Boz
Boz
  • Threads: 155
  • Posts: 5701
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
March 29th, 2016 at 3:21:39 PM permalink
http://vitalvegas.com/beware-the-deceptive-cnf-charge-at-beer-park-hexx-kitchen-at-paris-las-vegas/

First I have heard of this charge and I agree this is just another reason to not visit this place. I'm not a fan of Budweiser buying up Craft Breweries to start with and then using their muscle to gain shelf space and push small breweries out of stores. Most of the beers sold here are owned by Inbev/Bud and much better choices are available even on the strip. I honestly didn't notice the fee when I visited last month, but I'm guilty of not looking close.

The story says Hexx also charges it, so it will probably spread when they see they can get away with it.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 121
  • Posts: 10942
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
March 29th, 2016 at 3:34:26 PM permalink
Quote: Boz

http://vitalvegas.com/beware-the-deceptive-cnf-charge-at-beer-park-hexx-kitchen-at-paris-las-vegas/

First I have heard of this charge and I agree this is just another reason to not visit this place. I'm not a fan of Budweiser buying up Craft Breweries to start with and then using their muscle to gain shelf space and push small breweries out of stores. Most of the beers sold here are owned by Inbev/Bud and much better choices are available even on the strip. I honestly didn't notice the fee when I visited last month, but I'm guilty of not looking close.

The story says Hexx also charges it, so it will probably spread when they see they can get away with it.



Thanks for the post. I hate such business practices. I wonder how many customers decrease the fee from the tip... even though of course the server has nothing to do with it.....
Canyonero
Canyonero
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 509
Joined: Nov 19, 2012
March 30th, 2016 at 5:30:36 AM permalink
A question for the lawyers:

If this happened to me, I would refuse to pay the 4.7%. My reasoning would be that the business can't assume that I would read all their fineprint. Thus, they have an obligation to mention it to me when I order. If they disagree, I would invite them to call the cops.

If they take me up on my offer, where do I go from there? Could I wait for them to file the complaint, then identify myself to the cops only and tell the bar "see you in court"?
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
March 30th, 2016 at 6:26:21 AM permalink
It's also conveniently located after a statement on every menu.... Raw meat and fish. People (I) stop reading when I see this spiel. It's deliberately dishonest, I doubt they put it there by accident.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
March 30th, 2016 at 7:02:55 AM permalink
INAL...

Refuse to pay? Call the cops?

It's not worth that kind of effort, and it IS posted.


A better option is to simply ask to see the manager. Argue about it. Perhaps loudly. Then after wasting the manager's time, grumbly pay it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
  • Threads: 37
  • Posts: 3616
Joined: May 22, 2013
March 30th, 2016 at 7:40:09 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

INAL...

Refuse to pay? Call the cops?

It's not worth that kind of effort, and it IS posted.


A better option is to simply ask to see the manager. Argue about it. Perhaps loudly. Then after wasting the manager's time, grumbly pay it.

INAL either. Best not to make a fuss if you're out with friends or family trying to have a good time. BUT, if you are by yourself ( and someone is local that could make your bail ), you could jump up and down and have a hissy fit. Demand loudly to speak to the manager, show your bill to the adjacent table and ask them if they know there's a hidden 'Mob' tax for the bosses on their bill. By this time people will have their cell phones out and be filming ;-) Get creative, try NOT to get arrested.....you could be the next you-tube gone viral...;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
VladsGiants
VladsGiants
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 25
Joined: May 20, 2015
March 30th, 2016 at 8:30:17 AM permalink
Paris Beer Park? I've stayed at Paris a couple of times and didn't even know it existed. Now that I do know, I'll be sure to avoid it! :)
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
  • Threads: 117
  • Posts: 6219
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
March 30th, 2016 at 9:11:39 AM permalink
Any theories as to why it's just the Beer Park and Hexx?

(And I checked the online menus - the menu for Hexx as well as Beer Park mentions the 4.7% charge (in the same place, too - right after the disclaimer), but none of the others appear to.)
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
March 30th, 2016 at 2:12:33 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Any theories as to why it's just the Beer Park and Hexx?

(And I checked the online menus - the menu for Hexx as well as Beer Park mentions the 4.7% charge (in the same place, too - right after the disclaimer), but none of the others appear to.)



The Sugar Factory used to charge the hidden fee before it became Hexx. It's not a new thing.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
  • Threads: 117
  • Posts: 6219
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
March 30th, 2016 at 2:38:47 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

The Sugar Factory used to charge the hidden fee before it became Hexx. It's not a new thing.


I checked the online menus for the four Sugar Factory restaurants that apparently still exist.
New York and Orlando don't list any extra fees.
Chicago lists a credit card surcharge "not greater than our cost of acceptance," and a 20% service charge (read: enforced tip) for parties of 5 or more.
The Miami menu says, "All menu items are subject to a 20% service charge" - on the back of the menu, where the only other thing on the page is the logo; however, I found a Yelp review that says that this is more or less standard operating practice in Miami.

And why 4.7%? Why not a round 5%?
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
March 30th, 2016 at 3:55:04 PM permalink
What's even the purpose? Do they think they will get less flack for misleading advertising than increasing prices a little bit? It just seems absurd to have this practice instead of increasing all your prices by 5%.

Maybe 4.7% is the tax they pay the hotels? Even then... It's Vegas... Just charge more.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
March 30th, 2016 at 6:28:42 PM permalink
Speaking as a Las Vegan, I'm embarrassed that the city and state allow this. Goes to show how spineless the judges and regulators are. I'd like to hope that customers would just take their business elsewhere, but as we've seen with 6-5 blackjack, I am not counting on it.

P.S. I have half a mind to eat there and then sue to get my 4.7% back, hoping to win and set a precedent.
Last edited by: Wizard on Sep 3, 2020
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
March 30th, 2016 at 6:36:33 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

What's even the purpose? Do they think they will get less flack for misleading advertising than increasing prices a little bit? It just seems absurd to have this practice instead of increasing all your prices by 5%.

Maybe 4.7% is the tax they pay the hotels? Even then... It's Vegas... Just charge more.



I saw this on the tab the last (and I mean the last) time we ate there (was still Sugar Shack) and they claimed it's a pass-thru concession fee from Paris for them to occupy the space.

Me, I call that rent, and figure it into the overhead of my business, wherever it's located. Given their pricing (semi-expensive), I thought then and still do that it's pure crap.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
March 30th, 2016 at 6:42:39 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I saw this on the tab the last (and I mean the last) time we ate there (was still Sugar Shack) and they claimed it's a pass-thru concession fee from Paris for them to occupy the space.



Are you referring to the WoV spring fling we had there? I would have raised a stink if I noticed it.

You're absolutely right. Rent is a cost of doing business. Just pass it on in your prices, like everybody else.

p.s. Already wrote to my attorney to see if he is interested in going down in flames with me again in a principle-based lawsuit.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
March 30th, 2016 at 7:20:49 PM permalink
I'm afraid that it might be here to stay, as with resort fees, most people don't experience them often enough to get really ticked off. It's just yet another cost to an overpriced vacation.

I love the legal challenge, but it just seems to be so futile. I would compare it to forced tips on large groups, which is fine as long as it's disclosed (from my little bit of googling). Please keep us apprised.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
March 30th, 2016 at 7:24:35 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Are you referring to the WoV spring fling we had there? I would have raised a stink if I noticed it.

You're absolutely right. Rent is a cost of doing business. Just pass it on in your prices, like everybody else.

p.s. Already wrote to my attorney to see if he is interested in going down in flames with me again in a principle-based lawsuit.



Dinner that night was me, SOOPOO, Ahigh, and Brad from that VegasCard thing. It was awful; the place was under construction, changing to Hexx, the food was just B-A-D after it had been so good, and then there was this.....charge. That I had not seen on previous visits there, FWIW, and I'm a bill-checker, though it's possible I missed it before.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
March 30th, 2016 at 7:45:08 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

I love the legal challenge, but it just seems to be so futile. I would compare it to forced tips on large groups, which is fine as long as it's disclosed (from my little bit of googling). Please keep us apprised.



My lawyer has shown interest already and is looking for a hook to hang our hat on. Surely if there is a "disclose" law there should be something stating the disclosure must be reasonable. If there were no standards, the restaurant could use a font so small you would need a microscope to read it, like the micro-printing on US currency.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11596
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
March 30th, 2016 at 8:06:02 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard



p.s. Already wrote to my attorney to see if he is interested in going down in flames with me again in a principle-based lawsuit.



I really respect what the two of you did in the last lawsuit. If you are going to fight another battle please make it against resort fees. Once the government cleaned up the airlines and required the coupling of fees, I was sure someone would follow that up and do the same with the hotels.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
March 30th, 2016 at 9:33:01 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I really respect what the two of you did in the last lawsuit. If you are going to fight another battle please make it against resort fees. Once the government cleaned up the airlines and required the coupling of fees, I was sure someone would follow that up and do the same with the hotels.



Thank you. I hate resort fees too, passionately. My lawyer and I had many Emails and conversations about a strategy but couldn't find any good legal argument to frame our case on. In every case I looked at, I thought the resort fee was disclosed fairly early in the booking process. I'm still open to any situation where a hotel will let you book a room at one price, but surprises you with the resort fee when you check in.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
March 30th, 2016 at 10:18:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thank you. I hate resort fees too, passionately. My lawyer and I had many Emails and conversations about a strategy but couldn't find any good legal argument to frame our case on. In every case I looked at, I thought the resort fee was disclosed fairly early in the booking process. I'm still open to any situation where a hotel will let you book a room at one price, but surprises you with the resort fee when you check in.


How did the airline fees case get off the ground? Maybe a similar strategy can be used against resort and concessionaire fees. I think of it as racketeering. What option do consumer's have to opt out? If you want to stay or eat, the operators have conspired together to gouge your wallet.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
March 31st, 2016 at 6:12:57 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My lawyer has shown interest already and is looking for a hook to hang our hat on. Surely if there is a "disclose" law there should be something stating the disclosure must be reasonable. If there were no standards, the restaurant could use a font so small you would need a microscope to read it, like the micro-printing on US currency.


Disclose law? Hmmmm...

Should any requirement for disclosure also apply to the service charge for large parties? I.E. Is the fine print on the menu good enough for that? If so, why? Is it merely because that's an "established thing" that people know about and expect? If so, when does something like that (or this BS concession fee) become typical so that disclosure is unnecessary?

For that matter, is sales tax expected, or does it have disclosure requirements?

OK. Let's focus on sales tax a moment.

Here in NJ and probably most (all?) states, businesses are required to post their state issued Certificate of Authority to collect sales tax, somewhere conspicuous, usually near the door or cashier. Most restaurants post it right next to their Health Department inspection certificate - which, depending on the inspection result, many restaurants would rather NOT disclose...

That said, there should be a similar notice in an equally convenient and conspicuous location, in a type size at least as big as the smaller of these two certificates, for the BS charges.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
March 31st, 2016 at 6:17:55 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

How did the airline fees case get off the ground? Maybe a similar strategy can be used against resort and concessionaire fees. I think of it as racketeering. What option do consumer's have to opt out? If you want to stay or eat, the operators have conspired together to gouge your wallet.



The airlines are regulated by the federal government, which is more strongly regulated. Nevada is a libertarian-leaning and majority one-industry state. What it comes down is the hotels and casinos pretty much do as they please.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
March 31st, 2016 at 6:22:20 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Disclose law? Hmmmm...



That's a fair point, that other "add-on" fees had to start somewhere. In that case of sales tax, they never asked to have to collect that. I'm personally okay with the piggyback method that it gets charged. As for those automatic tips for large parties, it is my understanding the customer is not required to pay it. If he says he got lousy service and wishes to only pay 10%, I think any restaurant will oblige, and perhaps have to.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
March 31st, 2016 at 6:39:10 AM permalink
My point was, since something so universal and routine as sales tax needs disclosure, certainly the concession fee needs to be disclosed as well. And in an equally a conspicuous method.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Joeman
Joeman
  • Threads: 36
  • Posts: 2410
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
March 31st, 2016 at 7:25:44 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

If you are going to fight another battle please make it against resort fees. Once the government cleaned up the airlines and required the coupling of fees, I was sure someone would follow that up and do the same with the hotels.

FYI, a Bill doing just that was introduced in the US Senate last month.

I figured this should merit its own thread here.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 4300
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
March 31st, 2016 at 8:20:05 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Dinner that night was me, SOOPOO, Ahigh, and Brad from that VegasCard thing. It was awful; the place was under construction, changing to Hexx, the food was just B-A-D after it had been so good, and then there was this.....charge. That I had not seen on previous visits there, FWIW, and I'm a bill-checker, though it's possible I missed it before.


There was an earlier meetup at Sugar House as well; maybe back in 2013 or 2014? It was the Wizard's birthday and I don't think you were there, BBB.

I don't recall the charge that time, but our group was pretty big (probably 15 or 20 people) and I just threw in a bunch of cash; didn't look too closely at the receipt.

I did eat there by myself later in my trip (I was staying at Paris) and paid with rewards credits and I am also a bill checker. I think I would have noticed it that time.

Personally I find it hard to be too outraged. Stuff is expensive in Vegas. Stuff on the Strip is outlandishly expensive. I understand the deceptive business angle, and think it would be more honest to just raise their prices. But whatever, not going to get out the pitchforks. More important things in life, etc.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
March 31st, 2016 at 6:53:17 PM permalink
It's just enough to be inconspicuous. Only $4.70 on a $100 check. If you are spending that much you likely won't notice. But it adds up for the restaurant. This is why class action suits were invented.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
March 31st, 2016 at 7:24:22 PM permalink
Update: My attorney found some case law and says I have a good argument in court.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
  • Threads: 121
  • Posts: 3493
Joined: Jul 3, 2015
March 31st, 2016 at 11:00:02 PM permalink
Try looking at rocketmiles.com

They list rates to book a room then somehow when you pay it shows after the fact that an additional 80 plus dollars is due in cash at the hotel
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
boymimbo
boymimbo
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
March 31st, 2016 at 11:27:31 PM permalink
Geez, Wizard, who is your lawyer, Jackie Chiles?
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Joeman
Joeman
  • Threads: 36
  • Posts: 2410
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
April 1st, 2016 at 4:53:48 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Update: My attorney found some case law and says I have a good argument in court.

Go get 'em, Wiz!

Quote: boymimbo

Geez, Wizard, who is your lawyer, Jackie Chiles?

Lol! "Your honor, a 4.7% Concession Fee is lewd, lascivious, salacious, outrageous!"
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
Gabes22
Gabes22
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 1427
Joined: Jul 19, 2011
April 1st, 2016 at 6:13:06 AM permalink
This is the most public yet of my many humiliations
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
Gabes22
Gabes22
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 1427
Joined: Jul 19, 2011
April 1st, 2016 at 6:23:59 AM permalink
Wizard, I, for one, wold love to hear the rationale your lawyer found, but obviously I understand if you can't comment on it, due to it being an ongoing legal matter
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
boymimbo
boymimbo
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
April 1st, 2016 at 12:15:29 PM permalink
What restaurants are doing when they charge the CRF in Nevada is violating NRS 598.0915 - Deceptive trade practices:

Quote: Nevada Statutes


NRS 598.0915  “Deceptive trade practice” defined.  A person engages in a “deceptive trade practice” if, in the course of his or her business or occupation, he or she:
...
13.  Makes false or misleading statements of fact concerning the price of goods or services for sale or lease, or the reasons for, existence of or amounts of price reductions.
...
15.  Knowingly makes any other false representation in a transaction.



NRS 598.0971 deals with the penalties and procedures in dealing with those who have deceptive trade practices.

I would think that the establishment would have to advertise the fact that they have these fees in fairly large print on their menus.

Planet Hollywood has an establishment that does the same thing. The Cabo Wabo shows it in small print on their menu. Whether the font is large enough to be counter to deceptive trade is unknown.

The 4.7% fee is also printed in small print on the menu for Beer Park in the section called "sides" (beerpark.com/menu).
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
April 6th, 2016 at 9:32:37 PM permalink
TeddyS and I had dinner and drinks at the Beer Park yesterday. Other than the dreaded 4.7% franchise fee, it was a nice place. Perfect view of strip and bellagio fountains. Young cute waitresses in tight fitting t-shirts (like at any Hooters).

To get to the point, when I asked/complained about the concession fee the manager took it off the bill with little argument.

I'd still like to fight this, but am not sure how.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 4300
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
April 7th, 2016 at 7:14:16 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

TeddyS and I had dinner and drinks at the Beer Park yesterday. Other than the dreaded 4.7% franchise fee, it was a nice place. Perfect view of strip and bellagio fountains. Young cute waitresses in tight fitting t-shirts (like at any Hooters).

To get to the point, when I asked/complained about the concession fee the manager took it off the bill with little argument.

I'd still like to fight this, but am not sure how.


Nice, way to fight the man!

Unfortunately, hard to file suit if they took the charge off :p
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
April 9th, 2016 at 3:17:43 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Nice, way to fight the man!

Unfortunately, hard to file suit if they took the charge off :p



Thanks. There still may be ways. I'm supposed to meet with my attorney next week to talk about it.

Here are some pictures from the occasion. Click on any of them for a larger version.


Here is the menu, along with a ruler I took along. Note the paragraph in the bottom right.


Here is a close up of the lower right paragraph. The blurriness is not the fault of my camera or hands. It really is that blurry. You can ask TeddyS.


Here is the receipt before complaining.


And after.
Last edited by: Wizard on Apr 14, 2016
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 14th, 2016 at 9:15:16 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks. There still may be ways. I'm supposed to meet with my attorney next week to talk about it.

Here are some pictures from the occasion. Click on any of them for a larger version.


Here is the menu, along with a ruler I took along. Note the paragraph in the bottom right.


Here is a close up of the lower right paragraph. The blurriness is not the fault of my camera or hands. It really is that blurry. You can ask TeddyS.


Here is the receipt before complaining.


And after.



FWIW, the image of the "before" receipt, when clicked on, links to the menu and ruler, not to a receipt picture.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
  • Jump to: