SlackJawYokel
SlackJawYokel
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September 30th, 2012 at 6:58:28 AM permalink
Last night a friend and I were playing Texas Holdem Bonus to pass some time away and an interesting situation occurred to me. The dealer and I both had the same two pair and he had top kicker so he should have won the hand. I should mention that he was new so the pit supervisor was basically standing behind him the entire time watching the play of the game. This dealer was making errors all night long and the supervisor was not catching anything. The dealer began to collect my money (rightly so) and the supervisor stopped him and told him that this was a push; we both had the same two pair. He said ok and proceeded to leave my bet stand. About 5 hands later the pit boss comes over to the table and tells the dealer and myself that I owe the house the money I bet on this hand. I knew I lost the hand so I paid the casino the money but had a problem with the way the situation was handled.
First let me begin by stating that this is not about the money, but more the principle of the matter. I believe that the casino is providing a service to the customer and that is why they set the games with advantage, it is the cost of entertainment. Since I am paying for this service I am out of line to expect that the dealers are competent at the games they deal? The pit boss called me an opportunist and accused me of taking advantage of a new dealer. I told him that I did not say a word and let the personnel figure out the resolution to the bet. If they make an error it is on them. At this point we had wasted about a half hour of both my time and theirs. I feel that since this hand happened multiple hands prior and the supervisor did not know the correct play they should eat the cost of that incompetence. Am I way out of line in thinking that way?

Thanks for any input
ahiromu
ahiromu
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September 30th, 2012 at 7:46:06 AM permalink
Let me first state that I have never had this happen to me and it would piss me off. On the other hand... I have collected a miss-payment, put it in my rack, and was forced to drop it.

This is something you'll get a lot of different opinions on here, if it doesn't become open warfare between Paigowdan vs. "The Crowd". If I were in your place, I would have paid it back to them but had a serious word with the pit/supervisor. If they weren't apologetic about the situation then I would have left. Mispays are one thing that happen and it's part of playing (in my opinion you should have a right to the tapes) - but the fact that the supervisor miss-corrected it really rubs me the wrong way.

You had a right to be angry, but maybe not a half hour of arguing angry.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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September 30th, 2012 at 7:51:28 AM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

but the fact that the supervisor miss-corrected it really rubs me the wrong way.



That would have been my main sticking point as well. Once management makes that call - right or wrong - I'm not sure how the discussion isn't over.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
buzzpaff
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September 30th, 2012 at 7:53:19 AM permalink
You need to look at it from management's side. Look at all the goodwill it created, in addition to the lost revenue.

Of course, the supervisor could have said he was sorry, but fair is fair. Gaming insists we follow the rules. Oh, by the way, can I offer you and your beautiful wife, a comped meal ?

No, what the hell am I thinking about. Evidently you are sheep and born to be sheared !
bw
bw
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September 30th, 2012 at 8:06:06 AM permalink
I always wonder what would happen if the player already spent the incorrect payout. I saw a $400 bonus that was paid when it shouldnt have been at Foxwoods. What if the player gambled away that $400 thinking it was paid correctly and has bad luck and loses it quickly. He has no more money on him. Will they send it to a collection agency assuming they know who it is?
1BB
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September 30th, 2012 at 8:09:10 AM permalink
They had the right to ask for the money to be returned and you were right to give it back. Had you refused I doubt that they would try to force you but you'd probably be history at that casino.

That incompetent pit boss showed a complete lack of class. Even if he had gotten a call from the sky he still had the discretion to let it go. At the very least you should have been written a nice meal comp on the spot.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
SlackJawYokel
SlackJawYokel
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September 30th, 2012 at 11:49:22 AM permalink
This was my point exactly the bet was resolved by the supervisor; whether it was right or wrong is not of my concern. I understand that mistakes happen and should be corrected but to supervise the game you should have an understanding of the rules.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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September 30th, 2012 at 11:52:13 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ahigh
Ahigh
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September 30th, 2012 at 12:02:03 PM permalink
Quote: SlackJawYokel

This was my point exactly the bet was resolved by the supervisor; whether it was right or wrong is not of my concern. I understand that mistakes happen and should be corrected but to supervise the game you should have an understanding of the rules.



My short suggestion in these cases is to pretend that you're just not as smart and you have no idea what they are talking about.

If you're smart, pretend to be drunk.

If you don't drink, pretend to be sleepy.

The casino wants you to be the one who's not playing at 100%. Thank them for alerting your not being aware of being paid and say, "wow I had no idea. I probably shouldn't even be playing if I'm that absent minded."

Then leave and thank them for alerting you to not being more cognizant of what is going on.

You never want to admit to being fully alert while gambling if you're being overpaid. It's never to your advantage to say "oh yeah, I knew you paid me in error, I just need the money!" Acting dumb, drunk, or sleepy is a much better path than being difficult and turning things into a conflict.

If they refused to pay you when they should have paid you, THAT is when you are awake, sober, intelligent!!!
aahigh.com
wernerw
wernerw
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October 1st, 2012 at 3:18:15 AM permalink
Well, first of all I, too, would have taken the money. And I would not pretend to bee too drunk or dull.

I do not know where this happened but my experiences in Vegas are that pit people are very generous with these decisions. I could not imagine this to happen in one of the bigger casinos in Vegas. (Maybe I must add that I am a lowroller).

And I would have started a discussion. Definitely. Pretending that I do not remember the hand and offer to pay it back if it was wrong which can be proved by video. And then see what will happen.
WongBo
WongBo
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October 1st, 2012 at 4:09:56 AM permalink
I was playing pai gow tiles last week and the dealer was being sort of a bitch to be honest.
She was not pleasant when I sat down, she skipped dealing to me once, Unapologetic,
And was complaining to another dealer that she wanted to go home.

She opened her hand and had day,sam, gor, ng.....2,(3/6),4,5.
Obviously the best hand and house way here is high eight/nine.
She set her hand as 7/7.
There was a moment where i peered at her hand intently.
The other player at the table was a young guy betting about 500 a hand.
He had 7/8 with a higher 7.
A winner against 7/7.., a loser against the house way.
I had 25 on the hand and gong/Bo.
I was getting paid regardless.
I looked at him and our eyes locked, his wide as saucers....was I going to say something?

Not my style, When I saw him later in the parking lot
he was nice enough to give me 50. LOL. We just laughed..
The best thing about dealer errors at pai gow is that
surveillance doesn't seem to know the game,
they are just watching the money and for tile marking.
Sure they have the tape, but for the most part,
there is no "collected back later"...
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
FinsRule
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October 1st, 2012 at 4:12:33 AM permalink
I don't really have a problem with the way anything was handled except for the pit boss calling you an opportunist. That's crazy and uncalled for.

That's the part that would make me not want to play there again, not the fact that they got the decision ultimately right.

Now, good customer service would have been them coming over, explaining what happened, and just saying something like "We realized there was a mistake 5 hands ago, we won't take any money from you this time, but next time if we do catch it later, we will take the money back"
RaleighCraps
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October 1st, 2012 at 5:10:46 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

I don't really have a problem with the way anything was handled except for the pit boss calling you an opportunist. That's crazy and uncalled for.

That's the part that would make me not want to play there again, not the fact that they got the decision ultimately right.

Now, good customer service would have been them coming over, explaining what happened, and just saying something like "We realized there was a mistake 5 hands ago, we won't take any money from you this time, but next time if we do catch it later, we will take the money back"



These threads, there have been a couple of them now, have gotten me to thinking about how to handle this, should it happen to me. I almost always will point out if I have been overpaid on a bet, but then again, I don't play card games where pointing out a mistake would cause other players to lose money. Put in that position, I think I would remain silent, and still sleep just fine. Especially more so if someone had a big bet on the table.

If it happens to me, I will have a very short and pleasant conversation on why I do not feel they should be coming back to me for the money, unless they are going to give me the option to review all of the play, so I too can look for mistakes that were not in my favor. Of course that will be denied, but the point that this is pretty one sided will have been made. I am then going to offer a settlement.

I will offer to put the full amount of money in question on the table as a wager. If I win, I will keep the winnings, and then give them the money as requested.
If I lose the bet, then it is considered we are even.


It will be interesting to see if the casino takes that deal or not.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
MonkeyMonkey
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October 1st, 2012 at 5:15:09 AM permalink
Quote: SlackJawYokel

...I feel that since this hand happened multiple hands prior and the supervisor did not know the correct play they should eat the cost of that incompetence. Am I way out of line in thinking that way?



I think you lost the any moral high ground you might have had when you didn't raise the same stink when you were paid when you shouldn't have been.
vendman1
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October 1st, 2012 at 5:19:59 AM permalink
My two cents on dealer mispays. I've had it happen a few of times. Usually on blackjack during a hand where there have been multiple splits/dd's(more confusing than normal in otherwords). Usually dealers either are trying to rake my bet on a push. Or pay me on a push. Needless to say I alert them when they are raking my stack in error. I try to alert them if they are paying me in error too. But I've had at least two cases where my attention was diverted (ie..cocktail watiress), and I was paid before I could say anything. What to do then?

Here's what I did: In the first instance the dealer and pit staff had been helpful pleasant and attentive all evening. I had been chatting with the floor supervisor off and on all night, he wandered up to the table right after the hand. I alerted him about the over pay, he said he would check and get back to me and to keep playing. He came back about 10 min later, said he had securtiy check the tape and I was right, but they appreciated my honesty and didn't want the money back ($25). Good customer service.

Second time different casino, this dealer had been making mistakes all night (the casino itself had just opened table games, used to be slots only). Myself and other players had corrected at least 7 or 8 mistakes. We were very pleasant and congenial the whole time. The staff was new at tables and we were all patient about it. So on the hand in question I split 8's into three hands and end up with an 18 and 2 19's. The dealer who started with a 5 pulls 4 cards and ends up with 19. So 2 pushes and a loss for me..I'm at first base. I turn around to talk to my wife who had just walked up behind me, when I turn back around all my chips have been raked away. The dealer is still paying 3rd base. I say.. whoa whoa you raked all my bets when you shouldn't have as two of them were pushes. She stops and calls over the floor sup. He gets a puzzeled look on his face and says, in a smug and doubting tone of voice..are you sure?...YES...you've been here all night, you've seen the errors made and now I'm lying?...the dealer pipes up that she thinks I'm right..starts to back the cards out of the discard rack to look...he stops her and says they'll have to check the tape. Long story short they stop the game and waste everyones time, and 15 min later pay me the $50 per hand they raked when the shouldn't have. Now comes the funny part. The very next hand...she pays me when it was a push, I didn't say a word.
Bad customer service.
taishan2112
taishan2112
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October 1st, 2012 at 6:17:56 AM permalink
Isn't one of the wizard 10 commandments about honoring thy wager, win or lose?
Ibeatyouraces
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October 1st, 2012 at 7:06:09 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Mosca
Mosca
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October 1st, 2012 at 7:10:32 AM permalink
I've turned around on this. I tried keeping my mouth shut, and didn't like it; now I correct.

First, if a dealer overpays another player, I have to keep quiet. That's their game, not mine.

On my hand, I correct mis-pays. And here's why: I accepted the deal when I sat down at the table. I agreed to the odds and the pay tables. After that, it's the same situation as receiving too much change. Part of the social glue that makes us civilized is both sides making sure that petty contracts are accurate. And this situation is a petty contract. Frankly, there isn't enough money in the transaction for me to feel differently about this. Ten, or twenty five, or a hundred this way or that way isn't going to affect my life. At larger sums, it becomes blatantly dishonest. There isn't much else to say, to describe any why-or-why-not; the only way to say it would be, if I didn't do it this way then I wouldn't be me.

The biggest one was about 6 months ago; I hit 3 Kings on a bonus pay table at a 3 card game, betting $10, and the dealer pushed 4 black chips at me. I was puzzled for a second, then said I'd love to accept that but I couldn't. The dealer and pit boss were appreciative, all I asked for was that it be noted on my chart that I am a straight shooter. I accepted the deal, and I honor it. That's all there is to it.

How someone else handles it, I don't care. Keep your mouth shut, that's your choice, and I won't pipe up.
A falling knife has no handle.
WongBo
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October 1st, 2012 at 7:12:02 AM permalink
There is no morality in a casino. The casino preys on every human weakness they can think of.
Sex, drugs, rock and roll...right down to the confusing floor layout with no windows, no clocks, no exit.
My motto....f**k them before they f**k you.
In the case i mentioned, it was someone else whom was benefiting from the error.
There is absoluttely no way I am going to play cop for the casino without getting paid.
People,have been knifed for less.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
NickyDim
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October 1st, 2012 at 8:10:11 AM permalink
I would correct a mistake paid to me immediately, but I would never ever butt in where someone else at my table was paid wrong in their favor. That's for that person to reconcile or not. However if another person at my table got short changed I would speak up immediately.

Wangbo, they are most definitely trying to squeeze us at every turn, but they are a private establishment and can ask us to leave at any time, so I'm not one to quickly take the F-them attitude. We fully know their tactics to milk us, but we do the same to them, or at least try with winning or comps. We don't want them crossing the line of unfair play (beyond what we accept when we take money out of our pockets to play) so we shouldn't either. Plus I'm a believer in balance/karma, so I'm not going to invite misfortune upon me and also my integrity that won't let me.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
WongBo
WongBo
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October 1st, 2012 at 8:46:11 AM permalink
Well I am unencumbered by religious beliefs of any ilk,
Including the vague notion (in this case) of karma.
I also have an underdeveloped sense of guilt or regret,
so I am perfectly suited for AP and gain due to error.
Now if you will excuse me,
theres a sloppy three card poker dealer holding my spot at first base.
It's payday!
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Dynamite
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October 1st, 2012 at 9:32:48 AM permalink
This is a great thread. Almost all of us can relate to the happenings described in one way or another. I'd like to add this story.

I too, always took the high road. I don't know how many times I gave back mispays or pointed out that the dealer had made an error one way or the other. Then one night at Wheeling Island I came to a fork in that road.

I was playing BJ at a 25min table. The table was lively and there was a lot of positive interaction between players (high-fiving, fist knocking,etc), and everyone was having a great time. No one was way up or way down to my knowledge. I am on 3rd base and all of a sudden I get a tap on my shoulder and turn and there stands the PB (Let's call him Tony M) with a scowl on his face. He stops the game, points a finger in my face and tells me I owe them $25 and he wants it right now! I am really taken aback, I have no idea what he is talking about. Then he goes on to say that I collected on a push and he wants it back and again he says right now. I politely told him I was almost positive I hadn't done so and would gladly pay it back if I had, but he would have to show me. He again told me that I owed it and he didn't have to show me anything except the door and he would throw me out immediately if I did not give it to them. Well, that kind of ruffled my feathers and made my temperature rise. Had this Tony character been a little diplomatic I might have just given them the green chip and gone on with the game, but his heavy handed manner and loud accusations and threats got the best of me. Now I am steaming. I told them I wasn't giving them a damn nickel and they would have to throw me out, because I hadn't done anything wrong and told Tony I was planning on getting a piece of him on the way out.

As you might imagine, everything around us had come to a standstill. At least 3 tables had quit dealing and a crowd had started to gather. So Tony and I are standing there glaring at each other and here comes the floor supervisor and someone from upstairs. The floor and the surveillance have this conference and she comes up to the table and say look you owe us $50, you collected on a push. I said he said it was $25 and again I told her I didn't do it, and she says not you, him.... and points to the guy beside me. Well, he immediately says OK here's $50 I don't want to argue about it, and gives them 2 green chips.

So now everyone sits back down and starts to play except me. I am still hot. Tony has gone to the far end of the pit and has turned his back on me. I yelled at him and he said "what do you want?" I said I think you owe me something don't you? He said "like what" I said how about an apology. Oh, he says, you want me to say I am sorry, OK I'm sorry. But the smirk on his face and his cavalier attitude belied any hint of regret. So I picked up my chips and cashed out, never to darken their door again.

I am sure they probably lost more while they were figuring things out than the fifty bucks the guy gave them. They lost me too, but I'm no prize. They also lost my wife's slot action, now that's a different story. Bye-bye Wheeling Island - Hello Meadows
WongBo
WongBo
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October 1st, 2012 at 9:44:13 AM permalink
Im glad you named the casino,
and I can only hope that Tony M is the real name of the d-bag
who lost two customers for his bosses that day.
PA really played it smart with their good blackjack rules.
Stealing players from WV and NJ.
I hope it lasts, but I am playing double time
just in case it doesn't.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Paigowdan
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October 1st, 2012 at 11:22:37 AM permalink
Quote: SlackJawYokel

Last night a friend and I were playing Texas Holdem Bonus to pass some time away and an interesting situation occurred to me. The dealer and I both had the same two pair and he had top kicker so he should have won the hand. I should mention that he was new so the pit supervisor was basically standing behind him the entire time watching the play of the game. This dealer was making errors all night long and the supervisor was not catching anything. The dealer began to collect my money (rightly so) and the supervisor stopped him and told him that this was a push; we both had the same two pair. He said ok and proceeded to leave my bet stand. About 5 hands later the pit boss comes over to the table and tells the dealer and myself that I owe the house the money I bet on this hand. I knew I lost the hand so I paid the casino the money but had a problem with the way the situation was handled.
First let me begin by stating that this is not about the money, but more the principle of the matter. I believe that the casino is providing a service to the customer and that is why they set the games with advantage, it is the cost of entertainment. Since I am paying for this service I am out of line to expect that
the dealers are competent at the games they deal?


Actually, yes, - and this is the same in any field or profession. People are human, and make mistakes in every line of work. Correcting and adjusting errors back to what the correct result should have been applies to all business that have customer transactions. A bank teller's mistake in your favor does not "make" the wrong money yours, and the same applies to dealers, store clerks, etc. If you know what the honest result was, then you should have no qualms about the honest result of the hand being the factor to correctly adjust the payment.

Quote: SlackJawYokel

The pit boss called me an opportunist and accused me of taking advantage of a new dealer.


Not meaning to offend you, I can see that. If you know what the result was, then its discovery and having it be pointed out should be always be met with agreement and honesty about it.

Quote: SlackJawYokel

I told him that I did not say a word and let the personnel figure out the resolution to the bet. If they make an error it is on them. At this point we had wasted about a half hour of both my time and theirs. I feel that since this hand happened multiple hands prior and the supervisor did not know the correct play they should eat the cost of that incompetence. Am I way out of line in thinking that way?


Yes. All corrections (and that the player knows in his heart is the correct result) should be abided by without argument. There are only results that end in "correct money" and "wrong money." In many situations, Most players cry bloody murder if they are shortchanged, yet they "hope in silence" that a mistake will go undetected if it is in the player's favor, yet the result is exactly the same when viewed not from a self-seeking point-of-view, but based on the honest result of the hand. Every body was once "new on the job," no matter the field, and mistakes are to be corrected, instead of attempted to be "gotten away with." If a mistake does not make your money the house's money when it is against you, then a mistake the other way does not make the money yours either. This is actually the principal of the matter.

Edit: I do not espouse the "f*CK them before they f*ck you" mentality. All f*cking should be in a room, and the problem is that people try to f*ck people and justify this by saying, "If I can F*ck them before they f*ck me, then THAT is all right - so as long as I am not f*cked myself; so f*ck the other guy first." This is B.S., as any f*cking doesn't belong on a gaming table.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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October 1st, 2012 at 12:16:26 PM permalink
Quote: Dynamite



So now everyone sits back down and starts to play except me. I am still hot.



The attitude you experienced permeates casinos,
its just they're usually in better control of it. They
think every dime you walk in with is theirs and
every mistake you they make can be corrected
by demanding you pay it back. When have they
ever come to you made right a mistake you made.
Don't hold your breath.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
TheBigPaybak
TheBigPaybak
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October 1st, 2012 at 1:07:37 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The attitude you experienced permeates casinos,
its just they're usually in better control of it. They
think every dime you walk in with is theirs and
every mistake you they make can be corrected
by demanding you pay it back. When have they
ever come to you made right a mistake you made.
Don't hold your breath.



Maybe I've been lucky, but I've had very few occasions where casino personnel took attitudes which really made me see red. A few come to mind, but I've never been involved in a situation where they got ticked and wanted me to return money after the fact. Here are a few situations that really annoyed me:
1. A certain government-run casino in Canada, took my bet in Pai Gow Poker after having sloppily put my 5 cards in my low hand spot and my 2 cards in my high-hand spot. I wrote a letter but didn't receive a response. Needless to say, I haven't played there seriously in a long time.
2. I was in AC and tried to sell my free Jay Leno tickets to a couple behind me, and the individual really reamed me out and threatened to kick me out. Yeah, I don't really go to that particular chain much any more.
3. I got up from a table after a table game hand was won, but before the payout was executed, having received a txt for dinner which I was waiting for, and the dealer casually goes, "Should I take his money?" to the pit boss. The Pit Boss said no, thankfully. I still like the place, though, as generally they do a nice job, but why would a dealer almost "want" to see my money taken? And no, I wasn't being loud and obnoxious.

Anyway...
Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.
SlackJawYokel
SlackJawYokel
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October 1st, 2012 at 2:55:30 PM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I think you lost the any moral high ground you might have had when you didn't raise the same stink when you were paid when you shouldn't have been.



I am not attempting to justify my actions to anyone but I view it this way:

In almost any other business if an error is made by an employee due to incompetent on the job behavior/ performance the customer would never be asked to pay for that cost. I understand that no one is perfect and errors will be made but I must have watched 20-30 incorrect payouts or collections by this particular dealer in a few hour period. These did not happen to me and what others do at the table is their business so I did not say a word. This is not an isolated error that should be corrected; it is rather gross incompetence. If I put someone and their supervisor in the field who did not know the job, I would expect it to cost me money.

Furthermore; by going to this particular establishment and being provided a service for a cost shouldn't they be able to actually provide that service to you. I can understand being new, that may be an excuse to go slower to get it right and make an occasional error but this did not reflect my experience at all. The supervisor had to basically explain how to deal the game at the table to the dealer. Is that the type of service that you would pay for anywhere else? Then to top it off the pit-boss was rude and insulted me instead of addressing the situation that should have taken priority, preventing further errors from occurring.
MonkeyMonkey
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October 2nd, 2012 at 12:45:21 AM permalink
Quote: SlackJawYokel

I am not attempting to justify my actions to anyone...



Quote: SlackJawYokel

...whether it was right or wrong is not of my concern.



I don't think providing qualifiers like "shouldn't they be able to actually provide that service to you," mean a whole lot. Preying on someone else's weakness isn't an excuse or virtue in my life outlook.

But as you can see from reading this thread you're hardly alone. Many people have no problem taking wrong money. Personally, I couldn't do it, but if stealing is your thing and you can get away with it with a clear conscience I guess you've found a profitable hobby.
MonkeyMonkey
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October 2nd, 2012 at 12:57:56 AM permalink
Quote: WongBo

There is no morality in a casino.



Absolutely untrue. Unless you're referring only to players like yourself.

Quote: WongBo

The casino preys on every human weakness they can think of.



It's worse than that. Where I work, we have people posing as stranded motorists on the nearby highway. If someone is foolish enough to pull over, we force them at gun point to the casino and make them gamble until all their money is gone.

Quote: WongBo

Sex, drugs, rock and roll...



Ok, I admit it, sometimes they do play rock music. The sex and drugs must be going on in the bathroom because I never see that.

Quote: WongBo

right down to the confusing floor layout with no windows, no clocks, no exit.



Don't worry, the Professor is working on a rescue. You should be able to leave the casino soon unless Gilligan stuffs it up again.

Quote: WongBo

My motto....f**k them before they f**k you.



This doesn't even require any comment, it speaks very clearly about your character.

Quote: WongBo


In the case i mentioned, it was someone else whom was benefiting from the error.
There is absoluttely no way I am going to play cop for the casino without getting paid.



Except that part where you accepted $50 for your collusion.
Paigowdan
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October 2nd, 2012 at 1:34:00 AM permalink
Quote: SlackJawYokel

I am not attempting to justify my actions to anyone but I view it this way:

In almost any other business if an error is made by an employee due to incompetent on the job behavior/ performance the customer would never be asked to pay for that cost.


This would be true if the cockatil waitress or some other employee carelessly spilled coffee or a drink on your wife's White Silk blouse, permanently staining it, let's say. Or the mantenance lawn crew banged up your car with the maintenance truck. Of course they'd have to pay for such incompetence. But since the correct result of the table game's transaction indicated that you owed the house money, you have to abide by it. You really do not have much of a claim, except perhaps a lawsuit for "emotional duress and Psychic Agony" for having to pay back the small amount of money you owed them. Again, a dealer's mistake does not make the money yours if the table game transaction was correctly reconstructed.

If you want them to pay for their incompetence, (to include an allowable "How DARE they" sentiment, etc.) - then take away your valuable business from them. Depending on your level of action, they may miss your business, and it will serve them right.

Quote: Slackjawyokel

I understand that no one is perfect and errors will be made but I must have watched 20-30 incorrect payouts or collections by this particular dealer in a few hour period. These did not happen to me and what others do at the table is their business so I did not say a word. This is not an isolated error that should be corrected; it is rather gross incompetence. If I put someone and their supervisor in the field who did not know the job, I would expect it to cost me money.


Unless it was training day. You may find this hard to believe, but it is getting harder and harder for casino operators to find competent dealers to deal to - and with - the general public on low-limit tables, for minimum wage plus sh]tty tips, on $5 tables. The experienced dealers generally go to high-limit casino houses, and to the high-limit rooms, (where, in their words, "we won't have to deal with $5 whiners and for $80 a day." And I can see their point of view. If you think dealing with dealers is bad, become a dealer and deal with the low-limit players!) So, as a result, You will see a lot of break-in dealers dealing at $5 tables.

Quote: Slackjawyokel

Furthermore; by going to this particular establishment and being provided a service for a cost shouldn't they be able to actually provide that service to you.


They did, but some people may have just whined about it. I would not have complained about the money I didn't win in the first place, always returning money that I didn't win to the break-in dealer, and mentioning why. But that's just me, I guess. Break-in dealers are part and parcel of the low-limit gambling experience. You could have taken your chips to another table with a more experienced dealer at any time, as even in a break-in house, only about 20% of the dealers are break-in level. You yourself stated that the dealer was clearly a break-in dealer, making many mistakes, - and yet you stayed at the same table for ages for more punishment. I don't get this; if a table isn't working for you, you takes your chips and you finds another table....

Quote: SlackJawYokel

I can understand being new, that may be an excuse to go slower to get it right and make an occasional error but this did not reflect my experience at all. The supervisor had to basically explain how to deal the game at the table to the dealer. Is that the type of service that you would pay for anywhere else?


Yes, and I can think of one example. When I go to a brothel, I pay an extra surcharge for a "break-in" virgin, (with the pony tails and Catholic School uniform and everything, and it IS extra!!!!) - instead of getting a freakin' discount. I know when I walk into a brothel, I clap my hands and say, "Hey! I'm Action Dan - and you should pay ME to service your ladies! What a TREAT am I ! Welcome to training day!" And then the floor lady Mama-San comes out with a very frightening farm-lookin' tool, and I run out the door....Likewise, MANY casino players are under a similar delusion, where they actually think that they can set the rules of the house - should they happen to disagree with ANYTHING that management enforces, and feel that they are just such a TREAT to deal to, of all things! Go figure....

Quote: Slackjawyokel

Then to top it off the pit-boss was rude and insulted me instead of addressing the situation that should have taken priority, preventing further errors from occurring.


There may be other reasons for this attitude. They may have viewed you as being someone trying to take advantage of a break-in dealer, and a whiner, when you could have gone to another table, or had been a good sport about it all.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
RaleighCraps
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October 2nd, 2012 at 5:15:23 AM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Ok, I admit it, sometimes they do play rock music. The sex and drugs must be going on in the bathroom because I never see that.



I have no dog in this discussion, but since I cannot see you, I have to ask. Are you saying this with a straight face?

I admittedly can be one of the most clueless people in the room at times, but even I can see all the prostitutes (might be too strong a word) working the casino floor! I have seen it in 90% of the casinos I have been in, and most all of them are not dives. If I see it on an occasional visit, the dealers and suits certainly know it is there. I have been approached while at the craps table at least 6 times. Some people would consider the 'entertainment' in the party pits to be sex too. I think the pole dancing is over the top. I'm a man, and I enjoy watching it, but I think a lot of women are offended with it.

Alcohol is a drug. A legalized drug, but none the less, a drug. Some casinos give it away, some charge for it. Certainly the players are demanding it be available, so I don't blame the casino for supplying it. However, I have seen more than one person who had no business playing. The dealer could have taken every bet, and the player would not have known the difference. This is absolutely immoral behavior on the part of the casino. They are not allowing the player to play for his enjoyment. They know he is wasted, and will lose all of his money, one way or the other. That is why they let him play. Then, when he is broke and ready to leave, they will prevent him from driving home (which is a good move), but it also demonstrates they KNEW he was toasted all along.

So, let me ask you, have you never seen the girls working the casino floor, or a too drunk person being allowed to bet ?
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
MonkeyMonkey
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October 2nd, 2012 at 6:34:31 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I have no dog in this discussion, but since I cannot see you, I have to ask. Are you saying this with a straight face?



Absolutely. Let's be sure to keep this discussion in context. The "sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll" comment came from WongBo on the heals of saying "The casino preys on every human weakness they can think of." Emphasis mine.

Quote: RaleighCraps


I admittedly can be one of the most clueless people in the room at times, but even I can see all the prostitutes (might be too strong a word) working the casino floor! I have seen it in 90% of the casinos I have been in, and most all of them are not dives. If I see it on an occasional visit, the dealers and suits certainly know it is there. I have been approached while at the craps table at least 6 times.


Are you asserting that the casino is bringing in these prostitutes? I've certainly seen men with women that I'm pretty sure they're paying for, but to my knowledge these women are not on the casino payroll. I've never seen any women that appeared to be working, at least not openly, on the floor.


Quote: RaleighCraps


Some people would consider the 'entertainment' in the party pits to be sex too.


I bet those same people get their panties in a wad about Victoria's Secret commercials too. Most casinos don't have a party pit, but even those that do don't offer actual sex that I'm aware of.

Quote: RaleighCraps


I think the pole dancing is over the top. I'm a man, and I enjoy watching it, but I think a lot of women are offended with it.


Men or women can be offended by it, but that doesn't make it sex. I guess you could make a case for "Sexy", but you don't need a party pit for that, just look at the Cocktail Waitresses. But if using attractive packaging to sell a product is wrong someone's got a lot of crusading to do. I say we start with restaurant menus that show food that looks nothing like what arrives at the table.

Quote: RaleighCraps


Alcohol is a drug. A legalized drug, but none the less, a drug.


I think you're stretching a bit with this one. But whatever, you pretty much negate your own argument when you say:

Quote: RaleighCraps

Some casinos give it away, some charge for it. Certainly the players are demanding it be available, so I don't blame the casino for supplying it.


This is one of those catch-22's for casinos. It if wasn't available people would be upset, if it is people say they're taking advantage of drunks. Personally, I don't subscribe to a "We'd all be better off under a nanny state" way of thinking and would like to believe people are capable of being responsible for their own decisions, even if that decision is to impair themselves and spend all their money.

Quote: RaleighCraps

However, I have seen more than one person who had no business playing. The dealer could have taken every bet, and the player would not have known the difference.


Of course, the people running the Eye in the Sky aren't drunk and that dealer would be fired, but why quibble over details.

Quote: RaleighCraps


This is absolutely immoral behavior on the part of the casino. They are not allowing the player to play for his enjoyment. They know he is wasted, and will lose all of his money, one way or the other. That is why they let him play. Then, when he is broke and ready to leave, they will prevent him from driving home (which is a good move), but it also demonstrates they KNEW he was toasted all along.


This isn't a point worth discussing. I can tell you unequivocally that it doesn't happen that way where I work. Security takes players off games every night. Big deal, all you need to do is assert you've seen differently. I don't think we can agree on whether this happens or not, or how often if it does. But, in my opinion, the casino isn't in a position to be responsible for the behavior of the guest. I know a court of law may not see it that way if he gets in an accident and people are injured or killed. But I still think the real responsibility lies with the person making the decisions.

Quote: RaleighCraps


So, let me ask you, have you never seen the girls working the casino floor, or a too drunk person being allowed to bet ?



I have never seen a girl working the floor that I am aware of. Our gaming agents carry badges and guns and as far as I know they ARE police and they ARE present on the floor. This isn't to say prostitution can't or doesn't occur, but I'm sure if it does happen it's not with the casino's blessing.

Yes, I have seen guests too drunk to function properly. And I've seen them escorted away from the table. I'm not sure what they do with them. Maybe there's a place where they have them sleep it off, maybe they put them in a cab. I don't know. I do know if they're considered too drunk to play, they don't let them get in a car and drive away. I've even seen players that didn't seem all that tipsy cut off from getting more drinks. I'm not sure what more a place of business can be expected to do on behalf of an ostensibly autonomous citizen.

I really don't get the us vs. them attitude that many have when it comes to casinos. Do you take the same view of a retail shopping experience? Those bastards give us coupons and have sales knowing we'll come in and buy stuff we didn't intend to buy. And the packaging! Have you seen how they try to make it seem like we really need this stuff and it'll make our lives better if we just buy it? And on and on.

Even if casinos were offering free sex in the VIP cocaine room, I still don't think anyone's being forced in there at gun point and made to experience the immoral persuasive techniques of the evil casinos.

In conclusion, to bring it full circle, I suppose I have to end with: Are you asking this with a straight face?
NickyDim
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October 2nd, 2012 at 8:13:48 AM permalink
Quote:

However, I have seen more than one person who had no business playing. The dealer could have taken every bet, and the player would not have known the difference. This is absolutely immoral behavior on the part of the casino. They are not allowing the player to play for his enjoyment. They know he is wasted, and will lose all of his money, one way or the other. That is why they let him play. Then, when he is broke and ready to leave, they will prevent him from driving home (which is a good move), but it also demonstrates they KNEW he was toasted all along.


I agree with Monkey here. We are adults, we should be responsible for our actions. If I can't hold my liquor and it gets the best of my judgement who's to blame? No one but me. And if I lose all my money because the casino provided the atmosphere that this happened in...too bad, I wake up broke. It's not the casino's worry to diagnose and assess each patron to their own individual drinking abilities or judgements. If you are scared this could happen only carry a buy in large enough to NOT hurt you.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
Mission146
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October 2nd, 2012 at 9:57:01 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I have no dog in this discussion, but since I cannot see you, I have to ask. Are you saying this with a straight face?

I admittedly can be one of the most clueless people in the room at times, but even I can see all the prostitutes (might be too strong a word) working the casino floor! I have seen it in 90% of the casinos I have been in, and most all of them are not dives. If I see it on an occasional visit, the dealers and suits certainly know it is there. I have been approached while at the craps table at least 6 times. Some people would consider the 'entertainment' in the party pits to be sex too. I think the pole dancing is over the top. I'm a man, and I enjoy watching it, but I think a lot of women are offended with it.



I have had the misfortune of being approached by prostitutes in the casino on more than one occasion. I have reported them to security, however, there is very little they can do as such prostitutes tend to make their business arrangements with insinuations rather than direct statements. Further, it would not be in their business interests as long as the prostitutes are occasionally taking a few pulls here and there and are otherwise non-invasive. They will generally go away when you tell them to.

If you report them to security, security is not required to make them leave (though they should) even if they make a direct solicitation. This is true in at least Ohio and West Virginia, though I do not know about other states as they are not directly facilitating it, nor are they required to report a non-felony. Furthermore, it is usually in the best interest of the casino not to disrupt other customers by avoiding an altercation if at all possible.

The casino should also have no logical motivation to faciitate prostitution. The money that goes to the prostitute does not go to the casino, and might otherwise be spent at the machine or tables.

I am a man and it offends me. I vote with my feet by not ever walking into a casino that has such debauchery pits, pole-dancing, or is in anyway directly financially affiliated with the local strip club. I would also wash my hands in rubbing alcohol if a pole dancer came within five feet of me, I mean no offense if any of our Members are pole-dancers, which I doubt.

Quote:

Alcohol is a drug. A legalized drug, but none the less, a drug. Some casinos give it away, some charge for it. Certainly the players are demanding it be available, so I don't blame the casino for supplying it. However, I have seen more than one person who had no business playing. The dealer could have taken every bet, and the player would not have known the difference. This is absolutely immoral behavior on the part of the casino. They are not allowing the player to play for his enjoyment. They know he is wasted, and will lose all of his money, one way or the other. That is why they let him play. Then, when he is broke and ready to leave, they will prevent him from driving home (which is a good move), but it also demonstrates they KNEW he was toasted all along.



Irrelevant. The player is responsible for his/her own actions and to moderate his/her alcohol intake. The casino is not there to act as the player's Mother, particularly not when the player should theoretically be an adult. Players can also become violent and verbally abusive in such event that you cut them off, such players deserve to lose all of their money for being uncivilized and lacking decorum. I should wish that they play Roulette, bet half on Black, half on Red, and hit 00.

That said, I consume alcohol in moderation, and rarely not in moderation. However, I am a pleasant person regardless of my level of inebriation and would not gamble while impaired by alcohol, or even be in a casino at such time.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
RaleighCraps
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October 2nd, 2012 at 9:22:09 PM permalink
Monkey, please accept my apology. I believe I struck a nerve which was not my intention. Based on your fervent defense, I believe you are being honest when you say you do not think it goes on in your casino. I accept that your face was indeed straight. `:-|

I do not believe the casino pays the hookers, nor assists them in any way. Rather, I believe that some casinos 'tolerate' them. And I can't help but believe that some of the reason they tolerate them is they know a certain customer set will want to partake in said activity, and the casino still wants that player's money being played in their casino.

I think we should probably define sex, but then again a famous president's statement "I did not have sex with that woman" all hinged on the definition of sex.
I do not think the pole dancers, or party pits are Sex. As a poster said, they are sexy. I also am not insinuating that the pole dancers are engaging in any other acts. I will say with confidence, that I am positive none of them are engaging in extra acts within the confines of the casino that employs them. I am sure every casino would fire any employee on the spot.

I concede the alcohol argument. I agree it was weak at best, but I have seen plenty of people who have no business gambling, being allowed to keep playing. Again, it sounds like your casino is much more diligent about not allowing this to occur, and if so, I applaud your employer. I also agree, it is the person's responsibility to not get drunk in the first place. But after that has occurred, the casino should not allow play to continue. Some do, and it sounds like, some don't.

I don't believe I really have an US vs Them attitude. On some points, I do feel the casino's are wrong, or perhaps too greedy. 6:5 Blackjack would be one possible suggestion. single odds at craps. Having a Big 6/8 bet that pays 1:1, for the sheep to play, when they could put the same money as a Place at 7:6. Allowing a person to put money on the pass line after the point is already set, instead of suggesting they put in on the line as a self Place bet. Now I realize that all of this can be considered player responsibility to understand the game you are playing, but the house already has the edge. Do they really need to profit from player ignorance too? I think we are going to disagree on this too, which is okay. I don't need everyone to agree with my views.

As to your example of the business use of Sales coupons. I would use the example of the Big Bold $100 REBATE. Then you read the fine print, and you needed to pay cash, it had to be on a Wednesday, and you have to submit it within 24 hours of the date of the receipt. I am being a bit facetious, but let's face it, many of the rules they put in place are purely there to trip people up so they can deny the rebate. I had to fight for so many rebates I have finally decided I will not make any buying decisions, based on a rebate. I would rather pay more, than feel like I got cheated out of another rebate. And yes, I consider that to be unethical too.

My daughter leased an apartment on college campus for 2 semesters. She had to sign a lease that ran from July 1 to June 30. She had to put up 2 months as a deposit. When she told them April 1 she was not going to return (90 days notice), they informed her the contract stated she had to tell them by Feb. 1. Because she missed that date, she would forfeit the 2 month deposit. I was pissed. I still think what they are doing is illegal. To ask a college student who is just starting a semester to make a decision on the following year, is impossible. And they know it. They also know that most kids have never had a lease in their life, and most rental agreements have a 60 to 90 day notice, not 150 days. This clause is in there for one reason, and that is to cause forfeiture of the deposit. I was thinking about getting access to their records to see how many leases ended with forfeited deposits, and if the number was some very high percentage, filing a suit against them for a predatory lease. The lease terms also seemed to go against NC statutes on rental property. I am sure many of my terms here are not the right ones, but you can get the gist of my argument. I was also wondering if I was right, could that have become a class action on behalf of previous victims?
After all that, they had the nerve to send my daughter a bill for some incidentals. After the second billing I sent them a letter stating they already had a 2 month extra payment, and if my daughter received one more communication from them, we would be meeting in small claims court, regarding the lease. I never heard another word. I have always wondered if I could have prevailed, or if I was wrong, and they were in the right.

In any event, I feel this rental agency was also being unethical. But it served a lesson to my daughter to pay more attention to what she signs!
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
AlanMendelson
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October 3rd, 2012 at 1:16:42 AM permalink
Quote: SlackJawYokel

The dealer and I both had the same two pair and he had top kicker so he should have won the hand.



Do you remember the hands that both of you had?

I never played this game, but are you sure the kicker "played"??

For example in traditional Texas Holdem if the board is JJ KK A and one player has a pair of tens and the other player has a pair of 9s, its a chopped pot because you are both playing the board which is the best five card hand... JJ KK A.

As I read through the thread there seemed to have been a change of the ruling of the hand. That is why I am curious if you remember what the hand was that the dealer had and what you had.

Also, since I don't play this table game, is it different from traditional Texas Holdem?

thanks.
SlackJawYokel
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October 3rd, 2012 at 5:33:38 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Do you remember the hands that both of you had?

I never played this game, but are you sure the kicker "played"??

For example in traditional Texas Holdem if the board is JJ KK A and one player has a pair of tens and the other player has a pair of 9s, its a chopped pot because you are both playing the board which is the best five card hand... JJ KK A.

As I read through the thread there seemed to have been a change of the ruling of the hand. That is why I am curious if you remember what the hand was that the dealer had and what you had.

Also, since I don't play this table game, is it different from traditional Texas Holdem?

thanks.



I play both holdem and hi/low quite a bit and the dealer card played for sure. The friend that I was with does not play so this was our compromise. The dealer had j7 or q7 and I had 67. The board was 10/3/7/3/10. As you can see I was playing my 6 and the dealer was playing there q.

It is like holdem in the sense that you still make the best five card hand that you can, but you only play against the dealer with the bets capped and timing of bets structured.
MonkeyMonkey
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October 5th, 2012 at 3:43:19 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

Monkey, please accept my apology. I believe I struck a nerve which was not my intention. Based on your fervent defense, I believe you are being honest when you say you do not think it goes on in your casino. I accept that your face was indeed straight. `:-|



No worries. The statements I was taking exception to were WongBo's suggestion that casinos provide sex and drugs which clearly they do not. For my reply to WongBo's assertions please see my post in your poll thread
FleaStiff
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October 5th, 2012 at 4:36:25 AM permalink
Quote: SlackJawYokel

At this point we had wasted about a half hour of both my time and theirs.


That right there says it all. What sort of a casino executive thinks that a half hour of zero house edge is in the casino's best interest.
You settle things. In the casino's favor or in the player's favor but you settle things and make sure play continues because no one makes money when there is an argument going on even if eventually the casino "wins" the argument, the casino has lost all during the down time.

But never expect these executives to be all that bright. One casino executive in New Zealand is suing a con man for being defrauded of several million dollars.
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