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MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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April 12th, 2016 at 1:06:46 PM permalink
How about a thread (or threads) regarding legal matters in the gaming world?

For example, I stumbled across this case just now, about a table games manager who was fired after he called Gaming Control agents to complain about "superstitious" dice being switched into craps games that were dumping:
http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/19/59514.htm
Clark County District Court, Case No. A-13-685289-C, if you want to look it up -- but the Clark County website doesn't list a lot of details.
https://www.clarkcountycourts.us/Anonymous/default.aspx

I love this business...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
DRich
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April 12th, 2016 at 1:16:59 PM permalink
I love the idea. Thank you and please keep posting interesting legal links.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Romes
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April 12th, 2016 at 1:38:06 PM permalink
I too love the idea... Though I'd like to be able to ask questions too. Not legal advice per say, but more like "Does anyone know the state minimum payback on slots in X, Y, or Z?"
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
DRich
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April 12th, 2016 at 2:37:25 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

I too love the idea... Though I'd like to be able to ask questions too. Not legal advice per say, but more like "Does anyone know the state minimum payback on slots in X, Y, or Z?"



I don't know if you really care about the payback % or if you were just using that as your example, but the following webpage is pretty useful.

http://www.americancasinoguide.com/slot-machine-payback-statistics.html
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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April 12th, 2016 at 2:59:23 PM permalink
This is the front page story of the LVRJ website right now:
http://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/former-bellagio-craps-dealer-partners-get-prison-craps-scheme
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
mrsuit31
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April 12th, 2016 at 3:42:17 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

This is the front page story of the LVRJ website right now:
http://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/former-bellagio-craps-dealer-partners-get-prison-craps-scheme



Interesting little scheme. I always wondered if there were teams doing things like this with regard to the verbal wagers... The question I have is that when the next time the partner mumbled something to the dealer (Branco), and he didn't pay him off as if it was another hop bet winner, why it was never questioned that the partner at the table didn't forfeit any chips as if he lost on the hop... I'm surprised the box man or others never caught on to this as it was happening...
.
GWAE
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April 12th, 2016 at 4:33:36 PM permalink
8 years seems a little harsh to me.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
tongni
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April 12th, 2016 at 5:06:48 PM permalink
Quote: mrsuit31

Interesting little scheme. I always wondered if there were teams doing things like this with regard to the verbal wagers... The question I have is that when the next time the partner mumbled something to the dealer (Branco), and he didn't pay him off as if it was another hop bet winner, why it was never questioned that the partner at the table didn't forfeit any chips as if he lost on the hop... I'm surprised the box man or others never caught on to this as it was happening...



There was a similar scheme in Biloxi a while back. It's very complicated to prosecute, and it's not exactly easy to explain to someone who is not familiar with playing/dealing craps, which is why they are using the statistical analysis to prove that it wasn't just chance. You get a couple undercover Gaming agents probably trying to listen to them on a busy night at a busy table and you can't even be sure if he said it or not. "he didn't say anything" "yeah he did" is not going to get anyone convicted.

There's probably almost no chance of being caught doing this as a one time thing, but you need at least one dealer and probably the box in on it, or at least a box who is clueless/looking the other way. If he could pay restitution, then he'd probably get a pretty light sentence. I would doubt that these guys are making massive fake hop bets, more likely just using it to cover their losses while they win on the pass/don't pass. Lose a few, win a few, probably don't get looked for a very long time.
Greasyjohn
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April 13th, 2016 at 3:18:32 AM permalink
Archie Karas ( Anargyros Nicholas Karabourniotisis ) is now in the Nevada Black Book. His life is one amazing story.
theotherguy
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April 13th, 2016 at 9:33:16 AM permalink
Gee, in the black book, just when his probationary 3 year term for marking cards in San Diego is over. Some guys just can't catch a break.
theotherguy
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April 13th, 2016 at 9:40:12 AM permalink
Just curious. I have heard the term advantage player. Anyone ever heard this term ?

"A cross-roader is a guy who makes a living taking advantage of weak spots in the casino."
AxelWolf
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April 13th, 2016 at 10:19:18 AM permalink
Quote: theotherguy

Just curious. I have heard the term advantage player. Anyone ever heard this term ?

"A cross-roader is a guy who makes a living taking advantage of weak spots in the casino."

NO they don't just take advantage of weak spots THEY BLATANTLY CHEAT.



A crossroader is a guy who BLATANTLY CHEATS CASINOS. IE. Marking cards, using loaded dice, rigging slots, cheating at poker, stealing from people etc etc.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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April 13th, 2016 at 10:33:05 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

A crossroader is a guy who BLATANTLY CHEATS CASINOS. IE. Marking cards, using loaded dice, rigging slots, cheating at poker, stealing from people etc etc.

Specifically, an outside cheater (as opposed to a cheating casino employee). Sometimes crossroaders are in cahoots with crooked dealers, as were Martin and Granito from the Bellagio craps scam that was reported yesterday.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
theotherguy
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April 13th, 2016 at 10:35:54 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

NO they don't just take advantage of weak spots THEY BLATANTLY CHEAT.



A crossroader is a guy who BLATANTLY CHEATS CASINOS. IE. Marking cards, using loaded dice, rigging slots, cheating at poker, stealing from people etc etc.




An example of a common weak spot is a dealer who doesn't know the exact payout on every bet in games such as roulette or craps. Would you consider that crossroading ?
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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April 13th, 2016 at 10:39:19 AM permalink
Quote: theotherguy

An example of a common weak spot is a dealer who doesn't know the exact payout on every bet in games such as roulette or craps. Would you consider that crossroading ?

That's expressly illegal in Nevada:
Quote: NRS 475.070


NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.  It is unlawful for any person:
3.  To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.

"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Greasyjohn
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April 13th, 2016 at 12:01:07 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

That's expressly illegal in Nevada:

Wow, I didn't know they had that rule but it makes sense. Some guys will bet weird amounts at blackjack like $87 and if they get a wrong (higher) payout than 3:2 will make this bet frequently. It would be pretty had to prove the player knew they were overpaid.

And some of those payouts in roulette where you catch a 17:1, a 8:1 and a 35:1 on the same spin can be tricky for the player too verify also.
MathExtremist
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April 13th, 2016 at 1:57:20 PM permalink
Yup. Intentionally accepting mispays from a sloppy dealer is a felony. Minimum sentence is either 10k or 1 year in the slammer. Or both. I doubt the state would prosecute a one-time $5 overpay, even if the player sort of knew he shouldn't have taken the money. But if someone's out there making oddball bets with the intention of fooling the dealers -- and it works -- then the penalties are severe.

Quote: NRS 465.088  Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.


1.  A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.



In the Bellagio craps case, the charges weren't actually the overpaying one, they were theft and cheating. The case against Granito is Clark County Case No. C-15-309715-4:
Quote: Sentencing minutes


DEFT. GRANITO ADJUDGED GUILTY of COUNT 1 - THEFT (F); COUNT 2 - CHEATING AT GAMBLING (F). Arguments by counsel in mitigation of sentence. Statement by Defendant. Victim Speaker, Sharon Tibbits, Representative of MGM Corporation, sworn and gave victim impact statement. COURT ORDERED, in addition to the $25.00 Administrative Assessment fee, $693,700.00 restitution to be paid JOINTLY and SEVERALLY to the extent of liability, $150.00 DNA analysis fee, including testing to determine genetic markers and $3.00 DNA Collection fee, Defendant SENTENCED to COUNT 1 -to a MAXIMUM of ONE HUNDRED (100) MONTHS and a MINIMUM of THIRTY SIX (36) MONTHS in the Nevada Department of Corrections (NDC); as to COUNT 2 - MAXIMUM of SEVENTY TWO (72) MONTHS and a MINIMUM of TWENTY FOUR (24) MONTHS in the Nevada Department of Corrections (NDC), CONCURRENT with COUNT 1 with ONE (1) DAY credit for time served. BOND, if any, EXONERATED. NDC



Not sure why they needed DNA evidence...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
AxelWolf
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April 13th, 2016 at 2:17:35 PM permalink
Quote: theotherguy

An example of a common weak spot is a dealer who doesn't know the exact payout on every bet in games such as roulette or craps. Would you consider that crossroading ?

NO!!!

If it's not Illegal I wouldn't call someone that. Of they are legally taking advantage of the casino they are AP.

If they specialize in cheating then I would call them a CrossRoader. Well I wouldn't call them that it's probably something that some book writer made up to make Ithe all sound better than a CHEATER adding a outlaw type of glamorous twist.

That doesn't mean a cross-roader wouldn't take advantage of that situation as well.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TwoFeathersATL
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April 13th, 2016 at 3:39:56 PM permalink
I'm not a CrossRoader, I'm not that bright. I have a carefully prepared defense should I be accused of any such nonsense. Just read my last couple thousand posts. Free Bird.....
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
theotherguy
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April 13th, 2016 at 4:00:18 PM permalink
To be honest I never heard the term crossroader until I visited the King Of Crossroader's website. Namely one Richard Marcus.
Hunterhill
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April 13th, 2016 at 4:30:02 PM permalink
Crossroader dates to sometime in the 1800's possibly even earlier.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Ibeatyouraces
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April 13th, 2016 at 10:01:06 PM permalink
I'm guessing "TheOtherGuy" is Buzz?
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
DiceDealer
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April 13th, 2016 at 11:28:16 PM permalink
Unrelated legal question: If I put money and my player's card in a slot machine. I then let a friend sit in the chair and push the button while I stand and watch. Who gets the winnings when we hit the progressive and our friendship ends? Would it make a difference if we are both sitting in chairs equidistant from the machine?
Greasyjohn
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April 14th, 2016 at 2:06:13 AM permalink
Quote: DiceDealer

Unrelated legal question: If I put money and my player's card in a slot machine. I then let a friend sit in the chair and push the button while I stand and watch. Who gets the winnings when we hit the progressive and our friendship ends? Would it make a difference if we are both sitting in chairs equidistant from the machine?



It's been stated before in these forums: The person pushing the buttons is the one who is paid.
DiceDealer
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April 14th, 2016 at 2:34:16 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

It's been stated before in these forums: The person pushing the buttons is the one who is paid.



My bad. I found the previous thread on the subject now. Thank you.
beachbumbabs
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April 14th, 2016 at 11:45:36 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I'm guessing "TheOtherGuy" is Buzz?



Yeah.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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April 14th, 2016 at 1:22:01 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Yeah.

IBYA is damn good guesser, I would recommend not playing poker against him.
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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April 14th, 2016 at 2:35:13 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

IBYA is damn good guesser, I would recommend not playing poker against him.


Had he not been put in red, I'd have not known, or guessed for that matter.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
MathExtremist
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April 15th, 2016 at 9:53:57 AM permalink
Here's a good one: a man in Ohio sued the state for denying him the opportunity to open his own casino. He won.

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e665087c-c345-4c98-bf8f-5922516d3678
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
BleedingChipsSlowly
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April 19th, 2016 at 9:57:25 PM permalink
"The Ohio Supreme Court ruled strictly on the issue of standing. ... The case will now be remanded to the Franklin County Court of Common Pleas for further proceedings ..."

A bit shy of a won case at this point.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
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