U.S./Canadian Exchange Rate
Before I was old enough to gamble, I know guys that made some serious money doing this in Nevada casinos and it lead to successful AP careers.Quote: DnalorailedAt what Point if ever would the exchange rate itself become profitable for a U.S. Gambler in a Canadian casino? Today $1US=$1.13 CDN. And sold back $20CDN for $17US. Would someone please do the math on this? Thanks
Quote: AxelWolfBefore I was old enough to gamble, I know guys that made some serious money doing this in Nevada casinos and it lead to successful AP careers.
They go to Canada or Mexico? Or were they using foreign currency?
They ran Canadian money here in NV casinos, It was before my time and I don't remember all the details they explained.Quote: DnalorailedThey go to Canada or Mexico? Or were they using foreign currency?
Perhaps Mike or others know the exact details.
The gist of what I think I can remember.... Someone correct me if it doesn't make sense and I'm wrong(next time I talk to a few of the guys, Ill get the details). They went to Canada, bought large sums of canadian money, went to places like Reno, used the canadian money somehow. I assume they bought in for a few hundred in dollar tokens at a time. Then they would receive extra tokens, perhaps $20 per $100 (maybe they had to cycle them though slots once for cover). I thought I heard numbers of $300 to $700 a day.
I reserve the right to not know WTF im talking about on this.
I do know.... they used Canadian currency in nevada casinos, and made some decent money.
They USED to give you a receipt for money exchanges at Caesars Windsor so saying you traded in $400 US for $452 Can you could buy back that $400 US for $452 within a 24 hr period... not sure if they offer that anymore
On the other hand I laughed pretty hard at the money exchange place in either Vancouver or Las Vegas airport that was charing just shy of 24 cents on the dollar last Thursday
This would definitely help out the police. They could upgrade to thisQuote: onenickelmiraclepretty sure some casinos have stopped doing the exchange for free,which seemed stupid until you here this arbitrage. Passports are needed to go to Canada now, so I'm not going there anyways.
Quote: DnalorailedAt what Point if ever would the exchange rate itself become profitable for a U.S. Gambler in a Canadian casino? Today $1US=$1.13 CDN. And sold back $20CDN for $17US. Would someone please do the math on this? Thanks
I don't get how it would be profitable? Exchange rates are on a bid/ask so you lose a little bit each time you exchange. The house edge on the games stays the same.
At the point when buyers & sellers are drunk, on crack, don't know or don't care, or for some reason are not engaged in a voluntary marketplace transaction.Quote: DnalorailedAt what Point if ever would the exchange rate itself become profitable for a U.S. Gambler in a Canadian casino?
@(1USD=1.13CDN), 20*(1USD=1.13CDN) = (20USD=22.60CDN)Quote: DnalorailedToday $1US=$1.13 CDN. And sold back $20CDN for $17US. Would someone please do the math on this? Thanks
@(20CDN=17USD), 20/17=1.176, 2.6/1.176=2.21,
therefore [17USD+2.60CDN]=[17USD+(2.6CDN/1.176)]=[17USD+2.21USD] = $19.21USD
I was not a math major, but $19.21 < $20.00 in any language.
You lose, and thank-you for playing.
Exactly.Quote: AZDuffmanExchange rates are on a bid/ask so you lose a little bit each time you exchange.
I'll speculate, with nothing but a raw guess, that maybe whatever Axel heard involved something like some casinos exchanging "at par" 1:1 either as a promo and/or for convenience at some time when the actual market rate was close to that, or possibly a long time ago (pre-Nixon administration) when currency exchange was at fixed rates to each other and to gold imposed by government decree (known as the Bretton Woods system) rather than actual market.
Quote: AZDuffman
Exchange rates are on a bid/ask you lose a little bit each time you exchange.
Quote:Exactly.
Actually to illustrate a few years back I went to one of the Niagara Falls casinos on the Canadian side. Exchange rate was hovering at par at the time. So whatever, I ask for $100 at the Bill Breaker which also does exchange there. I have to put in around $105. Play a while and end up a small amount. Take my $105 or so to the cage and ask for greenbacks (which the cashier didn't even understand but the supervisor thought was cool) and I get back $100 or so from my $105!
Of course I had been getting clipped at the border for years, but being near par made it so much more noticeable.
I do remember hearing that when the casino first opened there they had some kind of a good exchange rate promo, but to take advantage you would need to live very near the border. This was pre-9/11 when crossing the border was easier than getting into a Strip nightclub.
I do not know if they track you via passports, but the hassle alone is not worth it. If you did it daily sooner or later customs will have a chat with you wondering what you are up to. Finallly, IIRC the money involved would be nice extra cash for a guy in college but a grown man has better hustles to hustle.
But only about 1/1.176 as goofy or cool as referring to your fundamental unit of currency as the "Loonie."Quote: AZDuffmangreenbacks (which the cashier didn't even understand but the supervisor thought was cool)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loonie
It is not uncommon for bars/restaurants/events to periodically offer deals titled "Canadian at Par", where you can use Canadian money as if it was American money. So your $5 beer now really only costs you $4. It is of course a way to attract Canadian customers, but if you were going there anyway you might as well use Canadian cash. I always have a few hundred dollars in Canadian cash in a drawer at home....
Quote: DrawingDeadAt the point when buyers & sellers are drunk, on crack, don't know or don't care, or for some reason are not engaged in a voluntary marketplace transaction.@(1USD=1.13CDN), 20*(1USD=1.13CDN) = (20USD=22.60CDN)
@(20CDN=17USD), 20/17=1.176, 2.6/1.176=2.21,
therefore [17USD+2.60CDN]=[17USD+(2.6CDN/1.176)]=[17USD+2.21USD] = $19.21USD
I was not a math major, but $19.21 < $20.00 in any language.
You lose, and thank-you for playing.
Exactly.
I'll speculate, with nothing but a raw guess, that maybe whatever Axel heard involved something like some casinos exchanging "at par" 1:1 either as a promo and/or for convenience at some time when the actual market rate was close to that, or possibly a long time ago (pre-Nixon administration) when currency exchange was at fixed rates to each other and to gold imposed by government decree (known as the Bretton Woods system) rather than actual market.
"DrawingDead]At the point when buyers & sellers are drunk, on crack, don't know or don't care, or for some reason are not engaged in a voluntary marketplace transaction"
Was this an attempt at humor?
"You lose, and thank-you for playing."
Again?
I like to come here to engage in serious discussion not to be put down or insulted. To quote me and say that kind of stuff is uncool. Can we act like adults here? Or should I be childish too and ask the moderators to chime in?
Let me try again. Buying and selling of currency is a marketplace, and a highly liquid one with people on both sides of it who are engaged in the profession of doing so. If buyers and sellers are minimally competent and aware of what they are doing with no extraneous motive involved one will net no more than the value of the money you started with less transaction costs for a net loss, which will be small from an efficient transaction or larger from an inefficient one. Unless you are planning to sit on the cash for a significant time as a means of speculation on a particular sustained directional move (a poor way to do so which I wouldn't recommend) it is the same as changing a twenty to ones, ones to quarters, quarters to pennies, pennies back to dollars & back to twenties, or into chips and back to cash, as much as you wish. It is what it is. That's what it is. Movement in the rate for buying also moves it for selling and doesn't change that.
If you find something different you've got a promo like the one mentioned in the post above, similar to a "cash your payroll/retirement check here!" promotional gimmick for reasons that have nothing to do with any magic hidden in the arithmetic of changing currency back and forth. I've done quite a bit of overseas travel, and that's just that. You don't make money on changing currency; if you do well you avoid losing much from those performing the service for you.
Quote: onenickelmiraclepretty sure some casinos have stopped doing the exchange for free,which seemed stupid until you here this arbitrage. Passports are needed to go to Canada now, so I'm not going there anyways.
passports are not needed to get into canada, they are needed to get back into the states.
If you are changing money here in Niagara falls casino's, do it on the u.s. side, they only juice you once whereas in Canada they juice both sides of the transaction.
Quote: AxelWolfBefore I was old enough to gamble, I know guys that made some serious money doing this in Nevada casinos and it lead to successful AP careers.
Tuna Lund was involved with the Canadian money exchange in the Reno casinos. I think they were taking advantage of favorable exchange rates offered by the casinos. Of course this was back in the eighties when Canadian money was only worth about 65% of American money.
I went up or down the Alaska Highway eleven times starting in 1977. Back then Canadian money was about 67% of American money. Businesses along the highway, truck stops, gas stations, hotels, etc., had big signs up offering 40% as a way to pull you in. I'm sure the Reno casinos did the same thing.
The last time I dealt with Canadian money was at the International in Blaine, Washington on the Canadian border. This was about 1999. They had an Omaha game there and the players were all Canadian so the game was played with Canadian money. I got $130 in chips for an American hundred dollar bill.
About ten years ago I heard that some people were working the Canadian exchange rate at the Indian casinos just north of Spokane, Washington.
Quote: DrawingDeadSorry you were offended Dnalorailed, and choose to see something personal in it. It was a statement of the obvious, and included the simple arithmetic of the transaction. If you believe it to be inappropriate, please do report it to moderators and see if they find it to be that. I won't be offended if you do.
Let me try again. Buying and selling of currency is a marketplace, and a highly liquid one with people on both sides of it who are engaged in the profession of doing so. If buyers and sellers are minimally competent and aware of what they are doing with no extraneous motive involved one will net no more than the value of the money you started with less transaction costs for a net loss, which will be small from an efficient transaction or larger from an inefficient one. Unless you are planning to sit on the cash for a significant time as a means of speculation on a particular sustained directional move (a poor way to do so which I wouldn't recommend) it is the same as changing a twenty to ones, ones to quarters, quarters to pennies, pennies back to dollars & back to twenties, or into chips and back to cash, as much as you wish. It is what it is. That's what it is. Movement in the rate for buying also moves it for selling and doesn't change that.
If you find something different you've got a promo like the one mentioned in the post above, similar to a "cash your payroll/retirement check here!" promotional gimmick for reasons that have nothing to do with any magic hidden in the arithmetic of changing currency back and forth. I've done quite a bit of overseas travel, and that's just that. You don't make money on changing currency; if you do well you avoid losing much from those performing the service for you.
Thanks. Maybe my original post was not clear enough. I was not asking about buying and selling currency itself for the sake of doing so. I could go to forex for example to do that if I wanted to. The responses I have read pertaining to promos and places/rates favorable for exchange in the casino world were more what i was looking for. And in fact, I have learned some things in those posts. Indeed I did ask for a math workout and you provided that.
I did take offense, ahiromu to the "crackheads...you lose" sarcastic comments and would have welcomed your amused response to my comment.
1.04 * $19.21 = $19.98 (rounded up to nearest penny)
Quote: ontariodealerpassports are not needed to get into canada, they are needed to get back into the states.
If you are changing money here in Niagara falls casino's, do it on the u.s. side, they only juice you once whereas in Canada they juice both sides of the transaction.
Know before you go, either a passport or enhanced drivers license is needed to cross. When you go to Canada they will ask for a passport, at least at the Rainbow Bridge. This has been procedure for several years now.
I have heard of people with a DUI being persona non grata in Canada for up to 10 years after the offense, so they do check things.
Quote: AZDuffmanKnow before you go, either a passport or enhanced drivers license is needed to cross. When you go to Canada they will ask for a passport, at least at the Rainbow Bridge. This has been procedure for several years now.
I have heard of people with a DUI being persona non grata in Canada for up to 10 years after the offense, so they do check things.
This is still correct, and is a question often asked before take off on the smaller flights and ferry crossings I have been on, where they do the check when you arrive... Kenmore Air really don't want to ferry you back to Seattle if you've been a bad drunk.
Sadly, the rule doesn't apply to Canadian citizens, or we could have kept Gordon Campbell out of BC after his DUI in Hawaii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Campbell
He was leader of the BC Liberal party... but this is a very strange use of the word Liberal indeed. They aren't Liberal in either the American or European usage of the word. Or even associated with the Canadian Federal Liberals (who use it in the same sense as the Classical Liberalism, the foundation of the Republican party, and are probably closest to the left of the American Republicans or the right of the Democrats).
I digress...
It was a good question and sparked an interesting topic. I have a feeling there is still a somewhere around this is an advantage play.Whether or not it's worth it is a different story. At some point it could be worth doing.Quote: DnalorailedQuote: DrawingDeadAt the point when buyers & sellers are drunk, on crack, don't know or don't care, or for some reason are not engaged in a voluntary marketplace transaction.@(1USD=1.13CDN), 20*(1USD=1.13CDN) = (20USD=22.60CDN)
@(20CDN=17USD), 20/17=1.176, 2.6/1.176=2.21,
therefore [17USD+2.60CDN]=[17USD+(2.6CDN/1.176)]=[17USD+2.21USD] = $19.21USD
I was not a math major, but $19.21 < $20.00 in any language.
You lose, and thank-you for playing.
Exactly.
I'll speculate, with nothing but a raw guess, that maybe whatever Axel heard involved something like some casinos exchanging "at par" 1:1 either as a promo and/or for convenience at some time when the actual market rate was close to that, or possibly a long time ago (pre-Nixon administration) when currency exchange was at fixed rates to each other and to gold imposed by government decree (known as the Bretton Woods system) rather than actual market.
"DrawingDead]At the point when buyers & sellers are drunk, on crack, don't know or don't care, or for some reason are not engaged in a voluntary marketplace transaction"
Was this an attempt at humor?
"You lose, and thank-you for playing."
Again?
I like to come here to engage in serious discussion not to be put down or insulted. To quote me and say that kind of stuff is uncool. Can we act like adults here? Or should I be childish too and ask the moderators to chime in?
Quote: thecesspitThis is still correct, and is a question often asked before take off on the smaller flights and ferry crossings I have been on, where they do the check when you arrive... Kenmore Air really don't want to ferry you back to Seattle if you've been a bad drunk.
Sadly, the rule doesn't apply to Canadian citizens, or we could have kept Gordon Campbell out of BC after his DUI in Hawaii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Campbell
He was leader of the BC Liberal party... but this is a very strange use of the word Liberal indeed. They aren't Liberal in either the American or European usage of the word. Or even associated with the Canadian Federal Liberals (who use it in the same sense as the Classical Liberalism, the foundation of the Republican party, and are probably closest to the left of the American Republicans or the right of the Democrats).
I digress...
It is a good thing he was allowed back into BC or we would still be a have-not province collecting our annual dole from Ottawa and suffering under the socialists. All the productive people would have moved to Alberta.
Loonie
Diameter 26.5 mm
Thickness 1.95 mm
Susan B. Anthony dollar
Diameter 26.5 mm
Thickness 2.0 mm
’Loonie’ was originally a mean-spirited jab meant to rhyme with the name of then-Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. It may have been initially hated as much as the Americans hated the SBA dollar. But since Canadians weren't given the choice between coins and bills they eventually grew very fond of the coin.
Quote: pacomartin
’Loonie’ was originally a mean-spirited jab meant to rhyme with the name of then-Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. It may have been initially hated as much as the Americans hated the SBA dollar. But since Canadians weren't given the choice between coins and bills they eventually grew very fond of the coin.
Not sure there is any substance to that story Paco. Although the left leaning voters never much cared for Mulroney I never heard that story in Canada. His last name rhymes with macaroni not looney. The original coins had a loon on them hence the name.
I always thought that when the $2 coin was released it would end up being nicknamed a doubloon (double loon) but alas it got stuck with the much less colourfull "toonie".
Quote: pacomartin
’Loonie’ was originally a mean-spirited jab meant to rhyme with the name of then-Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. It may have been initially hated as much as the Americans hated the SBA dollar. But since Canadians weren't given the choice between coins and bills they eventually grew very fond of the coin.
IMHO Americans will accept a dollar coin but two things need to happen. The paper bill needs to go and the size of the $1 coin needs to be bigger, say the size of a Kennedy Half. It would take 10 years or so to pull off, need to give the vending industry time to adapt.
They keep putting out the little dollar coins. I got some in change from the vending machine at the courthouse, spent them later that week and got a "what the eff is this?" I just put them back in the machine when I use it.
Quote: kenarmanNot sure there is any substance to that story Paco. Although the left leaning voters never much cared for Mulroney I never heard that story in Canada. His last name rhymes with macaroni not looney. The original coins had a loon on them hence the name.
I always thought that when the $2 coin was released it would end up being nicknamed a doubloon (double loon) but alas it got stuck with the much less colourfull "toonie".
The Looney was, I am told, a test stamp, but they lost the one they meant to use, so went with the test stamp that hadn't been compromised.
Quote: kenarmanIt is a good thing he was allowed back into BC or we would still be a have-not province collecting our annual dole from Ottawa and suffering under the socialists. All the productive people would have moved to Alberta.
I'm no fan of the overly union friendly BC NDP, but I am also no fan of the business-corrupt BC Liberals. The BC NDP are in part, 'real' socialists, unlike the fakely named ones down south where 'socialist' means 'slightly left leaning democrat who favours a government program that benefits some private enterprises'.
Campbell lied to the people of BC, when he was actually implementing a good policy. Now we are stuck with the unharmonized tax. That's one, among many, of his sins.
Quote: kenarmanNot sure there is any substance to that story Paco.
I shouldn't repeat everything that I read.
As you probably know, US dimes, quarter, Half Dollars, and Eisenhower dollars were all sized to be 1 pound = $20 . It never really worked as half dollars are too large and Eisenhower dollars were ridiculously big. A dollar coin weighed 4X the quarter. But it did get Americans thinking that a dollar coin should be large.
The big complaint you heard from everyone about the SBA dollar was that it felt like a quarter. It was in fact 43% heavier, while the Loonie is 59% heavier than a Canadian quarter
USA quarter : 24.26 mm * 1.75 mm, 5.67 g
USA SBA dollar: 26.50 mm * 2.00 mm , 8.10 g
Canadian quarter: 23.88 mm * 1.58 mm , 4.4 g
Canadian Dollar : 26.50 mm * 1.75 mm, 7 g
Did people say that about loonies when they first came out?
Quote: kenarmanI always thought that when the $2 coin was released it would end up being nicknamed a doubloon (double loon) ...
I like that! Very clever.
The general argument about the efficiency of the dollar coin vs the dollar banknote has been overtaken by events. Now I think that thinkers would like to have something like a small value wallet card with an RFID chip which retains balances of fairly small amounts and does away with the need for any coins and small value banknotes.
Quote: thecesspitCampbell lied to the people of BC, when he was actually implementing a good policy. Now we are stuck with the unharmonized tax. That's one, among many, of his sins.
The reversal of the HST was a terrible mistake and Campbell would have probably not needed to reverse the tax except that Vanderzalm wanted one last chance at glory. From his many years as a right wing Premier of BC who would of thought that he would get in bed with the NDP on an issue.
Quote: kenarmanThe reversal of the HST was a terrible mistake and Campbell would have probably not needed to reverse the tax except that Vanderzalm wanted one last chance at glory. From his many years as a right wing Premier of BC who would of thought that he would get in bed with the NDP on an issue.
Christy reversed it after the referendum that Van Der Zalm campaigned for, but he just caught the mood of the province... Campbell failed to sell it, and he -must- have known it was coming from the government. Massive hubric own goal. And it is a shame it went, as it simplified a lot... though I'm glad restaurant bills are only 5% sales tax, not 12...
Quote: kenarmanI don't remember a lot of discussion about the loonie and quarter being too close in size but there could have been some but it was never a major issue.
I suspect that Americans would find an excuse as they hate coins so much. They had already rejected Kennedy Half Dollars and Eisenhower dollars as too heavy using the $20/pound standard, so now they rejected the new dollar coin.
7000 grains = 1 pound
One pound = $56
New dollar coins 8.1g = 125.00 grains American
One pound = $20
Eisenhower dollar (350 grains)
Kennedy 50-Cent Piece (175 grains)
Quarter (87.5 grains)
Dime (35 grains)
Pennies One kilogram = $4
Nickels One kilogram = $10
Quote: pacomartinI suspect that Americans would find an excuse as they hate coins so much. They had already rejected Kennedy Half Dollars and Eisenhower dollars as too heavy using the $20/pound standard, so now they rejected the new dollar coin.
So how would the NEW $50 coins out in Canada be viewed? or the new $25 coin?
http://www.mint.ca/store/coins/50-for-50-fine-silver-coin-snowy-owl-2014-prod2090035?o_action=crossSell#.VJJsyXtsOT8
http://www.mint.ca/store/buy/50-for-50_coins-cat820004
http://www.mint.ca/store/buy/20-for-20_coins-cat610001
Quote: pacomartinI suspect that Americans would find an excuse as they hate coins so much. They had already rejected Kennedy Half Dollars and Eisenhower dollars as too heavy using the $20/pound standard, so now they rejected the new dollar coin.
I always thought the excuse that most Americans used to shun the SBA's was that they looked too much like a quarter. To some degree, I agree with this sentiment. If they had changed the metal types/content to something that was visibly different from a distance (like the loonie), then I'm sure we would have readily accepted it found another excuse to hate it.
He said that the Reno casinos had built up a good customer base with players from British Columbia and Alberta because:
1. Reno was closer and easier to get to than Las Vegas.
2. Many of the Reno casinos offered a 3% or 4% premium on the exchange rate.
In the fall of 1998 he bought $15,000 Canadian in Las Vegas for 66.5 cents on the dollar or $9975. He mentioned a foreign exchange office. The Reno casinos had restrictions on how much you could exchange. You couldn't just walk in and exchange a few thousand dollars at a time. You were restricted to buying into the blackjack games with $100 Canadian at a time but didn't have to show ID.
The casinos he specifically mentioned were the Atlantis, Peppermill, El Dorado, Flamingo Hilton, Pioneer, Bonanza, Comstock, Riverboat, and Cal Neva. When he bought into a blackjack game with $100 Canadian he got $70 in chips. His technique was to bet at least $40 on the first hand. That way if he lost the hand or caught a split or double down it was an excuse to crack another $100 Canadian. He said you had to work all three shifts in a place and spread it around to all the casinos. The Cal Neva was the best spot where he got $72.50 per Canadian hundred. Some places gave you $70 in non-negotiable action chips for a Canadian hundred. Which meant you had to play the money through at least once.
He gave his final numbers. He made $644 on the exchange which would be right at 6.5%.
644/9975 = 6.46%
Anyone doing this full time was making a killing. I think guys like kewlj would have had a lot of fun in Reno in the nineties.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm wondering if they got a better deal on slots, perhaps a bonus?
Well, here's the thing, Axel. It was the fall of 1998. Meadow had a bit of a slot habit. But in reading the book I could tell, although he appears to have been a world class blackjack player, he knew nothing about the accumulator slots. The casinos he played in had tons of these games in that time frame. In one chapter he wrote about dumping $669 on Megabucks. He played blackjack in the Cal Neva quite a bit because they offered the best exchange at $72.50, and he wrote about exchanging Canadian money to play slots there, but he played the sucker sots, not the accumulators.
I've read the book with great interest because I was working Reno/Tahoe quite a bit at the time and the places were just as he described. The Cal-Neva was video poker heaven at the time. They had bartop quarter multi-game progressives with all the games on the same royal meter. The best game was 9/6 Jacks. The Skywalk bartops had a 2% progressive meter. The Keno Lounge bartops had a 1.5% meter. There was nickel 10/7 Ten-Play. The card was worth .125% cashback, .125% comp. And there were scratchers for natural 4K's. My scratchers averaged to $1.47. I waited for the scratchers on the ten plays because I could shift from one machine to another, but it was hardly worth it on the progressives because generally all the machines were taken and I couldn't bounce back and forth from one to another. So I didn't stop when I was in a royal race.
I think one of the problems with video poker would be showing them American ID on a W2-G handpay after cracking a bunch of Canadian hundreds. The accumulator slots would have been the way to go I think.
