card counter sues planet hollywood
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/card-counter-sues-planet-hollywood-over-detention-confiscated-casino-chips
Quote: 1BBHow much will he get? Six figures? Maybe between $100k and $200k?
With the fact that they did nothing other than demand his ID wrongfully, claim he was counting (which is legal) then handcuff and hold him for taking a picture, oh my that seems like a pretty solid case... I would think he'll get 6 figures, especially with a great attorney =).
See now I'm torn lol. Pro's an experienced players always say when you get heat to just leave and not worry about cashing out. But at the same time if this will result in a 6 figure settlement, then by golly why not give them the opportunity to do something stupid/illegal to you.
I really wish this would blow up and get a ton more media attention. There's really no difference than if this happened in a casino or a 7-11. Say he paid with a $100 for a candy bar and the cashier owned him money back... then for no reason the cashier demands his ID, which he can rightfully refuse to provide. Then the cashier handcuffs him, holds him in the backroom, and calls the police. Replace casino with convenient store and suddenly this becomes a very serious violation of human rights! These damn casino's don't write the laws and they aren't above them. I'd LOVE to see a judge make an example of them and award millions to him.
Edit: This is also just STUPID management by the casino. I mean, how much money were you trying to save ID'ing a guy whom was probably playing $50/hand? If he's a real pro they're just one shop in his rotation and don't get anywhere near his undivided play. So how much damage was he really going to do to them? Their court costs at this point are already going to match that, let alone when they LOSE for doing ILLEGAL things. What a moronic business decision.
I could be wrong (perhaps a lawyer here can clarify, also NV may be different), but if you refuse to Prove your identity for win it is then subject to forfeiture or at least seizure until ID is confirmed.
People who look under 35 are subject to be IDd by the casino for age security. He should have just done the right thing and shown his ID instead of making a scene. I don't understand what he is trying to prove...
Quote: GandlerRequesting ID for cash out is allowed and pretty standard if you are young ( article says he is 28). I don't understand why he just didn't show ID to avoid the shenagagins...
I could be wrong (perhaps a lawyer here can clarify, also NV may be different), but if you refuse to Prove your identity for win it is then subject to forfeiture or at least seizure until ID is confirmed.
People who look under 35 are subject to be IDd by the casino for age security. He should have just done the right thing and shown his ID instead of making a scene. I don't understand what he is trying to prove...
If they thought he was under age they should have id him when he was playing.
He did the right thing to not show id but he should not have cashed out Unless this was his intention to get a lawsuit.
Quote: HunterhillIf they thought he was under age they should have id him when he was playing.
He did the right thing to not show id but he should not have cashed out Unless this was his intention to get a lawsuit.
its pretty standard, and in some states even required to demand ID for people under 35 for certain transactions.
I am young (younger than him) and I always get IDd on cash out, again it's normal, and likely required, if not by that state law then by casino policy...
don't think they can get a legal trespass without I.d. it's clearly NOT an age thing. It is allowed to ask for I.d. at the cage the same way I'm allowed to ask you for your I.d. But you'd look at me crazy if a civilian asks. But if the cage asked for it they'd probably be provided with social sec number by 50% or more of patrons.Quote: GandlerRequesting ID for cash out is allowed and pretty standard if you are young ( article says he is 28). I don't understand why he just didn't show ID to avoid the shenagagins...
I could be wrong (perhaps a lawyer here can clarify, also NV may be different), but if you refuse to Prove your identity for win it is then subject to forfeiture or at least seizure until ID is confirmed.
People who look under 35 are subject to be IDd by the casino for age security. He should have just done the right thing and shown his ID instead of making a scene. I don't understand what he is trying to prove...
Quote: mcallister3200don't think they can get a legal trespass without I.d. it's clearly NOT an age thing. It is allowed to ask for I.d. at the cage the same way I'm allowed to ask you for your I.d. But you'd look at me crazy if a civilian asks. But if the cage asked for it they'd probably be provided with social sec number by 50% or more of patrons.
How is that a fair analogy?
The cage is not the same as a Radom person asking for your id.
They can and sometimes have to (as per either law or casino policy) check id of certain customers. Young customers in some states is routine.
He is 28 and in some states falls into the required to check category, so it clearly is an age thing. I get my Id checked almost every time I cash out of, its a cashier I don't know. I never fuss or even think about it, it's their job, and a standard thing to ensure integrity of casino operations.
Quote: rdw4potusDoesn't the casino use ID at cashout to help track daily totals for federal reporting requirements? When I played a lot back in MN, they always asked for ID (or a players card) to track the daily total cashout and ensure their compliance for CTR purposes.
In this case it was fairly evident that they were ID'ing him to get his information so they could attempt to trespass him. Anything under $10,000 isn't subject to a CTR, and thus doesn't require an ID/information. I think that's casino policy, but not law, that they ask for your ID though. If you're an 80 year old whom walks in, plays, refused to get a players card, they couldn't stop you from cashing out. You have a contract when you bet with them and they accepted your action. You then have the right to cash your chips out.
Quote: Gandlerits pretty standard, and in some states even required to demand ID for people under 35 for certain transactions.
I am young (younger than him) and I always get IDd on cash out, again it's normal, and likely required, if not by that state law then by casino policy...
I'm about the same age, and when I shave I can easily pull off 21-22. I've NEVER once been ID'd (at the cage) in the TONS of casino's I've played in for the past 8 years all around the country.
They have a right to ID you when you come to the gaming floor, and again at the table. They can't hold your money when they ask for ID at the cage because it is exactly that, your money. To my semi-educated guess I would say they have to cash his chips out, especially from the example above. I'm not 100% sure on how this interacts with customers whom look 'younger than 35' though. IF such a law/rule existed that they could do that, I would still believe they could not KEEP your chips though. That's theft.
Quote: RomesI'm about the same age, and when I shave I can easily pull off 21-22. I've NEVER once been ID'd in the TONS of casino's I've played in for the past 8 years all around the country.
They have a right to ID you when you come to the gaming floor, and again at the table. They can't hold your money when they ask for ID at the cage because it is exactly that, your money. To my semi-educated guess I would say they have the right not to cash the chips if you don't show ID, but I don't believe it's within their bounds at all to KEEP them from you. That's theft.
I sometimes get ID on the floor (usually not anymore since I use a players card everywhere now, but used to). But I almost always get IDd at the cashier.
But I am pretty sure they can. I know there are a few NV lawyers on here so I am sure one will clarify how that state works as far as holding chips to wait for ID...
But also remember all we know is what Miller (the card counter) claims. the casino is not commenting until after the lawsuit ends. We only know one side. And, he clearly does not like CET.
it's not the same thing. They have the same right to ask though, but can't require. It often is casino policy for checking players card/identification over X amount or cer denom chips, doesnt mean it is legally required or that they have the right to withhold the chips. They clearly use the age thing as an excuse when trying to demand I.d. from younger advantage players. They can, will, and have asked for I.d. from 60-70 year old men when going for a trespass, they just aren't going to use the age excuse/lie.Quote: GandlerHow is that a fair analogy?
The cage is not the same as a Radom person asking for your id.
They can and sometimes have to (as per either law or casino policy) check id of certain customers. Young customers in some states is routine.
He is 28 and in some states falls into the required to check category, so it clearly is an age thing. I get my Id checked almost every time I cash out of, its a cashier I don't know. I never fuss or even think about it, it's their job, and a standard thing to ensure integrity of casino operations.
Quote: mcallister3200it's not the same thing. They have the same right to ask though, but can't require. It often is casino policy for checking players card/identification over X amount or cer denom chips, doesnt mean it is legally required or that they have the right to withhold the chips. They clearly use the age thing as an excuse when trying to demand I.d. from younger advantage players. They can, will, and have asked for I.d. from 60-70 year old men when going for a trespass, they just aren't going to use the age excuse/lie.
100% correct.
The clerk at 7-11 isn't a random person asking for my ID, it's an employee of the private property company... So when I buy a candy bar and he asks for my ID, can he refuse to give me my change/money back if I refuse to show it?
Quote: Romes100% correct.
The clerk at 7-11 isn't a random person asking for my ID, it's an employee of the private property company... So when I buy a candy bar and he asks for my ID, can he refuse to give me my change/money back if I refuse to show it?
If you were purchasing cigarettes or booze or lotto yes....
Quote: GandlerIf you were purchasing cigarettes or booze or lotto yes....
Too bad in this scenario that's not the case. He was simply exchanging casino currency for US dollars.
Also, the clerk could refuse to sell me what I'm trying to buy, but he doesn't have the right to keep the $100 bill I gave him to pay for it! He would hand my money back to me and say "get out of here or I'll call the cops."
Quote: RomesIn this case it was fairly evident that they were ID'ing him to get his information so they could attempt to trespass him. Anything under $10,000 isn't subject to a CTR, and thus doesn't require an ID/information. I think that's casino policy, but not law, that they ask for your ID though. If you're an 80 year old whom walks in, plays, refused to get a players card, they couldn't stop you from cashing out. You have a contract when you bet with them and they accepted your action. You then have the right to cash your chips out.
I'm about the same age, and when I shave I can easily pull off 21-22. I've NEVER once been ID'd in the TONS of casino's I've played in for the past 8 years all around the country.
They have a right to ID you when you come to the gaming floor, and again at the table. They can't hold your money when they ask for ID at the cage because it is exactly that, your money. To my semi-educated guess I would say they have to cash his chips out, especially from the example above. I'm not 100% sure on how this interacts with customers whom look 'younger than 35' though. IF such a law/rule existed that they could do that, I would still believe they could not KEEP your chips though. That's theft.
Romes, you probably don't look as young as Gandler and I look. When I went to Vegas I got carded 90% of the time when I sat down at the table and 50% of the time when I cashed out. Hell, I even got carded when I ordered water from the bar! The first time it happened to me, I thought the bartender was joking
I have never been carded so many times, except in Vegas. Usually I show my card at the door anywhere else in the country and that is the end of it.
Quote: AvincowRomes, you probably don't look as young as Gandler and I look. When I went to Vegas I got carded 90% of the time when I say down at the table and 50% of the time when I cashed out. Hell, I even got carded when I ordered water from the bar! The first time it happened to me, I thought the bartender was joking. I was laughing and making fun of the request for about 30 seconds until I realized he was dead serious and wasn't going to give me water until I showed my card.
I haves never been carded so many times, except in Vegas. Usually I show my card at the door, and that is the only time I am carded.
That doesn't have to do with looking young (at least not entirely)...
1) I look very young when I shave.
2) When I was actually 21 and went to vegas my first few times, I NEVER got ID'd anywhere, for anything, because they didn't care as much back then. They obviously got a ton of fines/etc because when I go to vegas now, nearly a decade later, I get ID'd going from table to table that are right next to each other.
I thought it was in context but I could see how it could be taken differently... I was referring to I've NEVER been ID'd once at a casino cage, which is the truth.
I get ID'd all over the place; on entry, sitting down, by the floor, ordering non-alcoholic drinks, at the cage... about the only place that I haven't gotten ID'd was picking up voucher'd drinks at a bar. And once, at Silverton, I was surrounded by security and told to leave because it was a 21+ area.
My getting carded at the cage is probably mostly due to the amount/denoms, but I was also told on a few occasions that it was explicitly for age verification.
Quote: Venthus
My getting carded at the cage is probably mostly due to the amount/denoms, but I was also told on a few occasions that it was explicitly for age verification.
Its likely both. Depending what you mean by large amounts, if its over 10k in a single transaction they have to for reporting purposes. But they also have to verify your age if you are young.
Quote: sc15I'm 27 and I've cashed out 50K in flags without them asking for ID. They just need a player's card for the CTRC.
That's because your PC already has all the info scanned from your ID...
If this guy was using a PC it would not be an issue, but he wasn't and refused to show it at cage.
Quote: RomesAnything under $10,000 isn't subject to a CTR, and thus doesn't require an ID/information.
$10k/day. They're required to aggregate the transactions.
IMO, any transaction over $3k is reasonable to request ID on, so they don't get burned if someone does it 4 times and they fail to submit the CTR.
Quote: Dieter$10k/day. They're required to aggregate the transactions.
IMO, any transaction over $3k is reasonable to request ID on, so they don't get burned if someone does it 4 times and they fail to submit the CTR.
I've stated many times on this forum that I was a cashier at a Caesars casino. This was 8-10 years ago. However, we were instructed to request ID for any transactions over $2,500. This was done precisely for the reason stated above to keep track of a customers running cash out total. Chips, coupons, slot tickets, cashing checks, and credit card advances were all tracked and a CTR ( I think it was called CTR) was filled out by a manager once the cumulative total went over $10k... I definitely refused to cash in chips if a player would not show ID, but I have never confiscated or seen anyone else confiscate chips
Quote: AvincowHell, I even got carded when I ordered water from the bar! The first time it happened to me, I thought the bartender was joking
I have never been carded so many times, except in Vegas. Usually I show my card at the door anywhere else in the country and that is the end of it.
I got carded at the Casino Royale Outback at 33 for ordering a water in Sept. 2013, g/f was with me and just turned 29 at the time and also ordered water. Bartender said anyone under 21 in Nevada is not allowed to even sit at a bar even when not buying alcohol. I was shocked as well.
Also have been getting carded in Vegas/Tunica more lately than say 2011. One day I was running so hot last year that I got asked for ID at Sam's Town Tunica while wearing a Sam's Town Tunica T-Shirt...
It's a bit "nice" to be carded like this now...but I feel bad for the 21-year olds today, I got carded 9 times in 3 days in 2001 when I was 21 in Vegas. If I was 21 now, I probably would up that to 30 or 50.
Quote: GandlerIf you were purchasing cigarettes or booze or lotto yes....
Seriously? So the clerk can keep your money because you were trying to buy booze underage?
Sorry, that's considered theft. Now he is breaking the law.
As for why he went up to the cashier, if he is in Vegas from New Jersey he probably doesn't know anyone who can cash out his chips later. Once I knew a casino was looking to trespass me, I would want my money returned.
Skipping the cashier is only really good for players with team members or who live nearby and can return a month or two later.
Quote: darkozSeriously? So the clerk can keep your money because you were trying to buy booze underage?
Sorry, that's considered theft. Now he is breaking the law.
As for why he went up to the cashier, if he is in Vegas from New Jersey he probably doesn't know anyone who can cash out his chips later. Once I knew a casino was looking to trespass me, I would want my money returned.
Skipping the cashier is only really good for players with team members or who live nearby and can return a month or two later.
He obviously had a beef with CET. He knew they didn't like him. And he didn't like them.
He chose to knowingly go into their casino, play, and cash out. He then refused to show the cashier his ID and made a scene. I don't feel bad for him...
There are many other casinos he could have gone to if he feels so abused by CET in past experiences as he claims....
Why would he go to Vegas where there are endless amounts of casino options and choose a casino he has a beef with? he obviously had something to prove.
Quote: GandlerHe obviously had a beef with CET. He knew they didn't like him. And he didn't like them.
He chose to knowingly go into their casino, play, and cash out. He then refused to show the cashier his ID and made a scene. I don't feel bad for him...
There are many other casinos he could have gone to if he feels so abused by CET in past experiences as he claims....
Why would he go to Vegas where there are endless amounts of casino options and choose a casino he has a beef with? he obviously had something to prove.
I agree with you that he probably had something to prove by choosing a casino he did have beef with.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if this was done to obtain a lawsuit specifically with Robert Nersessian. I was 86'd from a casino on the East Coast and when I contacted him, he relayed to me that he only handled cases in Vegas. This would be a perfect way to get the top lawyer in the field after having been 86'd from the East Coast arms of Total Rewards.
That said, if he has something to prove, there is nothing wrong with that and I give him kudos. If the casinos are going to break the law, then you have every right to sue if they show their hand.
It was the very backbone of many civil rights cases in the 60's. Sitting in a white's only restaurant asking to be arrested wasn't the right thing to do because the people put themselves in that position? Of course not. They were standing up for their rights.
Quote: darkozI agree with you that he probably had something to prove by choosing a casino he did have beef with.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if this was done to obtain a lawsuit specifically with Robert Nersessian. I was 86'd from a casino on the East Coast and when I contacted him, he relayed to me that he only handled cases in Vegas. This would be a perfect way to get the top lawyer in the field after having been 86'd from the East Coast arms of Total Rewards.
That said, if he has something to prove, there is nothing wrong with that and I give him kudos. If the casinos are going to break the law, then you have every right to sue if they show their hand.
It was the very backbone of many civil rights cases in the 60's. Sitting in a white's only restaurant asking to be arrested wasn't the right thing to do because the people put themselves in that position? Of course not. They were standing up for their rights.
How did they break the law?
Like I said we only know his side of the story since CET holds comments until after trial. But even with his obviously biased side, I don't think CET did anything wrong.
He cashed out 5k, he is 28, likely looks young. They asked for ID (they had 2 legitimate reasons to), he said no, they said he needed ID or had to leave. He refused to leave so security took action.
I get ID checked every time I cash out. Its hardly a hassle to take 2 secs handing over my ID or player card... Again I am curious if a NV law expert will comment on this as to ID law in NV, but they likely can if not have to...
Don't compare this to a Civil Rights case... Casinos have every right to kick out counters and cheaters. CET is a private company. If he doesn't like them don't go to them, simple as that. He obviously is trying to cause trouble. There is everything wrong with going into a casino with an intent to sue them.
Quote: GandlerHow did they break the law?
Like I said we only know his side of the story since CET holds comments until after trial. But even with his obviously biased side, I don't think CET did anything wrong.
He cashed out 5k, he is 28, likely looks young. They asked for ID (they had 2 legitimate reasons to), he said no, they said he needed ID or had to leave. He refused to leave so security took action.
I get ID checked every time I cash out. Its hardly a hassle to take 2 secs handing over my ID or player card... Again I am curious if a NV law expert will comment on this as to ID law in NV, but they likely can if not have to...
Don't compare this to a Civil Rights case... Casinos have every right to kick out counters and cheaters. CET is a private company. If he doesn't like them don't go to them, simple as that. He obviously is trying to cause trouble. There is everything wrong with going into a casino with an intent to sue them.
I don't have time to go back and forth about the law.
They confiscated his chips. That alone is theft.
I posted a link in a new thread to Robert Nersessian's "Beat the Players". He spells out much about what is legal including listing many Nevada gambling statutes.
Sorry, but what they did was illegal by Nevada law. Read the book.
"As required by federal regulations, every casino must file a “Suspicious Activity Report for Casinos” (“SARC” or Treasury Form TD F 90-22.49) for every transaction or group of related transactions totaling $5,000 or more, when the casino knows, suspects, or has reason to suspect that the transaction: "
"4. Identification Issues A patron may provide false identification or information, or give conflicting identification information on different days, or refuse to provide his or her social security number when asked"
The full reg downloadable is in the above link.
He was cashing out just under 5k. He certainly had over 5k of total transactions for the day. CET did what they did for the integrity of their gaming operation. He was trying to cause a scene and cheat the system and got busted...
Quote: GandlerHow did they break the law?
Like I said we only know his side of the story since CET holds comments until after trial. But even with his obviously biased side, I don't think CET did anything wrong.
He cashed out 5k, he is 28, likely looks young. They asked for ID (they had 2 legitimate reasons to), he said no, they said he needed ID or had to leave. He refused to leave so security took action.
I get ID checked every time I cash out. Its hardly a hassle to take 2 secs handing over my ID or player card... Again I am curious if a NV law expert will comment on this as to ID law in NV, but they likely can if not have to...
Don't compare this to a Civil Rights case... Casinos have every right to kick out counters and cheaters. CET is a private company. If he doesn't like them don't go to them, simple as that. He obviously is trying to cause trouble. There is everything wrong with going into a casino with an intent to sue them.
Re-read the article, because just about everything you're saying is absolutely incorrect.
He was acquitted of disorderly conduct. He likely got arrested/charged for disorderly conduct (in NJ) because they can't bar card-counters. But maybe he was actually acting disorderly. But the point is, he was acquitted on that.
More importantly, he actually did (try to) leave Planet Hollywood.
Quote:According to the lawsuit, the officer then told Miller to leave or face charges for trespassing. As Miller began to depart, he stopped to take a picture of his chips.
Miller then “was grabbed and handcuffed by Planet Hollywood personnel,” the lawsuit alleges.
Casino employees summoned Las Vegas police, who then initiated a criminal case against Miller, according to the lawsuit. The criminal case ended in Miller’s favor, the document states, but he has yet to get his money back.
The lawsuit’s claims include theft, false imprisonment, defamation, battery and malicious prosecution. Miller suffered cuts and bruises when he was detained, according to the document.
According to the New Jersey lawsuit, Miller also was assaulted and detained in July 2013 at Harrah’s Atlantic City and in November 2013 at the Showboat in Atlantic City. Both times, Miller was charged with disorderly conduct, but the charges later were withdrawn.
Long story short:
- You don't have to show ID
- They can refuse to cash your chips if you don't provide ID
BUT
- They cannot (legally) take your chips without cashing them.
- They cannot (legally) arrest you if you're trying to leave (assuming you haven't done any other crime, and in this case, no crime [by Miller] was commited).
I don't think Bob Nesersian takes iffy cases. I think he only takes cases if there's a strong case.
Unless there is a huge amount of information being withheld, Miller should most definitely win the lawsuit and get quite a bit of money.
PS: Casino management doesn't always do stuff the smartest way. Just look at the casinos who are scared of card-counters and are cutting half a shoe out of play. Look at the Zender model, and look at the actual average casino model. Casino management constantly fails repeatedly.
Quote: RSRe-read the article, because just about everything you're saying is absolutely incorrect.
He was acquitted of disorderly conduct. He likely got arrested/charged for disorderly conduct (in NJ) because they can't bar card-counters. But maybe he was actually acting disorderly. But the point is, he was acquitted on that.
More importantly, he actually did (try to) leave Planet Hollywood.Quote:According to the lawsuit, the officer then told Miller to leave or face charges for trespassing. As Miller began to depart, he stopped to take a picture of his chips.
Miller then “was grabbed and handcuffed by Planet Hollywood personnel,” the lawsuit alleges.
Casino employees summoned Las Vegas police, who then initiated a criminal case against Miller, according to the lawsuit. The criminal case ended in Miller’s favor, the document states, but he has yet to get his money back.
The lawsuit’s claims include theft, false imprisonment, defamation, battery and malicious prosecution. Miller suffered cuts and bruises when he was detained, according to the document.
According to the New Jersey lawsuit, Miller also was assaulted and detained in July 2013 at Harrah’s Atlantic City and in November 2013 at the Showboat in Atlantic City. Both times, Miller was charged with disorderly conduct, but the charges later were withdrawn.
I have read the article. The article is the side of Miller. CET does not comment until after the trial. I am sure the security footage will come out in trial and we will see if he was really "trying to leave". I bet more likely standing there yelling at manager...
Gandler are you a casino employee?
Quote: HunterhillSo if he was yelling at the pit manager you think this gives the casino the right to handcuff and detain him.Oh and steal his chips.
They "stole" he chips because he refused to present ID for close to 5K.
Like I said I find it highly unlikely he was "trying to leave" he was likely causing a scene.
As I said the footage will come out in time and we will all learn the truth about this supposed "victim"...
Do you really think he was "walking away" and the casino ordered an army of security guards to chase him and bind him?
Or do you think he was yelling (likely threats) at the cashiers and bosses so they had security cuff him and call police?
Quote: HunterhillSo if he was yelling at the pit manager you think this gives the casino the right to handcuff and detain him.Oh and steal his chips.
Gandler are you a casino employee?
Gandler, there are threads on this very forum about Harrah's in AC beating people up for as little provocation as an argument over a malfunctioning room key. And there is plenty of video evidence online in those cases. The casinos are constantly breaking the law.
Quote: RSRe-read the article, because just about everything you're saying is absolutely incorrect.
He was acquitted of disorderly conduct. He likely got arrested/charged for disorderly conduct (in NJ) because they can't bar card-counters. But maybe he was actually acting disorderly. But the point is, he was acquitted on that.
More importantly, he actually did (try to) leave Planet Hollywood.Quote:According to the lawsuit, the officer then told Miller to leave or face charges for trespassing. As Miller began to depart, he stopped to take a picture of his chips.
Miller then “was grabbed and handcuffed by Planet Hollywood personnel,” the lawsuit alleges.
Casino employees summoned Las Vegas police, who then initiated a criminal case against Miller, according to the lawsuit. The criminal case ended in Miller’s favor, the document states, but he has yet to get his money back.
The lawsuit’s claims include theft, false imprisonment, defamation, battery and malicious prosecution. Miller suffered cuts and bruises when he was detained, according to the document.
According to the New Jersey lawsuit, Miller also was assaulted and detained in July 2013 at Harrah’s Atlantic City and in November 2013 at the Showboat in Atlantic City. Both times, Miller was charged with disorderly conduct, but the charges later were withdrawn.
Long story short:
- You don't have to show ID
- They can refuse to cash your chips if you don't provide ID
BUT
- They cannot (legally) take your chips without cashing them.
- They cannot (legally) arrest you if you're trying to leave (assuming you haven't done any other crime, and in this case, no crime [by Miller] was commited).
I don't think Bob Nesersian takes iffy cases. I think he only takes cases if there's a strong case.
Unless there is a huge amount of information being withheld, Miller should most definitely win the lawsuit and get quite a bit of money.
There is a huge amount of info being withheld.
I hope you do realize that couple paragraph article is all from one man's claims.
We do not have comments from CET or from witnesseses. We do not have security footage.
We literally have the claims of one man, and its a man who makes a living as an AP, and everyone is assuming he is being 100% open....
Quote: darkozGandler, there are threads on this very forum about Harrah's in AC beating people up for as little provocation as an argument over a malfunctioning room key. And there is plenty of video evidence online in those cases. The casinos are constantly breaking the law.
So if somebody has broken the law in the past they should always assumed to be wrong in the future?
By that logic I would be curious to know the criminal record of Miller.
Also, that room key incident is not cut and dry as you make it sound.
Quote: GandlerThey "stole" he chips because he refused to present ID for close to 5K.
Yes, they stole his chips. Doesn't matter if he showed ID or not, they can't just take his chips.
Quote: GandlerSo if somebody has broken the law in the past they should always assumed to be wrong in the future?
By that logic I would be curious to know the criminal record of Miller.
Also, that room key incident is not cut and dry as you make it sound.
Actually that logic is used quite often in most court trials.
It is called showing a pattern of behavior. Don't think that if you are accused of a crime, that you can argue past convictions are inadmissible because it doesn't prove you did anything wrong in this case.
Quote: darkozForgetting all the issues of whether the casino had rights about ID, are you seriously suggesting that a casino has the right to confiscate thousands of dollars from you?
They do have the not just right but requirement to ID him with 5k cash out, I posted the reg earlier. (not to mention he is 28, another very valid reason besides to money to check...) Here it is again:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=casino%20cages%20check%20id&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFYQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americangaming.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fuploads%2Fdocs%2Ffactsheets%2Fsarc_policy_6.pdf&ei=C2awVNrxLoPxaq6MgPgH&usg=AFQjCNHrVi-GIBfoceRHhjXYRncWrhXgOw
As for confiscation. I don't know NV laws. Perhaps a lawyer can clarify. But morally speaking, yes, if they feel it is illegal and he refuses to show ID they should confiscate it in my view.
Look, he was obviously trying to cause trouble. He knew this, and refused ID on purpose to make a lawsuit. Its beyond obvious to me... He is planning the ultimate AP of turning 5k chips into several hundred k.... Look at his history with them and his position. This should be so obvious to everybody...
Quote: Gandler
Look, he was obviously trying to cause trouble. He knew this, and refused ID on purpose to make a lawsuit. Its beyond obvious to me... He is planning the ultimate AP of turning 5k chips into several hundred k.... Look at his history with them and his position. This should be so obvious to everybody...
And the casino was dumb enough to take the bait.
He deserves his settlement.
All the casino had to do was call gaming like they're supposed to and they wouldn't be facing a lawsuit.
Quote: Beardgoatwe were instructed to request ID for any transactions over $2,500.
...also a reasonable number.
As for what should have happened...
- The cage should not have confiscated the chips. If they refused to cash them, they should have returned them.
- Miller should have shown ID when requested, due to the significant cash transaction and potential reporting requirements.
There are other things that maybe should have happened - like coming back to cash out after a shift change, and cashing out a smaller amount (but not structuring).
Realistically, anyone who is playing that kind of stakes needs to be prepared for SARs and CTRs. Start to be prepared at $1000, not annoyed that you're under $10,000 and getting ID'd.
Quote: Gandler
As for confiscation. I don't know NV laws. Perhaps a lawyer can clarify. But morally speaking, yes, if they feel it is illegal and he refuses to show ID they should confiscate it in my view.
Well, lucky for us the laws of the United States forbid this and you are completely wrong.
No company has the right to confiscate your money because you don't want to show them (a private company) your ID.
Next time you go to a nightclub and they ask for ID, why don't you just refuse and empty your pockets and give all your cash to the bouncer.
