rxwine
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:08:13 PM permalink
Do casinos really need to calculate averages for table players? Couldn't they just go to a system where you buy in (get chips), and cash out, and turn your chips in at the table before you leave and receive a printed TITO ticket which you take to the cashiers cage or machine.

I mean, I understand why the system existed this way up to now so cash wasn't dealt with once it was slotted in exchange for chips. It wouldn't even slow down the game if they added a extra person to cover several tables for that purpose.

But the advantage for the casino would be they know exactly how much money left the table and who cashed out and whether they were down or up and by how much. What I'm saying is, the chips could no longer be cashed at all off the original table. You would always receive a TITO receipt to take to the cashier.

I'm sure it didn't seem feasible to run a cashiers cage with the needed security for all the cash smack in the middle of tables, but TITO overcomes that problem if you had the ability to generate them right there.
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AxiomOfChoice
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:11:22 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Do casinos really need to calculate averages for table players? Couldn't they just go to a system where you buy in (get chips), and cash out turn your chips in at the table before you leave and receive a printed TITO ticket which you take to the cashiers cage or machine.

I mean, I understand why the system existed this way up to now so cash wasn't dealt with once it was slotted in exchange for chips. It wouldn't even slow down the game if they added a extra person to cover several tables for that purpose.

But the advantage for the casino would be they know exactly how much money left the table and who cashed out and whether they were down or up and by how much. What I'm saying is, the chips could no longer be cashed at all off the original table. You would always receive a TITO receipt to take to the cashier.

I'm sure it didn't seem feasible to run a cashiers cage with the needed security for all the cash smack in the middle of tables, but TITO overcomes that problem if you had the ability to generate them right there.



They need to calculate your average bet so that they know your value to them as a customer.
rxwine
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:26:14 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

They need to calculate your average bet so that they know your value to them as a customer.



People playing machines without player cards are essentially unvalued. So, I know it occurs, or is allowed to happen.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Tomspur
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:31:06 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Do casinos really need to calculate averages for table players? Couldn't they just go to a system where you buy in (get chips), and cash out, and turn your chips in at the table before you leave and receive a printed TITO ticket which you take to the cashiers cage or machine.

I mean, I understand why the system existed this way up to now so cash wasn't dealt with once it was slotted in exchange for chips. It wouldn't even slow down the game if they added a extra person to cover several tables for that purpose.

But the advantage for the casino would be they know exactly how much money left the table and who cashed out and whether they were down or up and by how much. What I'm saying is, the chips could no longer be cashed at all off the original table. You would always receive a TITO receipt to take to the cashier.

I'm sure it didn't seem feasible to run a cashiers cage with the needed security for all the cash smack in the middle of tables, but TITO overcomes that problem if you had the ability to generate them right there.



This has been in development for quite some time now. There is a small TITO scanner on the table game top right next to the drop paddle. When you bring your TITO to the game you can give it to the dealer who wills can it and issue you with chips for the whole amount or give you a partial and refund the balance with a TITO. Therefore it makes perfect sense that such a system will allow you to simply print out a TITO at the game and you can head to a slot machine or you can head to an NRT or you can head to the Cage. As for Axioms worry about ratings, the floor would still rate you on your average bet and time played, that wouldn't change as your players card still needs to be swiped into the table management software.

I think this will happen sooner than later. There will obviously be concerns but it will happen.

What I would like to see sooner in casinos in the US is a cash counting machine at each table game. This will help eliminate counting errors by the dealers AND it will help prevent counterfeit notes taken at the table games.

There is one problem though.....dealers will feel like they are sitting in a clump of electronics....shufflers, TITO accepters and printers, cash counters, table management software web pads and on and on and on......

I think more is better myself but that is just me!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
AxiomOfChoice
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:32:11 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

People playing machines without player cards are essentially unvalued. So, I know it occurs, or is allowed to happen.



Sure, but, as a player, I don't want that. I want my comps!
beachbumbabs
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:39:47 PM permalink
To me, a TITO at the table would make a lot of sense. You want to take a dinner break, come back after a nap, a swim, a quick TITO you can tuck in your wallet is preferable to a handful of large chips. You step over there from the slots or VP and they can give you chips without a cashout machine. From the casino's POV, I would guess they would make more money, just like they have from TITO over coins. You spend more, faster, if you're working off a TITO on credits. And if you go to the cage or the machine to cash out a TITO ticket, you have that extra pause where maybe you just walk away with the cash rather than turning it into chips and continuing to play. Psychologically, I think it would pay for itself within a year or two (for the tables to upgrade).
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Tomspur
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:41:13 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

To me, a TITO at the table would make a lot of sense. You want to take a dinner break, come back after a nap, a swim, a quick TITO you can tuck in your wallet is preferable to a handful of large chips. You step over there from the slots or VP and they can give you chips without a cashout machine. From the casino's POV, I would guess they would make more money, just like they have from TITO over coins. You spend more, faster, if you're working off a TITO on credits. And if you go to the cage or the machine to cash out a TITO ticket, you have that extra pause where maybe you just walk away with the cash rather than turning it into chips and continuing to play. Psychologically, I think it would pay for itself within a year or two (for the tables to upgrade).



You are a smart girl babs, you get it :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
AxiomOfChoice
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:43:23 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

As for Axioms worry about ratings, the floor would still rate you on your average bet and time played



Yes. that was my point.

The question (the thread title) is "Do casinos really need to calculate averages for table players". My answer is "yes". You seem to agree.

I don't understand what TITO vs chips has to do with that question though.
Tomspur
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:46:25 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I don't understand what TITO vs chips has to do with that question though.



Was more commenting on rx's idea of having TITO's either printed or cashed at a table game.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
AxiomOfChoice
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:51:04 PM permalink
rx wrote:

Quote: rxwine

Do casinos really need to calculate averages for table players? Couldn't they just go to a system where you buy in (get chips), and cash out, and turn your chips in at the table before you leave and receive a printed TITO ticket which you take to the cashiers cage or machine.



To me, that is like saying, "Do you really need to eat in order to survive? Can't we just get rid of CDs and have all our music be digitally downloaded?"

The answer to the first question is "yes". The rest of it seems to have nothing to do with the question.
AxelWolf
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:57:33 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Yes. that was my point.

The question (the thread title) is "Do casinos really need to calculate averages for table players". My answer is "yes". You seem to agree.

I don't understand what TITO vs chips has to do with that question though.

Ya I have no clue what one had to do with the other, it seems like a strange question, perhaps they don't know how you really get rated.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
rxwine
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March 5th, 2014 at 10:59:35 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

The question (the thread title) is "Do casinos really need to calculate averages for table players". My answer is "yes". You seem to agree.

I don't understand what TITO vs chips has to do with that question though.



Well, the other thing, when you buy in and out on a TITO, how much you are up or down would be within the casino's grasp because the times and the amount you started with, the amount you cashed out, and the time at the table could be determined, and from that other information could be extrapolated about play. The casino really wants to know if you're winning or losing and how much.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Tomspur
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March 5th, 2014 at 11:01:54 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Well, the other thing, when you buy in and out on a TITO, and how much you are up or down would be within the casino's grasp because the times and the amount you started with, the amount you cashed out, and the time at the table could be determined, and from that other information could be extrapolated about play. The casino really wants to know if you're winning or losing and how much.



I disagree slightly. Even though logically an important KPI for the casino is your win/loss, there are other factors that are just as important if not more so for the longevity of your relationship with that casino.

Average bet, biggest bet size, time played (as you mentioned) and very importantly game type is also critical in evaluating you as a player and a future "investment" if you will.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
AxiomOfChoice
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March 5th, 2014 at 11:24:35 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I disagree slightly. Even though logically an important KPI for the casino is your win/loss, there are other factors that are just as important if not more so for the longevity of your relationship with that casino.

Average bet, biggest bet size, time played (as you mentioned) and very importantly game type is also critical in evaluating you as a player and a future "investment" if you will.



Can you provide some insight here? How is max bet size used?

Ignore games that can be counted for a minute (no AP concerns). Say some people are playing baccarat:

Player 1 bets $500 per hand, every hand.
Player 2 sits out half the hands and and bets $1000 on the other half.
Player 3 only bets about 1 hand in 10, but bets $5000 when he does bet.

All have a $500 average bet (or $1000 if your casino uses the "expect people to bet 1/2 the hands, and double the rating of people who bet every hand" system that is common for baccarat). Will these players be treated differently? And, if so, why? (all players have the same expected loss) Is there the thought that someone who is willing to make the occasional $5k bet can be "developed" into a more valuable customer?

Also, what if we divide all the bet numbers by 10 (so all are averaging $50 per hand). Now are the players treated differently?
AxelWolf
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March 5th, 2014 at 11:28:01 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Well, the other thing, when you buy in and out on a TITO, how much you are up or down would be within the casino's grasp because the times and the amount you started with, the amount you cashed out, and the time at the table could be determined, and from that other information could be extrapolated about play. The casino really wants to know if you're winning or losing and how much.

Casinos don't care much if you win or lose for a piratical reason . They only really want to know this information to figure out how to market to you. But, they really need to know your average bet and length of time you played. That's what really matters.

The reason why casinos DON'T care or like to Comp on losses only, is one person may win 300k at a table in just a few hands of BJ and the other person might lose 200k at the same table. S o now the person who just lost 200k would be expecting everything under the sun rooms, food, limos, rebates, hookers the works.

they may want to calculate if you lose way more then you should be. This may indicate you play very poorly and deserve more comps.

Why else would casinos spend millions of dollars or tracking systems, if they only cared about wins and losses? They could easily track MOST players wins and losses.

It would be nice if some casino did track wins and losses. Dose anyone know of any casinos that still only track wins and losses? I can think of one place that MIGHT do this.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Tomspur
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March 6th, 2014 at 12:54:42 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Can you provide some insight here? How is max bet size used?

Ignore games that can be counted for a minute (no AP concerns). Say some people are playing baccarat:

Player 1 bets $500 per hand, every hand.
Player 2 sits out half the hands and and bets $1000 on the other half.
Player 3 only bets about 1 hand in 10, but bets $5000 when he does bet.

All have a $500 average bet (or $1000 if your casino uses the "expect people to bet 1/2 the hands, and double the rating of people who bet every hand" system that is common for baccarat). Will these players be treated differently? And, if so, why? (all players have the same expected loss) Is there the thought that someone who is willing to make the occasional $5k bet can be "developed" into a more valuable customer?

Also, what if we divide all the bet numbers by 10 (so all are averaging $50 per hand). Now are the players treated differently?



You are right that the average for the players will be the same and you are right that some players will be rated as "slow, medium or fast" depending on how many free hands they see. THis will affect their ratings in that the slow player will not be rated as highly as the "fast" player (who plays every hand). The thing in the larger wagers favor is that he may be perceived as a bigger player by casino management (which of course is a fallacy) but as you mentioned they will be looking at the amount of money he is willing to risk on one hand and evaluate his worth from there.

I don't believe in this system as it skewes the casinos' opinion of a "whale". SOmeone who is willing to rish a large amount of money on a wager. I want to see time spent in the chair consistently making the same large money wagers before classifying him as such. Casinos try to cultivate and create players who often are simply either streak bettors or are drunk for lack of a better explanation. In my opinion you can only assess a players worth over a period of time.
I think you probably have the same opinion?
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
AxiomOfChoice
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March 6th, 2014 at 1:11:40 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I think you probably have the same opinion?



I don't know... I'm asking you :) I'm curious how casino management (and marketing) sees things.
BleedingChipsSlowly
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March 6th, 2014 at 2:50:25 AM permalink
Maybe I would want to break up how much I cash in for "tax purposes."
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AcesAndEights
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March 6th, 2014 at 8:33:46 AM permalink
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Maybe I would want to break up how much I cash in for "tax purposes."


Structuring, that's a felony.
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tongni
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March 9th, 2014 at 2:18:53 PM permalink
Tomspur, I'm curious as to what casino you work for and what position, if you don't mind sharing.

Also, I have a question. Many casinos classify players as slot, video poker, or table players. If your casino does so, what is the ratio of reinvestment you try to spend on each type of player? How often do you evaluate players and put them into one of these buckets? Is it automated or manually reviewed?
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