1000x Odds!
From LVA:
In its latest move to establish itself as a gambling casino, the Riviera, which currently offers single-zero roulette and 3/2 single-deck blackjack -- has become the first hotel in the history of Las Vegas (to our and their knowledge), to offer 1000X odds on its four crap tables.
The 1000x odds apply to bets placed on the Pass Line: Once the initial bet's placed, players can back it up with up to 1,000 times their initial bet.
I can't fathom the bankroll you'd need to ride the kind of variance 1000x odds would provide.
That said, it's unclear if the 1,000x odds apply only to pass line bets, or to come/don't pass/don't come bets as well. It would seem kind of silly to not allow that.
Will definitely play this next time I am in Vegas. Any bets on how long this will last? Does this make you more willing to go to the Riveria rather than another casino?
I'll tell you what, if I have 100,000, I'm not going to play with it at the casino for an EV of 0.
I always support any rule change in the player's favor, but would have preferred to see some relief on the sucker bets, even though I don't bet them.
Quote: WizardI'm underwhelmed. They were already at 10X, which I applaud, but the additional 990X isn't going to benefit most players. I'm curious to see what the minimum wager is for the 1000X. It is also worth noting they have the stingy version of the field that pays 2 to 1 on the 12, and they pay 14 and 29 to 1 on the hop bets, while many other Strip casinos pay 15 and 30.
I always support any rule change in the player's favor, but would have preferred to see some relief on the sucker bets, even though I don't bet them.
This is kind of my point. It reminds me of a time I was at a drive thru, and they screwed up my order. I ended up waiting somewhere between 5 and 10 additional minutes to get my order (which is an eternity at a drive thru). In order to make good on the deal, the attendent gave me a coupon for a free rib sandwhich. That's great and all, but I hate rib sandwhiches....
Quote: teddysFrom LVA:
In its latest move to establish itself as a gambling casino, the Riviera, which currently offers single-zero roulette and 3/2 single-deck blackjack -- has become the first hotel in the history of Las Vegas (to our and their knowledge), to offer 1000X odds on its four crap tables.
It is not trying to establish itself as a gambling casino... its trying to promote its image as one with a headline grabbing change that will probably not affect even one percent of the players.
Its puffery, pure and simple. It grabs headlines. People with the bankroll to take advantage of it already play elsewhere and will continue to play elsewhere.
Its a headline that may bring in a ten dollar player or a slot player or something.
Quote: teddysWill definitely play this next time I am in Vegas.
Take pictures!
Quote:Any bets on how long this will last?
Two alternatives:
1) a very long time, as no one will really take advantage of it (like the 100X at CR;) or
2) until someone does make the bet a few times and wins a majority of them.
Quote:Does this make you more willing to go to the Riveria rather than another casino?
Out of curiosity only. But that alone wouldn't be enough. Still,s ince Dan's game has been aplced there, that is reason enough.
Quote: WizardI'm underwhelmed. They were already at 10X, which I applaud, but the additional 990X isn't going to benefit most players.
Well at least the restrictions are lifting on the strip. I assume the minimum will be $10, so the likelihood of a player who can throw that kind of money coming to the Riviera is almost nill.
The pressure for the other casinos to go to 10X odds may increase.
Quote: pacomartinWell at least the restrictions are lifting on the strip. I assume the minimum will be $10, so the likelihood of a player who can throw that kind of money coming to the Riviera is almost nill.
The pressure for the other casinos to go to 10X odds may increase.
Riviera is $5 minimum with $5000 max odds.
Close to a draw.
I'm glad we got the $5 minimum $5000 maximum odds question answered but I am still curious to find out if it applies to these other bets as well.Quote: teddysThat said, it's unclear if the 1,000x odds apply only to pass line bets, or to come/don't pass/don't come bets as well. It would seem kind of silly to not allow that.
Assuming someone actually takes 1000x odds, how is it true that it won't benefit most players? Wouldn't this lower the overall house edge dramatically?Quote: WizardI'm underwhelmed. They were already at 10X, which I applaud, but the additional 990X isn't going to benefit most players.
To be honest with you now that you're mentioning this I'm curious if in addition to raising the ability to place odds at 1000x means that they've changed other rules as well, making the ones you mentioned even MORE stingier or making other rules stingier as well to counter thisQuote: WizardIt is also worth noting they have the stingy version of the field that pays 2 to 1 on the 12, and they pay 14 and 29 to 1 on the hop bets, while many other Strip casinos pay 15 and 30.
No one takes 100x odds at Crown Royale? I don't know if this is true, but I do have to say that that place is pretty dingy and I usually don't like to step foot in there. It's possible that those who usually stay and play there don't have the bankroll for that kind of thing. But I have been wanting to check out their craps tables for a while.Quote: Nareed1) a very long time, as no one will really take advantage of it (like the 100X at CR;)
It's possible that the Riviera is offering 1000x odds on an even money bet just in an attempt to get more people into the casino out of curiosity who will then stay and gamble in their casino, even if it's not making that particular bet.
I don't know if I personally would be so bold to put up $5005 on a single bet (if you count the two together) but I could see myself doing 100x on a $5 or $10 just once just to feel my heart race and hear the bustle of people who notice.
Also to note: you are allowed to remove your odds at any time so it may be fun for some to put up the odds for one or two rolls of the dice just to get a reaction from the crowd and then take their money back (assuming they hadn't lost it or won at that point). But then that would make for an opportunity for someone to want to kick themselves if the shooter then rolls the point. That reminds me of a time I walked up to a $10 blackjack table and put a $500 chip on a circle. I lost the hand and bet $10 on the next hand and got a blackjack. -_-
Quote: HotBlondeAssuming someone actually takes 1000x odds, how is it true that it won't benefit most players? Wouldn't this lower the overall house edge dramatically?
Your assumption is the whole matter. Too few players would ever put up $5005. I think Whales are assumed to prefer other games and get their comps; staying in comped luxury suites is real big I understand.
The lack of true needed bankroll ... $100k? ... is just going to kill thrill-seekers.
I'll stick to my system I have on roulette thank you very much ;)
Quote: pacomartinWell at least the restrictions are lifting on the strip.
Must be no more cheating going on then?
Quote: HotBlondeNo one takes 100x odds at Crown Royale? I don't know if this is true, but I do have to say that that place is pretty dingy and I usually don't like to step foot in there.
Crown Casino Royale is a bit dingy and too much of a beer dive. Its not quite the "only drink from a bottle, not a glass" type place but its sort of close to it. The Riviera's promotion still remains a promotion. Its largely going to be ignored.
Just look at all the players who ask about Odds around town and hear figures such as 5x or 10x and complain... while only playing 2x all them selves. Many of those gripers will go to the Riviera but they will still only play 2x
Quote: PokeraddictRiviera is $5 minimum with $5000 max odds.
Better hope they have enough money to pay you if you get on a run betting $5K odds :) . I think even a $500K hit would do some serious damage to their bankroll.
Quote: HotBlonde
Assuming someone actually takes 1000x odds, how is it true that it won't benefit most players? Wouldn't this lower the overall house edge dramatically?
The house edge will never reach zero on the pass line bet, but will continue to get closer to it. On 100x odds, it's already .021%, which is $.02 (2 cents) on 100 dollars or 20 cents on 1000 dollars.
The house edge on 1000x odds is roughly 0.002%, which is roughly 2 cents on $1000. Now you could argue that is 10x less, which seems significant, however as a percentage of your investment, it is in the magnitude of thousandths of percent difference.
It's like the argument of a guy walking down the street and losing a $20 bill. If that guy only has $100 to his name, then it's pretty significant, and he might lose sleep over it. If the guy is a millionaire, he'll likely not think twice about it (or even realize it's gone)...
As been mentioned, in order to sustain some sort of session with a 1000x odds, you would want to have at least $50-100 thousand dollars. If you have that kind of money, their are far better investments to make then even money.
Many people will not bet 1000x, but at least it least leaves the option open.
I think 100x is not enough, as I often find myself wanting to bet more than $505.. I would not bet 1000x, but now with 1000x available, I will be betting 300-400x.
I think this is a better deal than the Santa Ana star bc at the star, the player is forced to tip.
Betting 400x odds without having to tip is a good deal (fyi, im a nontipper).
Ill be flying to Barona for Spring Break. Maybe ill fly to River for craps thks weekend, (i usually don't fly to gamble but for 1000x, i will for a weekend),
Can anyone confirm that the 1000x game is running right now?
At the casino royale, there is no boxman. There is a footman who will go back and forth, but no full time box.
This detail is very important. Not something u can call up the casino and ask.
Quote: Triplell
As been mentioned, in order to sustain some sort of session with a 1000x odds, you would want to have at least $50-100 thousand dollars. If you have that kind of money, their are far better investments to make then even money.
Of course, but gambling on craps, which is ultimately unbeatable, has very little to do with money anyway (I know that there are various arguments on this, but in my opinion it is not beatable if played legally). Simply deciding to play an unbeatable game is an irrational decision from a financial perspective. It's about the thrill for craps players.
Quote: FleaStiff
Just look at all the players who ask about Odds around town and hear figures such as 5x or 10x and complain... while only playing 2x all them selves. Many of those gripers will go to the Riviera but they will still only play 2x
Then the Riviera will have succeeded.
Quote: thefish2010Of course, but gambling on craps, which is ultimately unbeatable (I know that there are various arguments on this, but in my opinion it is not beatable if played legally), has very little to do with money anyway. Simply deciding to play an unbeatable game is an irrational decision. It's about the thrill for craps players.
It's a thrill to play craps, but I don't think that thrill increases proportionately with the size of your bet. That's like saying, because I make 10x as much as someone, that I enjoy my steak 10x as much as them, and would be willing to pay 10x as much as them for the same steak.
Quote: klimate10Anyone know if this game of 1000x is currently running?
This may be a dumb question, but can't you call the Riviera and ask? Or would a casino not tell you what games they are offerring?
Quote: klimate10I think 1000x odds is great.
Many people will not bet 1000x, but at least it least leaves the option open.
I think 100x is not enough, as I often find myself wanting to bet more than $505.. I would not bet 1000x, but now with 1000x available, I will be betting 300-400x.
I think this is a better deal than the Santa Ana star bc at the star, the player is forced to tip.
Betting 400x odds without having to tip is a good deal (fyi, im a nontipper).
Ill be flying to Barona for Spring Break. Maybe ill fly to River for craps thks weekend, (i usually don't fly to gamble but for 1000x, i will for a weekend),
Can anyone confirm that the 1000x game is running right now?
When is your defined Spring Break? Ill be at Barona April 5th - 8th...
As for the 1000x odds, pure gimmick that will not get used.
Bah.
Riviera came out of bankruptcy one year ago.
It is controlled by Starwood, one of the major secured creditors, and is on financial life support.
Quote: MrVNoah Acres, senior vice president of Gaming Development at Riviera Hotel & Casino: “We’re offering 1000x Odds on Craps because we treat our players fairly. Our competitors have billions in debt they have to pay off by gouging their players one bet at a time. They can’t afford to treat their players as well as we treat ours.”
Fairly?
Quote: WizardIt is also worth noting they have the stingy version of the field that pays 2 to 1 on the 12, and they pay 14 and 29 to 1 on the hop bets, while many other Strip casinos pay 15 and 30.
I always support any rule change in the player's favor, but would have preferred to see some relief on the sucker bets, even though I don't bet them.
Quote: TriplellThe house edge will never reach zero on the pass line bet, but will continue to get closer to it. On 100x odds, it's already .021%, which is $.02 (2 cents) on 100 dollars or 20 cents on 1000 dollars.
The house edge on 1000x odds is roughly 0.002%, which is roughly 2 cents on $1000. Now you could argue that is 10x less, which seems significant, however as a percentage of your investment, it is in the magnitude of thousandths of percent difference.
The house edge is 1.41% on the $5 line and 0% on the $5000... you are paying 7c for the bet whether you put on 0 or 1000 times odds. Of course with x1000 odds, it's all about the variance of that odds bets. If I wanted to drop $5000 a roll of craps, the line bet would be the toke...
Quote: thecesspitThe house edge is 1.41% on the $5 line and 0% on the $5000... you are paying 7c for the bet whether you put on 0 or 1000 times odds. Of course with x1000 odds, it's all about the variance of that odds bets. If I wanted to drop $5000 a roll of craps, the line bet would be the toke...
I used combined house edge, which makes my calculations wrong, as you should have included the $5 pass line bet, however the results wouldn't change much...
Anything about 5x odds is meaningless to me, and 5x I only play at on the $3 tables. I'm not a green chipper...
Quote: WongBoYes the max odds is 5K...
So, only 1000x the minimum line bet.
Still, I applaud them for doing something. I will definitely play.
Im going the week after, but I can go before, while you are there. Any desire to form a Caribbean Stud team? Do u have 4 friends?
Do you plan on playing Mississippi Stud?
Quote: MrVNoah Acres, senior vice president of Gaming Development at Riviera Hotel & Casino: “We’re offering 1000x Odds on Craps because we treat our players fairly. Our competitors have billions in debt they have to pay off by gouging their players one bet at a time. They can’t afford to treat their players as well as we treat ours.”
This quote actually made me laugh out loud. I'm sure RIVIERA, of all places, is going out of their way to treat the gamblers right because they can afford it! I wonder if they'll be rating a player who puts $5 on the pass line and $5000 on the odds as a $5 player, or a $5005 player.
You got to hand it to him though... he's got some huge balls to say that.
edit: I'll take $2 pass/don't with 5x any day.
And they shouldn't. Much better chance to double your money playing mucho free odds in craps.Quote: WongBoMost people that wager at the $5000 level prefer baccarat, blackjack or roulette.
For what it's worth, I don't think the Riveria is THAT bad. They have a very good selection of restaurants, the rooms and casino floor are okay, but could use some updating. It's bad for the Strip, but is nicer than most of the downtown places. The shows are terrible. I would prefer to gamble here than Casino Royale.
Quote: SOOPOOThen the Riviera will have succeeded.
The Riviera is right next to the convention center. It may not be too much to expect that a hundred people a day will stop at the Riviera before going back to their fancier digs just to see if anyone is playing $5K on the pass line.
In theory, the expected value on the 1000x odds bet at the end of the year is $0. That is a relatively inexpensive promotion where business regularly drop a million dollars on some attraction that is expected to draw in people. The only way it would cost the casino something is if the fleas that are betting there already take their money out of the slot machines, and put it on the line bet in craps. It's a pretty safe assumption that the guys playing this high end game will be new customers.
The combined house advantage of the $5 line bet and the $5000 free odds is
1.41414141% divided by 667.66666666 = 0.00211803507% or an expectation of $1 for every $47K bet.
Bet $5005 at craps with 1000x odds, expected loss is 7.5cents.
Bet $5005 at Bac, the expected loss is about $50. That's a monster difference.
1000x odds is AWESOME!!
While the casino does not make money on the odds bet itself, there is a loss in that it will cause people to bet on the odds, rather than on something where the house does make money.
It is analogous to this...if you intend to spend $100 at the supermarket, and you see a loss leader where the supermarket makes no money on the product, and you wind up spending your budget on the loss leader, the supermarket did not make money on the loss leader, but the supermarket lost money because, if not for the loss leader spending, it would have made money on the products what you would have purchased otherwise.
It's the same thing at the craps table. If you are going to bet $100 per roll (or per hand, whatever), and you would have bet it place bets of $25 each on whatever numbers, the house would have made money on those place bets. But if you instead bet on the odds, the house is technically losing money BECAUSE IT IS NOT MAKING MONEY.
I run a successful business (AlanMendelson just finished, today, shooting one of my infomercials, and we were arguing about odds at craps), and as a business owner, every minute that ticks by costs me money. Unless I am making money, I am losing money. It's the same thing for the casino. When the casino's time is going by, and people are betting odds, they run out of time to pay the bonds, the taxes, the employees, etc. Time is money. That's why it mystifies me when people in this thread knock the Riviera for giving 1000x odds. Whether or not people use it, it will definitely divert action away from the more profitable house bets. THATS A GOOD DEAL for the players.
If the house is losing money, the players are making money BECAUSE THEY"LL BE LESS LIKELY TO BET STUPID STUFF LIKE THE HORN OR THE YO!!
Quote: klimate10If the house is losing money, the players are making money BECAUSE THEY"LL BE LESS LIKELY TO BET STUPID STUFF LIKE THE HORN OR THE YO!!
The thing is, large action players enjoy playing bets on the Horn and Hardaways. All this does is appeal to the people on this website who wouldn't go to the Riviera for any other reason. It's funny, really. We all talk about wanting the best odds and best games available, and Riviera is doing it, and it didn't make me want to play there any more when I was there. I enjoyed seeing the games (single deck and single zero roulette) but I was still so grossed out by the casino that I didn't want to spend my money there.
If somebody is playing those kinds of odds, my guess is they are also making 1000 dollar Horns.
The most common form of whale craps that I see is $10,000 each on the hardways. $5000 horn high YO. $10,000 on the pass, and $5 on the odds (half joking).
Furthermore, it seems to me that odds bets make up roughly 20% of the total bets on the table. Most players make timid pass and odds bets and then get aggressive the the place bets and the prop bets. I'm gravitating to more of an outlook of judging a casino by the house edge on all its craps bets, not just the odds. Yes, that is all the sharp players care about, but what percentage of player stick strictly to line bets and odds? I'd estimate about 10%.
Quote: WizardI'm seriously considering removing references on my site to the "combined house edge" in craps, and this promotion is an illustrated example why. 1000x odds sounds ten times better than 100x odds, but is it? At a $5 pass line bet, only those willing to bet over $500 on the odds would see any benefit. I don't think the Riviera is going to see many players like that.
Furthermore, it seems to me that odds bets make up roughly 20% of the total bets on the table. Most players make timid pass and odds bets and then get aggressive the the place bets and the prop bets. I'm gravitating to more of an outlook of judging a casino by the house edge on all its craps bets, not just the odds. Yes, that is all the sharp players care about, but what percentage of player stick strictly to line bets and odds? I'd estimate about 10%.
Do "sharp" players even play craps? Any way you slice it, it's a negative expectation game. Higher odds just increase potential variance while keeping the tax one must pay to experience that variance small relative to other negative expectation games. "Only" paying 7.5 cents to experience up to $10K of positive variance on a single roll may be fun and is a good value relative to other house games, but in the long run, you will still have lost 7.5 cents.
Quote: WizardYes, that is all the sharp players care about, but what percentage of player stick strictly to line bets and odds? I'd estimate about 10%.
We know from personal testimony even some assiduous posters here do place and prop bets, so you ahve a very good point.
I wonder, though, if the Riviera hopes to attract high rollers? I mean, a man who bets thousands per rool, say with a $500 PL plus full Strip odds, might find 1000X more attractive.
I called the pit and they verified 1000x odds is going on right now.
Come say hi and play craps with me.
Alan, come to the Riviera!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll be there all weekend. 200x odds, here I come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But that's my opinion.
1000x odds is just too gimmicky. What kinda high roller wants to play at the.....Riviera. Blegh.
