill than I do.

It's not a contest as long as you're happy doing what you do that's all that matters.



Sure, it's a +EV play, but IMO, it shows a lack of knowledge about the profession. There's information on most of what I do online. I'm not looking down on them. TBH, I don't consider what I'm saying to be a brag. I think a professional AP should have an EV of minimum 100k/year. I know of many people who make much more than me. I consider myself mid-level.

I'm actually extremely unhappy doing this. I spend 80% of my time in casinos and casino hotels. I drive 30k miles a year scouting and that's not counting flying. When I'm staying at a casino, I'm basically working 24/7. Often, I don't sleep for 30+ hours at a time. But, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Hunterhill
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March 29th, 2015 at 3:54:54 PM permalink
Yup. I drove 37k miles last year. I spent 207 days away from home. Like you said when you're at work (in the casino ) you're basically always working.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
djatc
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March 29th, 2015 at 4:03:22 PM permalink
As far as an income level that makes you happy:

When I first started I wanted the highest +EV/hr no matter what, even at the cost of heat or difficulty but over time I've come to find I rather have something that is easy for me to replicate, low to no heat, and allows me freedom more then being tied up on a machine. Another big factor is frequency of a cycle, something mickeycrimm already wrote about. Pick high EV and low hand cycle plays and you will make money quicker and tie up less money on a meter.

Of course at times we are waking up at 6am or staying up 30+ hours on a play but it still is better than a 9-5. I set the hours I want to work on a particular play if it's very flexible, take time off to do random things, and sometimes make money without even being there if I'm taking action. I'm still waiting for my early morning phone call to say we hit a big progressive and I'm getting $20k on my action but that'll be in the future someday....

kudos to kewlj making a bulk of his living counting cards. I could never do what he does because for one I don't know how to count at the professional level, and I can't handle pressure on a table game. I'm sure he's come around to enjoying some of the perks we machine players get from his partner, and probably won't let that go :) My favorite thing in the world is to play something at a 3-5% edge and get a steak dinner afterwards.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
Asswhoopermcdaddy
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March 29th, 2015 at 4:14:41 PM permalink
KMAN,

What games do you play to generate that kind of AP income? The only true methods I can think of are sports betting, card counting blackjack, keno, and poker. If those aren't part of your repertoire what are you defining as AP action? I can't imagine hopping around the country to sign up for every single players card promo.
kewlj
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March 29th, 2015 at 6:25:38 PM permalink
Quote: kman


I'm actually extremely unhappy doing this. I spend 80% of my time in casinos and casino hotels. I drive 30k miles a year scouting and that's not counting flying. When I'm staying at a casino, I'm basically working 24/7. Often, I don't sleep for 30+ hours at a time. But, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.



Oh boy. This paragraph speaks volumes, kman, especially those first 6 words. I wouldn't wish this, even with your 300k on anyone. :(
You end with a series of $. It may be a cliché, but still rings so true....."money can't buy happiness". Life is too short my friend...find happiness.
darkoz
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March 29th, 2015 at 8:04:02 PM permalink
Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

KMAN,

What games do you play to generate that kind of AP income? The only true methods I can think of are sports betting, card counting blackjack, keno, and poker. If those aren't part of your repertoire what are you defining as AP action? I can't imagine hopping around the country to sign up for every single players card promo.



I can't speak for Kman but I make somewhere in the neighborhood (less than his claims but not too far off) and my AP maneuver has nothing to do with any of the above.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
TomG
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March 31st, 2015 at 12:01:29 AM permalink
Moved to Las Vegas in summer 2009, best year was $9200 in 2012, followed by $7700 in 2014. All other years have been $2000 - $5000.

Except for an occasional blackjack game I used to only like to play with a 10% edge or better, which severely limited how much I could make, but losing years were virtually impossible. Now that my other careers are doing much better I don't see myself being bothered by bigger losses, so may do a lot more in sports and see how that goes. Only up about $1000 this year, but my hourly earnings are far better than they ever have been
sc15
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March 31st, 2015 at 12:39:10 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

Moved to Las Vegas in summer 2009, best year was $9200 in 2012, followed by $7700 in 2014. All other years have been $2000 - $5000.

Except for an occasional blackjack game I used to only like to play with a 10% edge or better, which severely limited how much I could make, but losing years were virtually impossible. Now that my other careers are doing much better I don't see myself being bothered by bigger losses, so may do a lot more in sports and see how that goes. Only up about $1000 this year, but my hourly earnings are far better than they ever have been



Yeah, losing is virtually impossible if you never play, lol.

Wanting a 10% edge is highly unrealistic. Even a blackjack hole card game where you have perfect information doesn't get you 10% once you take into account discretionary play.
TomG
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March 31st, 2015 at 1:31:08 AM permalink
Quote: sc15

Yeah, losing is virtually impossible if you never play, lol.

Wanting a 10% edge is highly unrealistic. Even a blackjack hole card game where you have perfect information doesn't get you 10% once you take into account discretionary play.



Match play and free-ace coupons are each a 50% edge. You can play often, but not long.

February was earning minimum of $16.50 in free-play for every $500 through the machines (ended up with $75 free-play and two buffet comps on the $2000 maximum). I guess that really isn't close to 10% (more like 2%), but it's tough to lose much on that playing 25-cent machines. Doesn't take too much time and the free-play that comes in the mail adds a little bit

Sports is much harder to quantify, but there have been some in the past that were very nice. There is a reason run-line and total baseball parlays had $20 limits before disappearing all together
RS
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March 31st, 2015 at 2:33:46 AM permalink
I swear I thought I responded to this thread like 5 times -- heh, I guess not? I got pretty loaded the other night, I guess it's good I didn't post here. :)


Anyway, for most of 2014 I was part of a team. Strictly based on my play, I ended up being down about $10K. But, I also did a lot of VP coin in plays and hit a few bad shoes (well, several) as a BP in blackjack. But from the team (my investment), after all was said and done, I ended up being up like $5K I think. Anyway, glad the team thing ended when it did.

For 2015, according to my records, I am down $6.75 for the entire year. :( Part of that is variance as well as getting offers that weren't as good as I was supposed to get. Two plays in particular, it was the last day for me to do the big coin-in play, and I didn't have much time left, so I had to play a higher denom -- and I got crushed. Then I got the mail for those plays, and they were less than half of what I expected. Some offers I haven't been able to redeem, since they either never showed up in the mail, or the person who was supposed to get them didn't see them (or just said "Hah, casino stuff, I'll just throw this away!!!"). But I still got a good chunk of free-play coming, like $5K or so.

But, I'm not full-time AP. Still definitely learning and working on figuring out how some of these places work. And of course, thankful to those who have helped me out -- either learning little tricks here and there.....or actually getting involved and playing with others.
1BB
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March 31st, 2015 at 4:04:08 AM permalink
A yearly income figure doesn't tell us much without specifics. I'd be more interested in an hourly average. Do you put in 500 hours and make $5,000 dollars or do you put in 100 hours and make $50,000 dollars? The trick here is getting an accurate hourly figure and not everyone is going to use the same formula. Some count scouting and travel, others count play only.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
kewlj
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March 31st, 2015 at 9:29:15 AM permalink
Quote: RS

I swear I thought I responded to this thread like 5 times -- heh, I guess not? I got pretty loaded the other night, I guess it's good I didn't post here. :)



Oh, I don't know.....I don't think anyone can get into too much trouble posting drunk, can they? (where is that eye-roll emoticon? Oh wrong site)
RS
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March 31st, 2015 at 1:34:39 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Oh, I don't know.....I don't think anyone can get into too much trouble posting drunk, can they? (where is that eye-roll emoticon? Oh wrong site)



:very_drunk:
Zcore13
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March 31st, 2015 at 3:28:20 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

A yearly income figure doesn't tell us much without specifics. I'd be more interested in an hourly average. Do you put in 500 hours and make $5,000 dollars or do you put in 100 hours and make $50,000 dollars? The trick here is getting an accurate hourly figure and not everyone is going to use the same formula. Some count scouting and travel, others count play only.



Also, what about gas, wear and tear on the car, fights, hotels, meals, etc. Most higher level AP's don't use a players card, so free rooms and food might not be an option?

As an Insurance Agent at the end of my career I made $100,000+ ($200,000 before expenses )after expenses and worked 25 hours a week. That's good money. Give me that and make me work 80 hours a week and there's no way it's worth it if there are other options.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
TomG
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March 31st, 2015 at 5:00:11 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

A yearly income figure doesn't tell us much without specifics. I'd be more interested in an hourly average. Do you put in 500 hours and make $5,000 dollars or do you put in 100 hours and make $50,000 dollars? The trick here is getting an accurate hourly figure and not everyone is going to use the same formula. Some count scouting and travel, others count play only.



There's also the stress level. Some people enjoy gambling even when they are losing $10 to $20 per hour. A hobby where I can relax and enjoy it that also earns a profit seems like a good deal, even if it's usually $5 per hour (or sometimes EV is even $0 per hour, but get a meal or movie ticket out of it)
AceTwo
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April 2nd, 2015 at 8:46:09 AM permalink
These days I do not play much because of lack of time and opportunity and better things to do.
I was never a Full Time AP but back in the day (several years ago) I was a serious Weekend Warrior.
I would play around 500 hours a year with win of around $100 p.h.. ie around $50k per year. That's an average over several years.
I am not from the US and most of the Win was from outside the US but also I would usually do 1 trip per year to Vegas.
The EV came primarily from BJ and primariy from Counting. But also Tracking, Promotions, Rebates, other forms of Cash Comps and even Currency Exchange Gains (different casinos in the same area would use slighly different exchange rates for exchanging local currency to Usd and Eur).

If I would have gone full time Pro at that time I could easily make $100k and more probably at the range of $150k-$200k per year. But beyond $200k a year I think it would be quite difficult.
At that time I would not play anything with EV of less than $50 p.h., the average was around $100 p.h. and the maximum I would finf would be around $200 p.h. Beyond the $200 p.h. it was very difficult to find either because of hitting Maximums (small casinos that I played outside the US) or the heat would be too much and I would not last long.

The poster that says that he can do around $300k per year as Full time Pro and doing other things than Counting, I find that it is possible but quite hard work.

And the bottom line is that people that can do $300k per year as Full time Pro, have the brains and the capacity to do other things in life with similar if not better financial results which is the option that I have chosen.
AP is the only job in the world that you lose your job when you become too good at it (ie banned from casino). That's the main benefit of chosing a different career over AP.
1BB
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April 2nd, 2015 at 11:14:46 AM permalink
Quote: AceTwo

These days I do not play much because of lack of time and opportunity and better things to do.
I was never a Full Time AP but back in the day (several years ago) I was a serious Weekend Warrior.
I would play around 500 hours a year with win of around $100 p.h.. ie around $50k per year. That's an average over several years.
I am not from the US and most of the Win was from outside the US but also I would usually do 1 trip per year to Vegas.
The EV came primarily from BJ and primariy from Counting. But also Tracking, Promotions, Rebates, other forms of Cash Comps and even Currency Exchange Gains (different casinos in the same area would use slighly different exchange rates for exchanging local currency to Usd and Eur).

If I would have gone full time Pro at that time I could easily make $100k and more probably at the range of $150k-$200k per year. But beyond $200k a year I think it would be quite difficult.
At that time I would not play anything with EV of less than $50 p.h., the average was around $100 p.h. and the maximum I would finf would be around $200 p.h. Beyond the $200 p.h. it was very difficult to find either because of hitting Maximums (small casinos that I played outside the US) or the heat would be too much and I would not last long.

The poster that says that he can do around $300k per year as Full time Pro and doing other things than Counting, I find that it is possible but quite hard work.

And the bottom line is that people that can do $300k per year as Full time Pro, have the brains and the capacity to do other things in life with similar if not better financial results which is the option that I have chosen.
AP is the only job in the world that you lose your job when you become too good at it (ie banned from casino). That's the main benefit of chosing a different career over AP.



Very nice! I hope every aspiring AP reads your last paragraph and gives it some very serious thought.

I hate to be that "back in the day" guy but back in the day the candy stores were everywhere. It's now a distant memory as we constantly change, adjust and adapt, just as the casinos do. Great post!
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
darkoz
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April 2nd, 2015 at 11:49:25 AM permalink
Quote: AceTwo

These days I do not play much because of lack of time and opportunity and better things to do.
I was never a Full Time AP but back in the day (several years ago) I was a serious Weekend Warrior.
I would play around 500 hours a year with win of around $100 p.h.. ie around $50k per year. That's an average over several years.
I am not from the US and most of the Win was from outside the US but also I would usually do 1 trip per year to Vegas.
The EV came primarily from BJ and primariy from Counting. But also Tracking, Promotions, Rebates, other forms of Cash Comps and even Currency Exchange Gains (different casinos in the same area would use slighly different exchange rates for exchanging local currency to Usd and Eur).

If I would have gone full time Pro at that time I could easily make $100k and more probably at the range of $150k-$200k per year. But beyond $200k a year I think it would be quite difficult.
At that time I would not play anything with EV of less than $50 p.h., the average was around $100 p.h. and the maximum I would finf would be around $200 p.h. Beyond the $200 p.h. it was very difficult to find either because of hitting Maximums (small casinos that I played outside the US) or the heat would be too much and I would not last long.

The poster that says that he can do around $300k per year as Full time Pro and doing other things than Counting, I find that it is possible but quite hard work.

And the bottom line is that people that can do $300k per year as Full time Pro, have the brains and the capacity to do other things in life with similar if not better financial results which is the option that I have chosen.
AP is the only job in the world that you lose your job when you become too good at it (ie banned from casino). That's the main benefit of chosing a different career over AP.



I disagree with your last paragraph (except for the part about having brains and capacity).

When I began AP'ing, I was unable to find work, sleeping on the subway. Walked into a casino with two pennies (literally) in my pocket.

Now I make a living more than most people and certainly more than anyone I personally know. Does that make me have the brains to do other things just as profitable besides AP work? Yes. Does it give me the capacity? No.

Unfortunately, most people need someone to make a hiring decision for them. This world is just too filled with hiring people who don't want to take chances, who hire on instinct more than credentials. And, of course, the question is what credentials does an AP have?

I have no credentials as a lawyer. I am not a financial business background. I have no training as an architect. Knowing I can AP, I should now enroll in business school or law school and spend many years trying to get to the same place I already am at financially? Not for me.

As for losing your job (being banned) I don't see it that way. An AP's job is to keep under the radar. If he is banned, he didn't do his job the best he could. I equate it more with the spy business or undercover police work. Being the best spy means not getting caught. If the enemy catches you, I wouldn't say the spy got fired (and there he can actually be killed).

Casino's are the enemy, not the employer. AP work is a self-employed business, which makes it attractive and to some extent very secure. Because I am not firing myself. If an enemy action is taken by the casinos, I move onto the next casino or figure out other alternatives like disguises.

I can never lose my job until I fire myself.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Kerkebet
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April 2nd, 2015 at 12:10:45 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

It's now a distant memory as we constantly change, adjust and adapt, just as the casinos do.


Nowadays, they throw you out the front door. You may keep your teeth; and your arms to use the internet to reminisce about those "good old days". Secret moderators, and all.



Add on: Guys like mc had to be tough.
Nonsense is a very hard thing to keep up. Just ask the Wizard and company.
Zcore13
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April 2nd, 2015 at 1:38:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz



Casino's are the enemy, not the employer. AP work is a self-employed business, which makes it attractive and to some extent very secure. Because I am not firing myself. If an enemy action is taken by the casinos, I move onto the next casino or figure out other alternatives like disguises.

I can never lose my job until I fire myself.



Why is the Casino the enemy? Do they do something wrong to you? Have you been discriminated against or abused?

I've had multiple jobs in my life where there were competitors and other companies that would have loved for me not to do well, but they were not my enemies. Just part of the job.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Kerkebet
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April 2nd, 2015 at 4:49:36 PM permalink
Quote: kman

I'm actually extremely unhappy doing this. I spend 80% of my time in casinos and casino hotels. I drive 30k miles a year scouting and that's not counting flying. When I'm staying at a casino, I'm basically working 24/7. Often, I don't sleep for 30+ hours at a time. But, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.


Not unexpected, as this article points out, at http://www.financial-spread-betting.com/Becoming-a-professional-gambler.html . It's rare to hear "the rest of the story", however. The last place you're ever going to hear it is over the internet. Eg, poker players are quick to point out their yearly winnings, but not their losses and simple expenses; and there is, I would expect, a lot of collusion among the regulars. People cheat at $30 Eucher tournaments. I wonder that there aren't more big winners, by luck then, who unwittingly go on to attribute it to being an AP. As Matusow more or less exclaimed, "You have to put something away, because every great player will eventually go broke again at the tables." (Actually, you have to find the occasional big game of rich drunks or suckers, and wait for the "nuts". Have fun doing that, they are out there, but so are a lot of others looking to fleece them.)

And, the only real AP's are the ones creating their own new plays and hyping that in the player literature - or casino-countermeasures seminars - conspicuously and forever outing themselves. The remainder few seem to be trying to buy themselves very expensive coffins. It's not the lack of AP's out there, it's that the casinos should be filled to the rafters with such were it all so enjoyably easy, and risk free overall. Where there anything remotely significant about such, business schools would pop up, instead of a handful of such authors, and random persons online over the years. It just never stands up to any actual scrutiny. Sure, a few rules and devices were changed in some of the gambles, but that says more for how easy it was to skirt any profitable AP methods than for what the AP's did to the world. Meaningless gambles to boot. Nonsense.

Should be a Gamblers' Anonymous for AP's as well. Perhaps, more so than for the people who get whacked outright, and learn the lesson early. People get in over their heads in rumor and glitz... little boys in a man's world.
Nonsense is a very hard thing to keep up. Just ask the Wizard and company.
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