Is this Forum really dead now.

In one day postings only on 12 articles including those from staff.
Took me 5 minutes to find out how to make this new postings.
Show how bad new people can screw things up.
Not meant as criticism but to change your ways.

Traffic shows as down 19% year over year on on tool:

http://www.trafficestimate.com/wizardofodds.com

Many have made comments and complaints, but this is the way it appears the site will be. I don't think it is dead or will be dead, but it is not as lively...at least from my point of view.

Edit:

Sorry...this site is down nearly 26%:

http://www.trafficestimate.com/wizardofvegas.com

Both of the sites are down a lot, but we have no idea what that amounts to on the revenue side...how many people went to an online gambling site by clicking here?

Wizardof Odds is down because the forum is here on Wizardof Vegas.

What is the traffic like for this site?

Quote: darkoz

What is the traffic like for this site?

Worse.

Down 25.8%.

see

It's different from it used to be. We're still adjusting to "the new normal".

With any change like this, there is some user attrition, and there is an influx of new users. Hopefully the new users aren't all spambots, and bring up some interesting topics.

If you think the forum needs more traffic, be the change you wish to see in the forum.

I feel that this forum is different not solely due to the... less than savory postings that have been happening, but also due to the subtraction of some valued members. My math skills aren't close to what many of the members here have, but it seems like if you remove some of the more entertaining/reputable/veteran members and add some members with less benevolent intentions, you're gonna have a bad time.

With that said, I think this forum still has retained a lot of good members, and it's still a pleasure reading from it.

The forum is down because of the changes. People will get used to it then new people who join will get used to it. And it will start picking up again. It's still important. People get useful information from here.

I can't tell, because I've only been here a few months. We got enough smart people.

Quote: darkoz

Wizardof Odds is down because the forum is here on Wizardof Vegas.

What is the traffic like for this site?

The forum has always been here. What does the location of the forum have to do with traffic on the odds site?

Quote: jjjoooggg

We got enough smart people.

Not even close. We need more.

I want to learn things. I find that easier when there are smart people that I disagree with having discussions. If there were more of them here, I could learn more.

Quote: Dieter

Not even close. We need more.

I want to learn things. I find that easier when there are smart people that I disagree with having discussions. If there were more of them here, I could learn more.

I have to agree...I learned more during the discussions about how certain things worked and the math involved (including some disagreements) than I do now, when most of the discussion about math goes to whether the dice will be impacted by the temperature...

I'm not here anywhere near as often as I used to be. WoV doesn't fit my needs, satisfy my curiosity, nor appeal to my social side the way it used to. I'm not sure why, but it doesn't really matter why. Too many times of checking in and nothing was worth following, I guess. Too many times it was all about The Suspension List.

It is what it is. Maybe the pool of possible members isn't as big as one would think it would be. The forum has always appeared to appeal more to APs and cerebral types, and hasn't really welcomed the casual players who make up the vast majority of gamblers and Vegas visitors. Most of us don't gamble because of the math, we gamble because it's fun. I think the best result for someone like myself is (for example) knowing that the Pairs Plus bet at 3 Card costs about 7%, and that the AKQ of spades is 22,099 to 1 against. Stuff like that, from WoO. Then I can decide what to play when I go fishing for a big hit.

Is there room here for that guy, hanging out with card counters and slot vultures and hole carders, who seem to have staked these pixels jealously as their own? Hard to say, I think. Everyone will have their own answer. But gamblers tend to be non-sociable people, in my experience. Not bad people, but not social. So they tend to make less than welcoming forum members.

I'm sitting here wondering if I should post this or delete it and let things alone. Some of the ideas are a bit half baked, and a lot of it has been written and deleted. In the end, it doesn't really matter. I like folks here well enough, but I like everybody pretty much. As always, I encourage anyone who is interested to read Clay Shirky's A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy. And if you've already read it, read it again. Groups behave as consistently as dice or cards do, they just have different rules. Woe to the social software designer who does not pay attention to those rules.

Mosca,

I am one who misses you. And I really appreciate this post. That link to Shirky's transcript was excellent as well, thanks.

There were more interesting topics a few
years ago, better arguments. I have almost
19K posts because of that time. I post
a fraction of what I used to.

That's what happens when interesting members are banned.

I feel pretty much the same as Mosca. I still visit fairly often, but don't post as much as I used to. And this has nothing to do with the new owners or new site. I cut back a few years ago, partially because my online access at work has been cut back. So if I'm online during the workday, it's on my phone. Posting on an iPhone (or any smartphone) is a PITA.

For what it's worth, I think threads like these are destructive, and are something of a self-suffillng prophecy. I.E. Have a bunch of people at work ask one person if they feel well, and chances are, they'll go home feeling ill. Same thing here. Mention how much it sucks here, and sooner or later, it starts to really suck here.

For the record, I like it here and I never hated the new format. And, to a certain extent, I wish I was still a moderator...

Quote: EvenBob

There were more interesting topics a few
years ago, better arguments. I have almost
19K posts because of that time. I post
a fraction of what I used to.

Many of the gambling topics ran their course. The good OT posts are at DT.

Quote: 1BB

That's what happens when interesting members are banned.

Actually, that's true in this case. B9 was
a prolific poster who kept lots of
threads interesting. With him gone
this is a much duller place.

Quote: EvenBob

Actually, that's true in this case. B9 was
a prolific poster who kept lots of
threads interesting. With him gone
this is a much duller place.

B9 helped keep more balance to the forum. With him gone the board tilts way more left and is thus just not as interesting.

how was traffic year over year BEFORE the Wiz decided on doing his (ill-fated) site re-design on Wizardofodds?

And do you think the new owners are on track to breakeven w/their $2.4M investment?

The "value" of these web sites:

diversitytomorrow.com is worth $ 240.00

wizardofvegas.com is worth $ 64,200.00

wizardofodds.com is worth $ 177,840.00

http://www.urlrate.com/


Of course, clicks to the gambling sites is what they are really looking for...

Quote: RonC

The "value" of these web sites:

diversitytomorrow.com is worth $ 240.00

wizardofvegas.com is worth $ 64,200.00

wizardofodds.com is worth $ 177,840.00

http://www.urlrate.com/


Of course, clicks to the gambling sites is what they are really looking for...

congrats Wiz on your +++++++++++++EV sale!

Quote: 1BB

That's what happens when interesting members are banned.

No,no one brings down a forum by leaving it. Blame the ones who remain. In this case, the ones here from the beginning. All the cheerleading in the world by a particular moderator, and a long list of new(?) members restarting dreadfully boring blackjack card counting discussions, isn't going to change anything. We can rebuild all the old threads? Pitiful.

The first sign of a big problem here was that the information seemed of value only to online casinos. Ie, exploitative value. Gambling forums are notoriously closedmouthed about worthwhile information. The AP ones, even more so off into oblivion about other unrelated tillage. Math forums, computer forums, these types of forums continue to go strong because of the useful information. Practical information. Not a bunch of clearly lousy or fake experts, and easily-impressed readers. (People talking about even calculating precise poker raises, etc, in no-limit poker is pure baloney. The graphs for the exact plays oscillate wildly throughout.) What's that they say about karaoke, people who can't sing to people who can't hear? On the other hand, don't "need" cheerleaders for the real deal.

What we have here is an epic fail of the math. Many regular gamblers have known of this forum for years, and are still going strong as they intentionally avoid it. In fact, I was laid into on other forums more than once for appearing to be of this (Wizard) ilk. If you're not one here, you're on the distinguished path to being labelled a nasty troll (in the other way). Gambling forums are strange places, well beyond the tacit rules and activities of simple groups.

At any rate, when I fail at something, I blame myself first and foremost; and then try to improve before become better by simply asking for, and listening to, others' advice and experiences. You don't immediately answer, "What if the pilot dies?" with "I'll land it myself." What sort of legacy is this? Fifteen minutes of fame for a lifetime of not having done your homework.

Quote: EvenBob

There were more interesting topics a few
years ago, better arguments. I have almost
19K posts because of that time. I post
a fraction of what I used to.

I agree with you. I and others post a fraction of what we all used to just like you.

The way this forum is set up now it basically consist of 13 threads.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Mosca,

I am one who misses you. And I really appreciate this post. That link to Shirky's transcript was excellent as well, thanks.

Thanks, Babs.

I've linked Shirky here a few times, I think you're the only one who has acknowledged reading it. All the patterns are here. And all the answers are the same.


I do have concrete suggestions for Zuga, but they might not align with his plans:

Model Wizard of Vegas after DISBoards. That is by far the premier site for people visiting Orlando and Central Florida. You don't have to like Disney stuff to admire how they've structured their forum, and how it is up to date and vibrant, and alive. You want to talk comparable value? Look up the value of DISBoards. The analyzer that values WoV at $117k values DISBoards at $1.288M. Las Vegas is Disney World for after the kids are on their own.

Along those lines, spruce the place up. Things change so fast in Vegas, the hotel and casino reviews are so out of date as to be almost useless. I shouldn't have to ask about a hotel or a restaurant, I should be able to lurk the answer if I want to, and ask if I need specifics. For a site named Wizard of Vegas, there's really hardly any Las Vegas information here. And that is really a function of the makeup of the group: it is small, and its members save their money to play. No one is spending money and reviewing anything. Attract a crowd that mirrors the people walking up and down the strip. Call them "ploppies" all you like, but the casinos aren't making money off of APs, and neither will Zuga. You make money by appealing to large groups of people with lots of money that they are happy to spend, not by appealing to a select few who are counting every quarter and looking for advantages everywhere. Hell, I've said it lots of times, if I wanted to make money I'd go to work instead of the casino. I don't need to work more when it's time to relax.

Move the gaming forums over to Wizard of Odds. They fit better with that concept anyhow. The numbers, the math, the odds, that is certainly part of Vegas, and can be cross-linked. The AP stuff? Well, there's kind of no point for that in a social forum if it isn't going to be shared, is there? Systems... they should not be discussed. Perpetuating the discussion of betting systems in ANY forum is like allowing anti-vaxx talk. Simply allowing it gives it a veneer of respectability it doesn't deserve, and the ridicule it brings to the OP is both 100% necessary, and 100% not in keeping with the social purpose of the forum. The group is its own worst enemy.

Make a third site, Wizard of Internet Gambling (or whatever, naming things isn't my bag). Internet gambling has nothing to do with Las Vegas. It can cross-link with WoO. Internet gambling and Las Vegas are different things. Hell, internet gambling and brick and mortar gambling are completely different things, and the quicker game operators understand that, the more prosperous they will be. Internet gambling has more in common with internet gaming than it does with casino gambling; not in the games offered, not in the allure, but in the fact that the game happens inside your head. It's like the difference between a visit and a phone call. I'm not going to play casino games online. And people who play casino games online aren't going to go to Vegas, not for the games anyhow. Poker players might go for the tournaments, but that is chasing the money, not the game.

I'm tired, that's enough. The site doesn't do what its title says it does. People come here looking for Las Vegas and they see a bunch of out of date hotel reviews and an inbred forum where the biggest discussion is about the suspension list; it reminds me of nothing more than the final chapter of 100 Years of Solitude, where the last progeny of the illustrious Buendia family is born with a pig's tail and eaten by ants. It could have been so much more, but it is its own worst enemy.

Has there ever been a board at Wizard of Odds, or has this been the only one Mike has had?

If not, why not?

That site should focus on the math, this one, at least by name, should focus on Las Vegas.

I think that may be the best & most lucid thing I've read here in more than a year.

Quote: Mosca

I'm not here anywhere near as often as I used to be. WoV doesn't fit my needs, satisfy my curiosity, nor appeal to my social side the way it used to. I'm not sure why, but it doesn't really matter why. Too many times of checking in and nothing was worth following, I guess. Too many times it was all about The Suspension List.

It is what it is. Maybe the pool of possible members isn't as big as one would think it would be. The forum has always appeared to appeal more to APs and cerebral types, and hasn't really welcomed the casual players who make up the vast majority of gamblers and Vegas visitors. Most of us don't gamble because of the math, we gamble because it's fun. I think the best result for someone like myself is (for example) knowing that the Pairs Plus bet at 3 Card costs about 7%, and that the AKQ of spades is 22,099 to 1 against. Stuff like that, from WoO. Then I can decide what to play when I go fishing for a big hit.

Is there room here for that guy, hanging out with card counters and slot vultures and hole carders, who seem to have staked these pixels jealously as their own? Hard to say, I think. Everyone will have their own answer. But gamblers tend to be non-sociable people, in my experience. Not bad people, but not social. So they tend to make less than welcoming forum members.

I'm sitting here wondering if I should post this or delete it and let things alone. Some of the ideas are a bit half baked, and a lot of it has been written and deleted. In the end, it doesn't really matter. I like folks here well enough, but I like everybody pretty much. As always, I encourage anyone who is interested to read Clay Shirky's A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy. And if you've already read it, read it again. Groups behave as consistently as dice or cards do, they just have different rules. Woe to the social software designer who does not pay attention to those rules.

One thing I'd note though, I'm not as sure as some others seem to be that a decline in participation here is particularly recent. I recall checking one of the tracking sites for web metrics (I forget which one) sometime in 2014 and seeing traffic to this forum being reported as down by something in the neighborhood of a low to mid double digit year-to-year percentage.

Judging by the number of threads of a dying forum in the last few months and sheer volume of posts made in those threads , I am inclined to say the forum certainly is not dying. It just goes to show the passion members here have for WoV. You gotta respect that.

Granted the number of members online did drop a bit, which is a result of some members hating the "changes" and some banned members. But mind even though they no longer log in, some of them sure still lurk around.

Now what has really changed on here , really? Two things :

1. The new design - like it or not it was long overdue and bound to happen. The old design and 90s style had to go.
2. The ads - again like it or not its what is paying the bills. Everywhere you go you see ads, whether we talking about social networks, news websites, TV or even your car wash. The ads are part of the world we live in.

Everything else remained the same. The concept , the structure , the content , the membership ( well most of it ), the Admins, and the Wizard himself is still here.

I also see a lot of concerns here about the traffic numbers, and couple of you provided links to "traffic estimator sites', that are showing the decline. Fortunately for us, the only relevant and precise source is the google analytics , which shows an actual boost in traffic numbers ( slow but steady rise in the last year and half ).

Quote: Mosca

I do have concrete suggestions for Zuga, but they might not align with his plans:....

Thanks for your suggestions but you are right most of what you proposed goes against our plans. What I do agree with you and what we plan on improving are the Casino/Hotel reviews. They indeed need to be updated.

cheers
Zuga

Quote: EvenBob

I post a fraction of what I used to.

At your current pace, you would only have 16,000+ posts cumulatively........I guess that qualifies as slowing down, but not sure I would term it as "a fraction". Cut your post count down to 3 per day and I'll believe you've really slowed down.

Quote: Zuga

Quote: Mosca

I do have concrete suggestions for Zuga, but they might not align with his plans:....

Thanks for your suggestions but you are right most of what you proposed goes against our plans. What I do agree with you and what we plan on improving are the Casino/Hotel reviews. They indeed need to be updated.

cheers
Zuga

Thanks for reading. I don't have anything invested in the site, and I figured that you probably had some ideas already.

If the number of active members has dropped, then you are pitching the ads to the same people you always have been, except with fewer unique views. Just sayin'. For what it's worth, my brain got trained to ignore online ads years ago, they don't bother me at all. And the new design is neither here nor there. It's the drop in relevant content that has made me check in less often.

Quote: Mosca

For what it's worth, my brain got trained to ignore online ads years ago, they don't bother me at all.

And I thought I was the only one.

Ads? What ads? Where?

I must be completely blind to them.

Quote: Mosca

If the number of active members has dropped, then you are pitching the ads to the same people you always have been, except with fewer unique views. Just sayin'.

The traffic is on the rise so actually we are pitching to more ppl than ever.... WoV's visitors are not just the forum members, which are only small % of the site's traffic. Granted WoV members are very valuable part of the site, as they provide the great insight.

Lets put it this way, we knew that the ads would never appeal to most of the active WoV posters, but at the same time they were never our main target audience for those ads. We knew some of those members would be against the ads, some left coz of them, some like you ignore them, and we are really fine with that :)

Thanks for the comments :)
Zuga

I was on the bus to ac about two months ago when I was started conversing with a total stranger.

He says to me many of the things I am recounting sound like an on-line blogger he follows named DarkOz.

I was shocked and admitted that was me (Yeah, my ego was stoked a bit.)

I inquired what his screen name was and he told me he was not even a registered member. He simply visited the site periodically as he was an interested gambler. He particularly like my Hustling Wars series.

So, there are views that are from simply visitors to this site. The few of us here who post are becoming more like sports commentators with an audience, yay!

Zuga,

Nice to see you reading this thread. I have to give you high marks for responding to discussions about the forum itself; thanks!

I personally think it would be interesting to have a contemporaneous chat room on here, ideally one where a single person can speak to a group, and the ability to participate via text (with or without speech enabled), moderated or not. We could schedule discussions on particular games, different promotions, with particular people of note (the Wizard, Switch, you, etc.), whatever folks wanted. I don't know what I'm asking in terms of software or programming, let alone bandwidth, but it could be a good forum traffic driver. JMHO.

I don't post a lot, mostly read. I think the liveliness and fun of the forum dropped years ago when off-topic posts were moved to DT. I rarely check there but we used to have tons of interesting trivia and discussion from pacomartin and he posts pretty much exclusively on DT now. The other thing which has made it less interesting is that some of the old-timers with good stories got banned for personal insults. IMO this forum is a bit too strict on that, especially because there are some others that like to bait people into making the insults. There does seem to be a lot of soap opera stuff on who's getting suspended, banned, etc. but I just ignore all that. We still have several knowledgeable posters on AP stuff that keep me coming back. Even though I am not an AP I am somewhat fascinated by it and when I do gamble I like to know the games and the odds. Of course I'm not averse to getting money in with an edge when the opportunity presents itself, just not for a living.

A forum is like any other internet property. There has to be interesting content every time somebody comes by, or eventually they stop coming. New threads started by authoritative or popular posters drive participation. Yes, more up to date reviews on hotels and all things Vegas would be of interest also. Personally I also enjoy trip reports when the poster has a knack for storytelling. Some way to encourage those would be fun. Maybe something like trip report of the year gets a prize.

Quote: jml24

I don't post a lot, mostly read. I think the liveliness and fun of the forum dropped years ago when off-topic posts were moved to DT. I rarely check there but we used to have tons of interesting trivia and discussion from pacomartin and he posts pretty much exclusively on DT now. The other thing which has made it less interesting is that some of the old-timers with good stories got banned for personal insults. IMO this forum is a bit too strict on that, especially because there are some others that like to bait people into making the insults. There does seem to be a lot of soap opera stuff on who's getting suspended, banned, etc. but I just ignore all that. We still have several knowledgeable posters on AP stuff that keep me coming back. Even though I am not an AP I am somewhat fascinated by it and when I do gamble I like to know the games and the odds. Of course I'm not averse to getting money in with an edge when the opportunity presents itself, just not for a living.

A forum is like any other internet property. There has to be interesting content every time somebody comes by, or eventually they stop coming. New threads started by authoritative or popular posters drive participation. Yes, more up to date reviews on hotels and all things Vegas would be of interest also. Personally I also enjoy trip reports when the poster has a knack for storytelling. Some way to encourage those would be fun. Maybe something like trip report of the year gets a prize.

Start a trivia thread I'm thinking that's fine.

As far as people who were permanently banned there's obviously a good reason. There's so many ways one can avoid that.

Let's take Mickey Crimm for instance, I want him back, but I understand that he had more leeway than anyone for a very long time. Mods did everything they could to keep him. They even deleted late night Black Velvet insulting rants.

Quote: Zuga

The traffic is on the rise so actually we are pitching to more ppl than ever.... WoV's visitors are not just the forum members, which are only small % of the site's traffic. Granted WoV members are very valuable part of the site, as they provide the great insight.

Lets put it this way, we knew that the ads would never appeal to most of the active WoV posters, but at the same time they were never our main target audience for those ads. We knew some of those members would be against the ads, some left coz of them, some like you ignore them, and we are really fine with that :)

Thanks for the comments :)
Zuga

Zuga:

Can you give us any idea of the lurker to poster ratio? The ads don't bother me, I just always wondered if anyone besides the top dozen posters here reads what we post?

Quote: AZDuffman

Zuga:

Can you give us any idea of the lurker to poster ratio? The ads don't bother me, I just always wondered if anyone besides the top dozen posters here reads what we post?

Just a guess,
20 to 1 ratio
At least 20 lurkers to every poster
Most people lurk.
I lurked here for years before posting
Most boards I still just lurk.
Boards are a great resource for all kinds of information.

Quote: terapined

Just a guess,
20 to 1 ratio
At least 20 lurkers to every poster
Most people lurk.
I lurked here for years before posting
Most boards I still just lurk.
Boards are a great resource for all kinds of information.

I mostly lurk myself. Have done so for years. When I finally made an account to provide posts, I found it far less fulfilling than I had hoped it would be.

Quote: Dodsferd

I mostly lurk myself. Have done so for years. When I finally made an account to provide posts, I found it far less fulfilling than I had hoped it would be.

Wow... you lurked for years but yet choose to sign up during a sensitive time where people were sockpuppeting and posing as casino employees and whatnot and then presenting yourself as someone working at a casino in a unique position?

That would be like going to the airport soon after 9/11 with olive skin, a long beard and a box cutter.

Quote: AxelWolf

Wow... you lurked for years but yet choose to sign up during a sensitive time where people were sockpuppeting and posing as casino employees and whatnot and then presenting yourself as someone working at a casino in a unique position?

That would be like going to the airport soon after 9/11 with olive skin, a long beard and a box cutter.

Sure, if you want to view it in that regard. T'was a response to the activity of the forum, not a cry for justice.

Also, given that my intent was to provide beneficial information to the forum, and not blow up a plane, I think the comparison is a little off.

Quote: RonC

Traffic shows as down 19% year over year on on tool:

http://www.trafficestimate.com/wizardofodds.com

Many have made comments and complaints, but this is the way it appears the site will be. I don't think it is dead or will be dead, but it is not as lively...at least from my point of view.

Edit:

Sorry...this site is down nearly 26%:

http://www.trafficestimate.com/wizardofvegas.com

Both of the sites are down a lot, but we have no idea what that amounts to on the revenue side...how many people went to an online gambling site by clicking here?

I'm not sure I would trust TrafficEstimate.com It shows my traffic is down about 75% year over year, yet Google Analytics shows my traffic is slightly higher than a year ago.

TrafficEstimate.com is in the business of selling SEO and other tools to boost web traffic. I would be careful about how they rank a website. They just might be trying to make a sale. And with that in mind -- what a great sales pitch to be able to say "your traffic is down 75% from a year ago Mr M, but we can help you. Now, what's your credit card number?"

One of the biggest problems in measuring website traffic is "proxy servers." Take my website for example: alanbestbuys.com caters to an audience of TV viewers in Southern California where I have a weekly TV show. But my website's server is in JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA and that creates this question:

Everytime one of my TV show viewers in Pasadena, California goes to my website, are they getting a phone line direct to my server in Jacksonville, Florida? Of course not. What is happening is that their Internet provider is directing them to a PROXY SERVER in Pasadena, or perhaps to one in downtown LA or to a proxy server in Van Nuys, or maybe in Anaheim or Long Beach. That proxy server visits my actual server maybe once a day or twice a day to download my site. If I make a change on my website, the update on the proxy servers might happen more frequently. My "forum server" is in the San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles, so there my local audience might actually be going to it directly.

Each time a visitor goes to a "proxy server" they don't show up on the "server count." Proxy server visits can be totally invisible to the "number crunchers."

In the advertising business, we account for these proxy servers by multiplying traffic reports by 3X to as much as 10X.

I know that my TV show has 230,000 viewers. I'll be damned if I am going to believe trafficestimate.com when they estimate 1,600 visitors a day to my site.

By the way, there is a building in downtown Los Angeles with an entire floor filled with nothing but "proxy servers."

Quote: AZDuffman

Zuga:

Can you give us any idea of the lurker to poster ratio? The ads don't bother me, I just always wondered if anyone besides the top dozen posters here reads what we post?

i will only say that the daily visits to the site ( guests , lurkers , call them what u will ) are significantly higher to registered users online aka members.

And as the google analytics chart shows in my earlier message the total traffic to the site is on a steady rise .

this is why i said the forum is hardly dying, maybe bit less of posts or members online , but overall WoV is going strong.

Don't get me wrong we do recoginze the importance of membership here. most of you guys provide a valuable input and great content.

And we sure want to keep this community active , and it is why we took some of the advice from members when we switched to the new design, and made it more user friendly.
I know that was still not enough for some, but hey we cant please everyone.

Quote: Dodsferd

Sure, if you want to view it in that regard. T'was a response to the activity of the forum, not a cry for justice.

Also, given that my intent was to provide beneficial information to the forum, and not blow up a plane, I think the comparison is a little off.

Yes it was over the top but it got the point across. With the general tone of the forum at that time you had to know you weren't going to be meet with a warm and fuzzy welcome. So of course you found it far less fulfilling than you had hoped it would be. That shouldn't have been a surprise.

Quote: AxelWolf

Yes it was over the top but it got the point across. With the general tone of the forum at that time you had to know you weren't going to be meet with a warm and fuzzy welcome. So of course you found it far less fulfilling than you had hoped it would be. That shouldn't have been a surprise.

I'm sorry Axel, I must not have indicated my point correctly, as it seems you misunderstand me.

I don't find that these forums have much interest in the Surveillance side of the casino. That's what I meant. Where most of the discussion comes from various advantages to be had from promos, or debunking systems, misinformation, etc, not much has to do with, or has any relevance to the knowledge or experience from what someone in my department would be able to join in with.

I didn't want to come across like I'm expecting a hero's welcome, just that the number of threads that I find any interest in replying to or having relevance to is lower than I expected.

Quote: Dodsferd

I'm sorry Axel, I must not have indicated my point correctly, as it seems you misunderstand me.

I don't find that these forums have much interest in the Surveillance side of the casino. That's what I meant. Where most of the discussion comes from various advantages to be had from promos, or debunking systems, misinformation, etc, not much has to do with, or has any relevance to the knowledge or experience from what someone in my department would be able to join in with.

I didn't want to come across like I'm expecting a hero's welcome, just that the number of threads that I find any interest in replying to or having relevance to is lower than I expected.

This is where "be the change you want to see" might be appropriate. Most everyone on here expects that surveillance and game protection is proprietary and non-public information. Seems like you offered to talk about things in that area when you first came on, and had a pretty interesting conversation for a couple of weeks. If you have particular things you want to talk about, I would guess most or all of us would find them pretty interesting and would engage.

Quote: beachbumbabs

This is where "be the change you want to see" might be appropriate. Most everyone on here expects that surveillance and game protection is proprietary and non-public information. Seems like you offered to talk about things in that area when you first came on, and had a pretty interesting conversation for a couple of weeks. If you have particular things you want to talk about, I would guess most or all of us would find them pretty interesting and would engage.

I guarantee if you were a verified casino servalance person there would be a ton of questions and lot's of chatter. Depending on what information you would be willing to share. Of course AP's(smart one's) are not going to want to ask certain questions publicly. Guys that are really interested in this stuff(AP's mostly ) have already learned as much as possible. The main fear is that your not verified and miss information may cost someone a significant amount of money.

Your house may do things differently than others and that would be valuable to an AP playing at your casino.

Most of what you survalance guys have allready said is easily found on the Internet.

Can you tell us somthing we don't allready know, somthing that can help AP's?

Quote: AxelWolf

I guarantee if you were a verified casino servalance person there would be a ton of questions and lot's of chatter. Depending on what information you would be willing to share. Of course AP's(smart one's) are not going to want to ask certain questions publicly. Guys that are really interested in this stuff(AP mostly ) have already learned as much as possible) The main fear is that your not verified and miss information may cost someone a significant amount of money.

Your house may do things differently than others and that would be valuable to an AP playing at your casino.

Most of what you gus have allready said is easily found on the Internet.

Can you tell us somthing we don't allready know, somthing that can help AP's?

Is this still being called into question? I've already had my background questioned and I have answered every single time. The thread that was requested was created, and I further advised that I would provide more details via PM if needed, and there was zero follow up to that.

The focus on Surveillance isn't to thwart AP. We're here to provide asset and liability protection. As long as someone wins via legitimate means, I don't care how they do it. Have luck, coupons, promotions, I don't care at all. Commit a cheat at play, and you have my attention.

If you have some sort of fear of who I am, then address it.

" As long as someone wins via legitimate means" However if you engage your brain at Blackjack, do so at your own risk.

Quote: redjohn

" As long as someone wins via legitimate means" However if you engage your brain at Blackjack, do so at your own risk.

Most decent Surveillance personal are advantage players in themselves. The majority of the learning curve for entering this department stems from the equipment used, as well as game protection - which heavily involves advantage play and detection techniques. I count myself at the casinos I am allowed to play in.