Discussion II about the Suspension List
I probably wouldn't be acquainted with a hefty chunk of his participation on the forum, since I don't follow blackjack discussions, and you wouldn't get me into the "2016 Election" thread here at the point of a gun.*Quote: Rigondeaux...<SNIP>...
One of the main functions of this, or any other forum is social. Of course people are disposed to favor a poster who is entertaining and kind.
Will I stop posting here? No. But I'll post less, since I sometimes posted in response to KJ and I'll read it less since he was one of my favorite posters and I can't read posts he doesn't make.
*I'd rather be shot than buried alive in an anthill; just a personal preference.
I'm sure you're used to that.Quote: TwoFeathersATLHe has yet to answer several serious questions I asked.
Norm, you keep saying you had nothing to do with KJ's banning, but he got himself banned. Doesn't seem accurate/fair to me. Would it be fair to say you brought all of this upon yourself?
KJ had difficulties at FOUR forums. Do you really think he didn't bring this on himself? RS, yes I brought it on myself -- by being an admin. I ignored his posts at both BJTF and here until he got completely out of control. It wasn't enough to disagree with the opinions of others. He had to claim, repeatedly, on multiple forums, that there was some sort of agenda to rip off players. He posted that I was part of this conspiracy simply by being the admin of a site and failing to demand that everyone agree with him. I hadn't even read the thread where he went off-kilter until he was well into tirade-mode.
It doesn't matter what I say or Mike says. We both say I never suggested any ban. No one believes it here. This place simply isn't fact or evidence based. This thread is more and more resembling the politics sub-forum.
And ZMF and T3 have NEVER "lied" that I have seen. NEVER. I disagree with many things they have said. That does not mean they are liars. Now you are continuing KJ's false accusations.
He didn't just roll in, he's been selectively posting since 2010.Quote: RigondeauxI've tried to absorb this as I am a KewlJ fan, but not a BJ guy and barely know who Norm is. It's pretty amazing that some guy could just roll into a forum he doesn't post on and get a valuable contributor who has positive relationships and a huge investment in time banned, then just roll back out
.
Selectively posting since 2010. Should be his tag line.
What did you suggest?Quote: QFIT
It doesn't matter what I say or Mike says. We both say I never suggested any ban.
Quote: QFITWell, MathExtreme was wrong. You don't end an argument by not posting, as can be seen here.
KJ had difficulties at FOUR forums. Do you really think he didn't bring this on himself? RS, yes I brought it on myself -- by being an admin. I ignored his posts at both BJTF and here until he got completely out of control. It wasn't enough to disagree with the opinions of others. He had to claim, repeatedly, on multiple forums, that there was some sort of agenda to rip off players. He posted that I was part of this conspiracy simply by being the admin of a site and failing to demand that everyone agree with him. I hadn't even read the thread where he went off-kilter until he was well into tirade-mode.
It doesn't matter what I say or Mike says. We both say I never suggested any ban. No one believes it here. This place simply isn't fact or evidence based. This thread is more and more resembling the politics sub-forum.
And ZMF and T3 have NEVER "lied" that I have seen. NEVER. I disagree with many things they have said. That does not mean they are liars. Now you are continuing KJ's false accusations.
Is red 7 or Hilo an ultra weak count?
Do any professional players use either count?
HiLo vs Tthree system, is it even possible for Tthree to make 5x the EV as HiLo player? What if HiLo player is tracking 2 tables simultaneously? All things being equal (BR, ROR, game/rules, etc).
Quote: AxelWolfWhat did you suggest?
How many times do I have to answer the same question? We had a discussion of the problems of forum management. I said that KJ was making false accusations against others; that I thought this was starting to look like a budding forum war; and that these were personal attacks. This is Mike's forum, not mine.
Look, I have posted about BJ at AOL, Compuserve, and USENET before there was a web. I moderated an AI forum on the ARPANet long before that. I didn't suspect that a suspension would occur as that's not something I'm used to. The ARPANet forum had one suspension in its history. USENET had zero. The suspension list on BJTF is tiny. It's encyclopedic here. That's not to say that I think it shouldn't be. From what I've seen, it may not be long enough. But, it's not something I'm used to.
As for posting about BJ here, I tried a couple times and was attacked. It was suggested many posts back that I prove myself here. Had a good laugh over that one.
Quote: QFITAs for posting about BJ here, I tried a couple times and was attacked. It was suggested many posts back that I prove myself here. Had a good laugh over that one.
Is the person who "attacked" you still here?
Have you tried posting ANYTHING about Blackjack here since Kwelj left us?
Are you going to participate in this forum or just rail on against everyone who may not like what happened? Doing both is possible; it has been done before and will be again...
Flash has absolutely criticized HiLo. And, he has absolutely been called out on this by many people innumerable times. I have personally contradicted him. BUT, it is not a lie, it is an opinion. One gaining more credence as rules deteriorate. Now, what IS a lie is the claim that KJ made here and elsewhere, interminably, that NO ONE contradicted FLASH. That I never contradicted FLASH. Indeed, he stated that I purposely allowed misleading statements to be made to make money off of new players. This is a vile, shameful lie.
Now, can you make 5x what a straight counter makes? Yep. The post I made today about a free software update in the area of partial hole-carding speaks to one such area (albeit with some purposeful vagueness).
Look, BJ rules are going down the tubes. It is becoming more and more difficult to wander around Vegas as a straight counter without more sophisticated tools. I applaud efforts to investigate new areas. Do all such investigations payoff? No, off course not. But, trying to squelch such discussions by calling those that engage in such investigations liars and frauds, and traveling from site to site castigating these people is just plain wrong. Trying to squelch opinions you don't like is wrong. I censor personal attacks. I don't censor opinions.
To paraphrase Pink Floyd: "Hey, 2F! Leave them chickens alone!"Quote: TwoFeathersATL
What does that have to do with chickens anyway?
Quote: WizardofnothingNorm just stop rehashing and drop it I'm starting to think you love drama- let it gos don't visit the thread and just post normally on here
The last two posts I responded to specifically asked me questions. If I don't respond, people post that I refuse/fail to respond. If I do respond, I am ordered to stop responding (along with another peronsal attack). Some forum.
Don't want to see him post anymore on this subject?
Easy: just drop the whole thing and move on.
Perhaps it would be more valid to conclude that after three days or weeks, but you didn't even wait three hours to reply. And then the first thing you post is a blanket insult to *the entire forum*?Quote: QFITWell, MathExtreme was wrong. You don't end an argument by not posting, as can be seen here.
I don't know what you think you're owed (respect? deference?), but you certainly won't get it by repeatedly complaining about how everyone's always attacking you. As a fellow gaming business owner, I'd think your bottom line would be better served by staying above the fray. Every business has detractors. Very few CEOs spend their time chasing those detractors around the Internet and engaging them. If you had a board of directors, they'd be telling you to cut it the heck out.Quote: QFITThis place simply isn't fact or evidence based.
Quote: QFITWhen has T3 ever said Red7 or HiLo is weak or no pros use these counts. You are continuing KJ's false accusations and calling T3 a liar. Also, that wasn't T3's claim. It was far more complex than that. In fact, it wasn't a comparison to HiLo whatsoever. He also has admitted one calculation error. People are allowed to make errors, particularly in the midst of creating new methodologies. To call him a liar is a lie in itself.
Flash has absolutely criticized HiLo. And, he has absolutely been called out on this by many people innumerable times. I have personally contradicted him. BUT, it is not a lie, it is an opinion. One gaining more credence as rules deteriorate. Now, what IS a lie is the claim that KJ made here and elsewhere, interminably, that NO ONE contradicted FLASH. That I never contradicted FLASH. Indeed, he stated that I purposely allowed misleading statements to be made to make money off of new players. This is a vile, shameful lie.
Now, can you make 5x what a straight counter makes? Yep. The post I made today about a free software update in the area of partial hole-carding speaks to one such area (albeit with some purposeful vagueness).
Look, BJ rules are going down the tubes. It is becoming more and more difficult to wander around Vegas as a straight counter without more sophisticated tools. I applaud efforts to investigate new areas. Do all such investigations payoff? No, off course not. But, trying to squelch such discussions by calling those that engage in such investigations liars and frauds, and traveling from site to site castigating these people is just plain wrong. Trying to squelch opinions you don't like is wrong. I censor personal attacks. I don't censor opinions.
ZMF has stated those counts are ultra weak and no professional uses them. He's stated they are for recreational players who just want to break even. Your forum is FILLED with that nonsense that ZMF posts.
Tthree has stated his system can make 5x the EV of a HiLo player. Actually, I think he was saying it was 5x the EV of a HiLo player who can track TWO TABLES simultaneously. He's not talking about hole-carding, next-carding, or anything like that. He's talking about his advanced card counting system. Had Tthree said something like, "A hole-carder can make 5x+ the EV of a HiLo player", that'd be fine.....but, he was referring to his counting method.
I'll ask again -- can someone using a 'Tthree count' (or ANY count) make 5x the EV of a HiLo player, all things being equal (BR, ROR, game/rules, etc)? Under regular circumstances (ie: not some stupid unplayable game like a 6-deck cut in half // 6:5 BJ // 1-2 spread // etc.).
What I don't understand is why you permit ZMF and Tthree to make such wild claims. I don't know why you allow them to make such claims, repeatedly, hurting new players. There must be an explanation -- I don't know what it is -- but KJ probably put 2 and 2 together and concluded: Norm profits from selling software, ZMF and Tthree push players to use more advanced systems (like HO2 w/ASC), which is why Norm allows them to make the claims they make, because he profits from it.
As far as why this is permitted on BJTF, your guess is as good as mine....
Quote: RSZMF has stated those counts are ultra weak and no professional uses them. He's stated they are for recreational players who just want to break even. Your forum is FILLED with that nonsense that ZMF posts.
Tthree has stated his system can make 5x the EV of a HiLo player. Actually, I think he was saying it was 5x the EV of a HiLo player who can track TWO TABLES simultaneously. He's not talking about hole-carding, next-carding, or anything like that. He's talking about his advanced card counting system. Had Tthree said something like, "A hole-carder can make 5x+ the EV of a HiLo player", that'd be fine.....but, he was referring to his counting method.
I'll ask again -- can someone using a 'Tthree count' (or ANY count) make 5x the EV of a HiLo player, all things being equal (BR, ROR, game/rules, etc)? Under regular circumstances (ie: not some stupid unplayable game like a 6-deck cut in half // 6:5 BJ // 1-2 spread // etc.).
What I don't understand is why you permit ZMF and Tthree to make such wild claims. I don't know why you allow them to make such claims, repeatedly, hurting new players. There must be an explanation -- I don't know what it is -- but KJ probably put 2 and 2 together and concluded: Norm profits from selling software, ZMF and Tthree push players to use more advanced systems (like HO2 w/ASC), which is why Norm allows them to make the claims they make, because he profits from it.I'm not saying that is the case, just what KJ probably concluded.
As far as why this is permitted on BJTF, your guess is as good as mine....
As they say for crime -- means, motive, and opportunity is all there. Your post seems to add up, but I'm going with your spoiler because, all I know, is Kewj established a pretty sound cred here. That counts for something, as far as I'm concerned.
Who else did what, I don't know.
Quote: QFITOK., I will stop defending myself and stop defending the other people maliciously and incorrectly called liars a few posts back. You guys will continue your attacks for months, years, who knows. Let's see if you give the same lecture to them.
Though you are held in high esteem by many in the blackjack community, based on personal references I have read here vouching for you, your presence or absence from this board is of very little consequence at this point. If you stay and continue to only talk in this thread, you'll still hear the noise from some of us because you were a party to the end of Kewlj's membership here. That noise will fade to silence eventually but I would contend it would fade faster if you posted less here and more in actual threads where you share your expertise. People may still disagree with you, but they will see your value. If you just up and leave without adding value to the forum with your expertise, your presence won't be missed all that much...certainly less than many others who have left willingly or unwillingly.
Most of us here aren't experts. I will probably never be a card counter. I do enjoy reading about counting and all of the different things that people do to gain a real edge over the casinos. The casinos, in general, beat me at gambling. It is good to know that some develop the skills to beat them. I am on the AP's side!
Aaahhh! Coded messages ;-)Quote: AxelWolfI'm sure you're used to that.
RR+1
This does seem to be that commonplace sort of disagreement. I'm not surprised KewlJ had conflicts at multiple forums. There are guys who have conflicts at every single sports betting forum they post at for the same reasons, and they aren't doing anything wrong. They won't abide touts, or what you might call tout-lites. That is people who might not sell picks professionally, but make dubious (to be nice) claims about their methods and winnings. Same in poker.
You can really set a newbie up for some serious damage, perhaps to his entire life, if you convince them you can hit 60% in the NFL by spouting crap like "Brady is going to be motivated!" and "durr home dogs." Some people, like Fezzik, have made money on sports and have a few worthwhile things to say, but mix in a lot of trash. To be clear, just because some of what you say is right, doesn't mean you aren't saying more stuff that is damaging.
So, some people feel like such claims must constantly be refuted and they usually get a lot nastier about it than KewlJ did.
Does the host of a forum have a responsibility to keep a lid on that stuff? I don't nec. think so. I remember Anthony Curtis taking a ton of heat for having Fezzik and some other tout on a forum. I thought people were being unfair to Curtis then. He seems like a good guy to me. But it's a credible point of view to say a forum has a responsibility to suppress bad info that might hurt people.
Again, maybe KJ was totally wrong and the guys in question were giving awesome advice and had no intentions to profit off of it. I don't have the ability to judge that.
But, it's becoming clear to me KJ was making what he considered to be legitimate criticisms of a public forum and of public claims. I don't think he was like, "I have a personal dislike of these people, so I'm going to go around trying to destroy their reputations with lies."
I'm extra skeptical now because of all this "personal attacks" stuff.
Quote: QFITI am responding to a personal attack suggesting that I and others are frauds. I wouldn't have to do that if this site barred personal attacks.
Seems like a suggestion that even more posters should be reprimanded for... what? Cuz nobody's made a personal attack over the past few pages. And until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume KJ didn't slander anybody.
It is loss for every other participant here for KJ to be gone due to expressing such criticisms, whatever private agreements might exist. The only beneficiary would seem to be a guy who doesn't post here (OK, is extremely, extremely selective).
A very poor outcome in my view. I think those who control the forum should look into rectifying it.
Quote: riginduxDoes the host of a forum have a responsibility to keep a lid on that stuff? I don't nec. think so. I remember Anthony Curtis taking a ton of heat for having Fezzik and some other tout on a forum. I thought people were being unfair to Curtis then. He seems like a good guy to me. But it's a credible point of view to say a forum has a responsibility to suppress bad info that might hurt people.
I think the host of a forum should ABSOLUTELY have the duty to suppress(?) bad and misleading information, especially on a forum that is aimed at helping people gamble smarter/better (ie: both BJTF and WOV).
Send me whatever you want sent to him and I'll forward it along.Quote: AxelWolfDoes anybody know how to contact KJ?
Like I could trust a guy who mainly plays and focuses on blackjack after reading all this.Quote: RomesSend me whatever you want sent to him and I'll forward it along.
Hmmm... I guess you have played some AP VP and slots, so Ill think about it, but I'm watching you.Ͼ)(Ͽ
Quote: AxelWolfLike I could trust a guy who mainly plays and focuses on blackjack after reading all this.
Hmmm... I guess you have played some AP VP and slots, so Ill think about it, but I'm watching you.Ͼ)(Ͽ
RR, another +1 ;-)
Hey, somebody got to define the scale on the upside, and on the downside...
Not sure why you'd want to send him this, but okay =P.Quote: AxelWolfLike I could trust a guy who mainly plays and focuses on blackjack after reading all this.
Hmmm... I guess you have played some AP VP and slots, so Ill think about it, but I'm watching you.Ͼ)(Ͽ
(I'm definitely closing my curtains tonight)
Quote: RigondeauxBut I'd like for anybody to post a quote of KJ slandering someone on WoV, if it exists.
As best I can tell, the whole mess which ended with KJ being nuked was started by this post.
Now, the "truce" between QFIT and kewlj did exist before this post. Said truce apparently prevented them from posting anything about each other and I guess prevented kewlj from posting anything about BJTF (which is run by QFIT aka Norm W.)
I was absent from WOV for several months (roughly mid-2015 to about a month ago). So I don't know what happened in those months; I don't recall KewlJ mentioning anything about BJTF in my time of active posting before that absence. Whatever the case, the truce was made and agreed to by both parties and the Wiz, and kewlj violated it somehow. Maybe it wasn't the post above (there is no link on the Suspension List page next to KJ's initial 3-day suspension for truce violation). I could have missed something else where KJ posted about QFIT or BJTF and violated said truce. As I recall from my browsing of the forums over the past couple of months, there was no alleged slander or alleged lies from kewlj about QFIT and BJTF until after that initial suspension from truce violation. Kewlj did say lots of very negative things about QFIT and BJTF after thing whole thing blew up, I'm not going to dig up links but it's all in the old "discussion about the suspension list" thread and most people posting here I'm sure read them.
Anyway, the whole thing is a damn shame. Whatever happened at other forums, pretty much everyone here was unaware of any alleged "feuds" until KJ was suspended and later banned. He was a valuable member. I will miss his contributions. I wish him good luck in the future and that hopefully he will post here again some day.
Quote: IbeatyouracesAll of this nonsense started from debates about what count newbies should learn first. While they're getting their 1%, the real AP's are getting their 50%+. Just ask Eliot.
Right. I was just trying to trace the history of the "nonsense" on WoV.
Quote: AcesAndEightsRight. I was just trying to trace the history of the "nonsense" on WoV.
In all fairness to Norm, he was just trying to squash these silly arguments but got caught up in it as collateral damage.
He got 'caught up in it'? I don't do the other forums, so I have no knowledge about what goes on there, and why should I? I thought, my thoughts are always suspect, that QFit came here on some Crusade against evil in his own mind. That's OK I guess, I have been on a crusade or two. My experience has been you really, really, need to pick your crusades very carefully. You could look back and decide you were fighting on the wrong side of the issue. Fighting valiantly is a virtue, sometimes....Quote: IbeatyouracesIn all fairness to Norm, he was just trying to squash these silly arguments but got caught up in it as collateral damage.
I will concur that any debate, article or discussion on card counting systems, card counting questions or card counting techniques at blackjack is squeezing water from a rock in today's advantage play waterfall universe. It's not just a question of which card counting system is good for beginners. No beginning or inquisitive player should be encouraged to count cards. I have no idea why the obsession with card counting blackjack continues in the AP community, or why it is discussed across various message boards. Grosjean was right (of course) about salamanders. In other words, I don't know why KJ continues to defend his extraordinarily weak AP methodology or why Norm hosts a board devoted to discussing this extraordinarily weak AP methodology. I have seen APs earn more in one hour than KJ claims he earns in a year.Quote: IbeatyouracesAll of this nonsense started from debates about what count newbies should learn first. While they're getting their 1%, the real AP's are getting their 50%+. Just ask Eliot.
How many people are there in the world working minimum wage jobs ($8.50?) per hour when they could take a massive jump up to say $30-$50/hour (not even near the top potential EV) playing blackjack? Blackjack is a completely relevant way of making money and "AP'ing" the casino.
Whilst it might not be the most lucrative of all AP activities, it should certainly not be discarded. I guess in my opinion I'd be more confused if we STOPPED talking about blackjack on any forums.
Quote: chickenmanThat was IT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Quote: AcesAndEightsAs best I can tell, the whole mess which ended with KJ being nuked was started by this post.
Most excellent tempest in a teapot.
That was it, yes.
Quote: Gabes22I must issue a formal apology to QFIT. I had been hard on him about his intentions of coming to the site. When I went back and read through everything back to what he first posted when he came back here (ignoring all the 2010 posts) he seemed to come here in an informative manner with the blackjack heat map and all. and while the argument stemmed from elsewhere I am 100% convinced he didn't come here to get KJ nuked.
I don't think that he came here to do that, but it is what ended up happening. His contributions, while relevant, are minimal at best and the crux of the argument, as Teliot put it, is which of two weak methods of counting should someone use? KJ wanted them to get good at one first and then add depth; QFIT wanted to add depth immediately. I guess I'd like to know who makes money off of what, if any...that could tell a lot about why it got so heated here and other places...has someone monetized their advice?
I was looking forward to QFIT posting on other threads as many have encouraged him to do...not so much...
Quote: RonCI don't think that he came here to do that, but it is what ended up happening. His contributions, while relevant, are minimal at best and the crux of the argument, as Teliot put it, is which of two weak methods of counting should someone use? KJ wanted them to get good at one first and then add depth; QFIT wanted to add depth immediately. I guess I'd like to know who makes money off of what, if any...that could tell a lot about why it got so heated here and other places...has someone monetized their advice?
I was looking forward to QFIT posting on other threads as many have encouraged him to do...not so much...
First, thank you Gabes.
Now, let me try to explain this one more time. I was NOT on any side in the count debate. I tend not to read threads like that as I think they are boring. Different strokes(counts) for different folks. Besides, my focus for years has been on non-counting AP methods. I generally advise KO(REKO) or HiLo; but provide info on all counts on my sites. But, it depends on the person as everyone's abilities, goals, and circumstances are different. There are posters that insist on simple counts and posters that insist on complex counts. Both are wrong. I let the debate continue, because I do not censor opinions. I censor personal attacks. But, unable to convince, KJ became more and more belligerent insisting that those that didn't agree with him had an agenda to purposely mislead new players to take money from them. Indeed, he claimed here that BJTF was a voodoo site and that I purposely allowed bad posts to somehow make money. These were baseless accusations, and no one was taking money from anyone. They were merely stating their opinions. He has now taken these accusations to FIVE forums, two new ones since he was nuked here. I did not follow him to the new forums.
Now, let me repeat this one more time: NEVER did I say that people should add more depth, either immediately or EVER. It is up to the person.
Now, would people stop putting words in my mouth and motivations in my head that don't exist?
Seriously, if you want to know what I actually say or think, I have the oldest blackjack site on the web, have more blackjack pages than anyone else on the web (including a 500+ page free book and tens of thousands of stat pages -- all free), and over 20,000 posts. Read what I actually said instead of what some guy said I said. Or, just e-mail me or call me. My e-mail and phone number have been public for 20 years.
"these are not the droids you are looking for"Quote: QFITNow, would people stop putting words in my mouth and motivations in my head that don't exist?
Quote: QFITFirst, thank you Gabes.
Now, let me try to explain this one more time. I was NOT on any side in the count debate. I tend not to read threads like that as I think they are boring. Different strokes(counts) for different folks. Besides, my focus for years has been on non-counting AP methods. I generally advise KO(REKO) or HiLo; but provide info on all counts on my sites. But, it depends on the person as everyone's abilities, goals, and circumstances are different. There are posters that insist on simple counts and posters that insist on complex counts. Both are wrong. I let the debate continue, because I do not censor opinions. I censor personal attacks. But, unable to convince, KJ became more and more belligerent insisting that those that didn't agree with him had an agenda to purposely mislead new players to take money from them. Indeed, he claimed here that BJTF was a voodoo site and that I purposely allowed bad posts to somehow make money. These were baseless accusations, and no one was taking money from anyone. They were merely stating their opinions. He has now taken these accusations to FIVE forums, two new ones since he was nuked here. I did not follow him to the new forums.
Now, let me repeat this one more time: NEVER did I say that people should add more depth, either immediately or EVER. It is up to the person.
Now, would people stop putting words in my mouth and motivations in my head that don't exist?
Seriously, if you want to know what I actually say or think, I have the oldest blackjack site on the web, have more blackjack pages than anyone else on the web (including a 500+ page free book and tens of thousands of stat pages -- all free), and over 20,000 posts. Read what I actually said instead of what some guy said I said. Or, just e-mail me or call me. My e-mail and phone number have been public for 20 years.
Hard to believe you had nothing at all to do with whatever made Kewlj come unhinged, but okay. If the way I put it is false or untrue in any way, I apologize.
Now...are you going to contribute to the forum in any other way or not?
Quote: TwoFeathersATLBeware dem gay gamblers, possible they're all nuts! Just 2F ;-)
QFIT has stated that he did not know that Kewlj was gay.
Quote: RonCQFIT has stated that he did not know that Kewlj was gay.
I had read that. Didn't say whether I believed it or not.
'twas just a joke, a joke about gamblers, not gay guys ;-)
So I should add, beware dem straight gamblers too, possible they're all nuts! 2F
Quote: petroglyphI would like to volunteer to serve Axel's suspension in his stead
Ok. I'm going to give you 1 day of it, starting now, then Axel serves the third one himself (he's done 1).
