"Pojack" - a new poker/Blackjack combo....

I came across This game "Pojack" via LinkedIn. (No, it is not about a Greek-American detective...)
Had to check it out.
Basically, it is Blackjack with an option to continue your blackjack hand as a poker hand, if you had made both a BJ and Poker ANTE bet.
The thinking here was simply: "Well, if I mix these two great games together, then OF COURSE I MUST end up with something good, also...."
I Doan thin so, Lucy.....
I think if this thinking held true, we'd already be playing CrapJack, Rou-Gow, and Bacca-lette.
Now, 21+3 works well, as it fits in well as a pure bonus bet, but this is a little different.

What a terrible promotional website. The video was also terrible, as it didn't explain any of the special payouts. It would deal too slow, and the house edge on the BJ portion would be way too small.

I pass...

Quote: Paigowdan

I think if this thinking held true, we'd already be playing CrapJack, Rou-Gow, and Bacca-lette.

I think I'd play crapjack and rou-gow for the names alone:-) And baccalette is/was a real game. Apparently it was very exploitable and quickly went the way of the buffalo.

My initial view is I wouldn't be bothered with it. Obviously if there was a game where you had to make a strategic decision whether to play blackjack or poker (I think there is such a game) then it might be interesting if the optimal strategy was easy to remember. However I have not really liked poker games where, by and large, you either get a good hand or don't and either the dealer has to qualify before you get paid on good hands or you have to make more bets and unless you get a good hand sometime soon after starting your money just drifts away.

It goes to show that just because you can mix together a novel combination of games doesn't mean that the new game is necessarily as good, though a lot of wishful game designers would like to believe this is so. ("Voila! Big Six-a-Gow! Brilliant!" one could say, and even get a patent...)

I enjoy my soup, salad, and my cake dessert with my dinner, but would never mix them together as a new concoction only to say "it must therefore be better as a result, so haute cuisine fame and glory are mine!" - though many think this way, sadly.

I'm going to go right to work on PokeCrap before someone else takes it. You wouldn't try a game called PokeCrap!?

Quote: s2dbaker

I'm going to go right to work on PokeCrap before someone else takes it. You wouldn't try a game called PokeCrap!?

Oh, sweet Jesus!! I was giggling about the idea of CraKer, but PokeCrap is 100 times better.

Quote: rdw4potus

Oh, sweet Jesus!! I was giggling about the idea of CraKer, but PokeCrap is 100 times better.

Actually, Shufflemaster is already working on the game... it's got an Ante bet and a blind bet...

It's called Ultimate Crap Hold

Quote: Tiltpoul

Actually, Shufflemaster is already working on the game... it's got an Ante bet and a blind bet...

It's called Ultimate Crap Hold

Sooo...soon Shufflemaster will be selling the fresh dumps?

Quote: Paigowdan

Basically, it is Blackjack with an option to continue your blackjack hand as a poker hand,

They should have called it 'BlowJack' because it really
blows..

Quote: Paigowdan

I came across This game "Pojack" via LinkedIn.
I think if this thinking held true, we'd already be playing CrapJack, Rou-Gow, and Bacca-lette.

You know Crapjack and Baccalette were real, don't you?

Also, someone tried "PokerJack" over 10 years ago. I don't know what's different about this (allegedly) new version.

I thought the days of trying to combine two (or more) games were over. I don't believe anyone's ever been successful with a new game that was just an amalgam of two other games. (I distinguish from side bets; many popular BJ bonus bets are related to poker somehow).

Texas Crap'Em
Spanish Crap
Jack's or Crap (video version)

Ultimate EZ Super Fun Chemin-De-Sicjack-a-Luck Tiles

I all seriousness, they guy answered me on LinkedIn. Had an interesting forum conversation. I basically said:
"Jerry, there is a lot involved in making a casino desirable to a casino operator, and sometimes it may take a bit more than welding two different and existing games together. A new game needs to offer something truly novel, desirable, and unique to succeed. I know you must have spent a lot of time and money on the game, and have been trying for quite a while to get it installed, but casino operators might not be interested. Creating a new game must offer some brand-new advantages, aside from the mixing together two already-existing games. Now, the game 21+3, which is a mix of Blackjack and Three Card Poker does indeed work out well, but that is because the Three-card side functions purely as a poker type side bet, - without requiring the player or the dealer to "switch gears" midstream, to a different game. Granted, certain game mixes or combination might be a novel combination, but that does not necessarily make the new combo-game desirable from a casino operator's point of view. Have you considered making it just a novel side bet? Best of Luck."

He responded:
dear sir;

have taken my game to many casino's and have tried it
privately. black jack is played first and poker is
played after similar to crib poker. using your bj cards.
only extra cards are give to who ever is playing poker. it is
quite fast and casino like it. but they want to see it
in Vegas first.

tray it at home or in your office.

Well, this is what I do at my daytime job in gaming, and I see a bit of this, so I was concerned that this guy (who had invested some serious money, hopes, and dreams) doesn't know what it takes to get a game out, so I laid it out fairly plainly:

"When a casino manager or DTG (Director of Table games) tells you:
"We played it in private;" this means that it is not played or offered on their actual casino floor.

"We want to see it somewhere elsewhere first" (doesn't matter where), what this really means is: "We're not interested in seeing here at our casino," at least at this point in time.

Otherwise, they would have given you a contract to install the game at their casino, which they hadn't. I don't mean to be blunt, but this business puts its money where its mouth is. If they had wanted to install your game, then they simply would have taken steps to install your game: namely:
1. Asked their Gaming authority to approve your game for installation and play, - at least for a field trial;

2. Had asked you for a bona-fide math report and product documentation on the game, to include "How to Play" Rack cards for their customers, a product description and dealing procedures for their dealers and floor personnel, dealer training sessions on the game, a layout image so that they can produce a table felt to install it on a table, etc., etc., etc.

There's a lot involved in getting a casino game operating at a casino, and if they hadn't asked you to do these things or had taken these steps themselves, then they are just not really interested in getting your game onto their casino floor. If you hadn't done it for them, then THEY will not do it.

The first two dozen installs of my game occurred outside of Las Vegas, namely in California and the Mid-West - long before Las Vegas casinos installed my game, because each of them said "We'd be happy to install your game right here, right now," and they did so. And there was a LOT of work involved to get the game live: expensive math reports, dealer training sessions, Layout designs for the tables, gaming approval work to allow the game to be installed, the whole nine yards.

One of the most important things I ask myself about the prospects on any game that I had designed is: "Is this game really going to happen, for real?" "Do I have math reports, dealer training manuals, product description guides, table layout designs all ready to go?" and the like. If casino customers are not asking for THESE things, then they are not really interested in installing your game.
In order for a casino to seriously consider your game, they have to see:
Math reports that would be acceptable to gaming jurisdictions and authorities;

Table layout designs;

Documentation: Dealer manuals, supervisory manuals, dealing procedures, hands-per-hour statistics, table hold and house edge statistics, and the like.

Gaming letters of approval, to allow the game to be offered by a regulated casino.

Reviews of the game in industry periodicals, or good comments of the game from industry personnel.

and the like.
It is important to be realistic, and to have these things in place and at the ready for success to happen for your game. If they are not there, then you have to go about getting them in place.
-----------------
My position on game design is this: If you're going to follow through on a dream, an endeavor, then great. Try to make it happen for real by knowing what it takes. Half of the games I see are on sketches on napkins, the other half are polished "game starter kits" from real casino game people. The ones who are scared about the chances are the pros. Namely, Because if the game makes it to the casino, then the real work begins.

Dan: From the other side I can tell you that was a fantastic response and on the money. In the past couple of decades I've had a few dozen vendors, big and small, trial games for me. Here's the deciding factors, roughly in order:

-Will the table's expected profit exceed the profit of the table I'd like to replace plus the licensing fee difference?
-Will this game just cannibalize from another game on the floor?
-Does the vendor demonstrating the game seem insane?
-Is this game something my players will like?
-Do I have an existing relationship with the distributor?
-Are the rules so complicated the average player will shy away from the game?
-Is the staff training simple enough? Will frequent dealer mistakes and unfamiliarity significantly offset the profit (e.g. most BJ variants, slow reading of hands in Hold'Em variants, strange strategy/payouts)?
-Have my players heard of this game and/or played it other casinos?
-Do I get a free trial period?
-Is it licensed in my jurisdiction?
-Is it licensed in another jurisdiction?
-Can you give me a reference that I personally know that has trialed and kept the game?
-Is the math verified by a source I know of and trust (must have a letter)?
-If there's an electronic component, has it been verified by GLI (must have an approval letter)?
-Does the vendor have the layout in a format I can send right to my felt printer?
-Are there clear & concise manuals for the game?

*Note: #3 is high up there for a reason. I find a very large number of the independent game developers seem insane. They seem like the same people who would try to sell me a roulette system on the side.

Popcan,
I fully agree. The full list would have killed off any wannabee game designer in his right mind.

And #3 is a concern. One guy pigeonholed one of our execs (Paul) in the parking lot off Bermuda Road, and told the exec - "I have the NEW blackjack game design right here in my Van - on a COCKTAIL NAPKIN, you GOTTA SEE IT!" - and proceeded to open the back door to his Van, where 1,000,000 beer empties promptly spilled out all over the area, sounding like a chorus of Castanets. Would have made a great Youtube video....Frightening character....

Seriously, the list is important, namely #1 and #2 - "if the game doesn't make more money or get more action than what it replaces, then the game game will never be swapped into any casino..." Truly rule #1. Some borderline games get a shot, a chance, in replacing out a known dog, in the hopes of keeping table game pit real estate viable with something that might be a sleeper....

Most mathematicians just do the house edge based on the conditions and procedures of play, with the power rankings and strategy verification added for poker games, - leaving "all factors of desirability" to the inventor. No mathematician would ever say, "Do you really think your game is hot??!!"

Basically, I recommend to budding game designers:
1. Design a pitch on how the game is played. If you cannot make it clear, fun, and easy to play and explain in about 30 seconds, you're in trouble.
2. Write a game document with a layout picture, game rules, and dealing procedures.
3. Check to see if ANYTHING like this game has been patented by checking www.uspto.gov, and of course This excellent resource, where all existing type games are pretty damn well documented. If it's been done, and there's no way to work around it, scrap it.
4. File a provisional patent with a lawyer for ~ $500. ($120 for the filing fee, $380 for two hour's of lawyer hack time), and also "How to play this great game" play card on one side of a printed page.
5. Sanity check: Learn to deal the game to "casino worker strangers" - not friends and family who would falsely patronize him - after getting a REAL provisional patent filed - to see if the game has "play desirability." If it sucks, scrap it.
6. Do some basic math on it by hiring a gaming literate good math teacher or math undergrad or starving grad student to crunch the numbers for ~ $300 for a night's work, or hire a real mathematician for $2,500 and up.
7. Collect ALL notes, and find elegant solutions to problems found on the game (dealing procedure, game protection, silly-ass features to jettison, etc.) to re-design the game to fix it. Go BACK to the "30-second pitch" and re-write that, re-tracing all procedures to this point, including filing a second provisional patent if a new game.
8. Now examine:
- game play feasibility, in terms of ease-of-play and "funness"
- you have made a semi-professional layout on a board that fits on a kitchen table or pool table, and can deal it with a card shoe, etc.
- it is easy to deal.
- easy to protect from fraud/cheating.
- hands-per-hour is good.
- no rule confusion or rule ambiguity during play of the game; no unanswerable or unaddressable exceptions occur during game play.
- Game is fun with three bets maximum (one main bet, one bonus bet, one bad beat type bet maximum.)
- math is good; house edge is 1.5% to 3.5% on flat bets, ~ 7% on bonus type pay table bets in a verified excel (algebraic type) spreadsheet analysis.
- patent search, and all other similar type game searches are clear.
Any problems, repeat steps 1 through 8, else go to step 9.
9.Contact a casino shift manager, floorman, or very experienced dealer on a similar type game for a thorough analysis of it. Pay the bastard $150 for three hours of his time. Take down all notes and honest opinions supplied; repeat steps 1 through 9 until clear to go to next step.
10. Contact Shufflemaster, DEQ, or Galaxy Gaming via their game submittal process (their websites have info). If you get a rejection email or letter, there is a reason. Repeat steps 1 through 10 until you get a meeting with Roger S., Todd H. (Shufflemaster), Steve J., Dan L. (me) or Paul O. at DEQ, or Rob S. or Dean S. at Galaxy Gaming. During the latter steps of this process, attend Mass or Schul daily, or say Rosaries and Novenas.
11. Show up with patent proof, preliminary math (Algebraic math is acceptable at this point if provably correct, but be willing to spend $5K for a real math report), a How to play "Rack Card" sample, a product description guide, a layout or layour design, and be ready to deal the game about as well as a break-in casino dealer while answering questions on your game.
12. if they say the game is good, be willing to:
a) sign for 20% of the gross revenues
b) file for a full patent (another $7,000), and
c) be willing to wait several years for them to get the game out; of course you have an out clause in the contract, in case they don't perform after 12 months with zero activity.
13. get your provisional patent converted to a utility patent.

All issues of game's feasibility (the list above) will be handled by the distributor who signed you.
If you didn't sign with a distributor, then get $100,000 to get gaming approval for your game, and slick marketing and sales resources to get casinos to adopt your game.

14. Agree to anything reasonable the distributor or sponsoring casino operator asks of you.
15. Continue to pray and be patient without hounding them as to how long it is taking to get the game out.
16. Pray some more.

Wow, nice list. Some notes:

1. Good point about the 30 second demo. If I had EVER heard someone tell they could explain their game in 30 seconds it'd have a much better chance.
3. The USPTO is nice but if I'm searching for patents I prefer Espacenet. It just tends to be an easier interface to deal with.
8. Having a layout is good but really if you're an independent developer, you're offering a steep discount on licensing fees vs the major distributors, and can deal it without a layout I'll give you bonus points. (EDIT: Even the hardest hit casinos have a guy in Marketing that can produce a layout better suited to their casino in an hour than an independent developer could produce in a month.)
10. Yup. Like I said, using a distributor I have significantly increases your chances, especially if I can get a break on licensing fees due to the existing relationship and/or an extended trial.
11. I study gambling math as a hobby and algebraic math on a new game does nothing for me. Either show up with a letter from a mathematician I know or promise you'll get one before I trial it.
12. 20% of REVENUE? EZ Pai Gow is great Dan, but not that great :).

What is also helpful to newbie game designers are three accounts of what it all entails:

1. Game Masters at Eliot Jacobson's site. The stories of Henry Lo, a struggling game designer, and Derek Webb, the smash-hit inventor of Three card poker.

2. "Take My Game, Please, an RJ account of budding game designers who made it to Global Gaming Expo, seeking to be the next Ernie Moody or Derek Webb. One budding game inventor and spouse mortgage their homes and lives, spending one million, for a game that never made it to 10 tables - if any. Keep in mind that a typical proprietary table game can get $250 to $750 a month, of which you'll get a fifthe share of, you'll need 50 to 150 tables or more tables running continuously to make any "I can live off this" money. I know Switch hit this, and I did (barely), and it is not easy.

3. A short paper on the elements of a good casino game design, by yours truly, at an excellent mathematician's site.

Also see: Mike Shackleford's recommended reading list on this.

All good reads.

Quote: Paigowdan

I came across This game "Pojack" via LinkedIn. (No, it is not about a Greek-American detective...)
Had to check it out.
Basically, it is Blackjack with an option to continue your blackjack hand as a poker hand, if you had made both a BJ and Poker ANTE bet.
The thinking here was simply: "Well, if I mix these two great games together, then OF COURSE I MUST end up with something good.

This game reminds me of Three Way Action
Which is three games in one: Combat(War), Blackjack then Poker.

Also reminds me of my old game: Casino Holdem® + BlackJack
Which is two games in one: Casino Holdem® first then Blackjack

I think the inventor of PoJack should have saved the money he spent on that flashy but crappy website, and invested it somewhere else.

One of the things that flashed by in the intro is: "Ever want to play poker and blackjack at the same time?" Um, no. The closest most people ever come to "wanting" to play at the same time, is after looking at their two cards and the dealer's card, they say, "Hey look...." And that's the beauty of 21+3. The three card bet requires no extra thinking or decisions. And most of all, it doesn't affect the standard game or the undealt cards. Or need the dealer to qualify. I hate that crap too.

Quote: MathExtremist

I thought the days of trying to combine two (or more) games were over. I don't believe anyone's ever been successful with a new game that was just an amalgam of two other games. (I distinguish from side bets; many popular BJ bonus bets are related to poker somehow).

All this talk of combining games being a bad idea had me a little worried about my Poker For Roulette idea. But thanks for that side bet disclaimer. My idea is a side bet.


The timing of this thread is almost perfect. Just last night, I put the final touches on my product description document and sent it off to one of the people Dan mentioned. Luckily, the weeks it took me to complete it were not wasted. There is little in this thread that I didn't already consider.

Quote: PopCan

1. Good point about the 30 second demo. If I had EVER heard someone tell they could explain their game in 30 seconds it'd have a much better chance.

Here's my 10 second pitch:

Poker For Roulette: You're betting that the next 5 spins will produce something that looks like a poker hand.


If you give me a full 30 seconds, then I'll follow it up with:

It could be a single repeat for a Pair, all the same color for a Flush, Two Pair, Straights, etc., all the way up to Five Of A Kind, which pays a Progressive Jackpot.


I think I'm still under 30 seconds. :)

Quote: DJTeddyBear

All this talk of combining games being a bad idea had me a little worried about my Poker For Roulette idea. But thanks for that side bet disclaimer. My idea is a side bet.

Side bets are different, and are best unrelated to the base game's strategy or its effect on that strategy.
Pai gow with three-card poker first is downtown (Las Vegas), I think at Fitz, and kind of works well, but has few if any installs aside from that.
There is a HUGE difference between a good side bet that doesn't affect main-game play, and welding a totally foreign base game to another base game.
This is the difference between adding a little mushrooms or parmegean cheese to a plate of Fettucine Alfredo, and slathering your chocolate dessert cake into your plate of Fettucine Alfredo. One works, the other doesn't, even though both Fettucine Alfredo and Chocolate cake are delightful in themselves separately. They are "separate courses." It's like trying to listen to the Rolling Stones and the Beetles at the same time, or welding a car to the side of a boat. Also...'seperate courses," so to speak. just doesn't work or improve anything when put together like that. How this guy sees or thinks that it does is just denial.

Just because you come up with a new game idea doesn't necessarily make it a good game idea.
My Martini drink idea of 50% Gin and 50% Kalua with a splash of Grenadine and Budweiser with cream and Lime juice wasn't such a good drink idea either, come to think of it. I named it "The Freakin' Hurler." We're talking, "I'm FIRING MY LAZERRRss...."

Both Poker and Blackjack are great primary table games, - also, separately.

even-bob lmfao

Quote: PopCan

Wow, nice list. Some notes:

1. Good point about the 30 second demo. If I had EVER heard someone tell they could explain their game in 30 seconds it'd have a much better chance.

I always tell my clients that if the inventor can't explain it to a professional mathematician in 30 seconds, how can a dealer explain it to a new player in 60 seconds? Same idea, though. Basic Strategy in blackjack is widely disseminated and 95% of players still can't be bothered to learn it. This reflects how much effort they're willing to put into a FAMILIAR game, so think of how much effort they're willing to put into learning a new one.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Here's my 10 second pitch:

Poker For Roulette: You're betting that the next 5 spins will produce something that looks like a poker hand.


If you give me a full 30 seconds, then I'll follow it up with:

It could be a single repeat for a Pair, all the same color for a Flush, Two Pair, Straights, etc., all the way up to Five Of A Kind, which pays a Progressive Jackpot.


I think I'm still under 30 seconds. :)

Just looked at website PAYOFFS : Lists only poker hands.
LITERATURE : List poker payoffs , plus payoffs for red, black, even, odd, dozens ????

Roulette has almost 20% hold.
Do we really need to increase that?

Quote: buzzpaff

Just looked at website PAYOFFS : Lists only poker hands.
LITERATURE : List poker payoffs , plus payoffs for red, black, even, odd, dozens ????

Timing is everything.

That Payout page was updated Wednesday. For the past month or so, the payouts had been removed because I was tweaking it.

As a result, the literature is out of date. I'll take that down this afternoon. I'll probably have new literature PDFs up in a couple days to reflect the new payouts.

Thanks for reminding me.

When the site is totally up-to-date, I'll post about it in the Poker For Roulette thread.

Look forward ti it. Seems a real improvement. Only concern is whether bettors will really understand wild cards only used in starights, flushes, etc DO I understand 2 wild cards plus 6, 7, 8 = a set of 8's and not a straight ?

Quote: WongBo

Roulette has almost 20% hold.
Do we really need to increase that?

WongBo, how much hold percentage do you want the casino that you own, to hold?

Quote: PopCan

Wow, nice list. Some notes:

1. Good point about the 30 second demo. If I had EVER heard someone tell they could explain their game in 30 seconds it'd have a much better chance.
3. The USPTO is nice but if I'm searching for patents I prefer Espacenet. It just tends to be an easier interface to deal with.
8. Having a layout is good but really if you're an independent developer, you're offering a steep discount on licensing fees vs the major distributors, and can deal it without a layout I'll give you bonus points. (EDIT: Even the hardest hit casinos have a guy in Marketing that can produce a layout better suited to their casino in an hour than an independent developer could produce in a month.)
10. Yup. Like I said, using a distributor I have significantly increases your chances, especially if I can get a break on licensing fees due to the existing relationship and/or an extended trial.
11. I study gambling math as a hobby and algebraic math on a new game does nothing for me. Either show up with a letter from a mathematician I know or promise you'll get one before I trial it.
12. 20% of REVENUE? EZ Pai Gow is great Dan, but not that great :).

Not your revenue, the vendor's revenue. If you pay a distributor $500/mo for a new game, the distributor would keep $400 and pay the inventor $100. 20% is a common number. I've been part of deals going up to 50%. The split depends on how much work the inventor has done (math, patents, approvals, prior installs), whether the game is a side bet or a new game, and how much the product fits with the vendor's product line. Two of the deals I've done have been strategic for the vendor's hardware platforms, much like Let It Ride was developed to sell Shuffle Master's shuffler products.

You sound like you've been in gaming operations for a while -- how many games have you trialed, and of those how many did you keep?

Quote: Paigowdan

I came across This game "Pojack" via LinkedIn. (No, it is not about a Greek-American detective...)
Had to check it out.
Basically, it is Blackjack with an option to continue your blackjack hand as a poker hand, if you had made both a BJ and Poker ANTE bet.
The thinking here was simply: "Well, if I mix these two great games together, then OF COURSE I MUST end up with something good.

Remember the game with a similar name Call Pokerjack
It was play in Flamingo.
Does anybody know what happen to the game?

Buzz, et al -

I've responded to your questions, in my thread about Poker For Roulette.

Here's the post with the response:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/3259-poker-for-roulette-side-bet/4/#post125918

Quote: Paigowdan

Pai gow with three-card poker first is downtown (Las Vegas), I think at Fitz, and kind of works well, but has few if any installs aside from that.

To my knowledge the only casinos that I've been to that have Pai Gow Mania (3-card first, then PGP) is Wild Wild West at Bally's in AC, which is only open on weekends, and Harrah's St Louis. Harrah's St Louis gets quite a bit of play, or did, though now they have Fortune PGP, so who knows. Before, it was your only option.

Places that DID have it at one time, though not anymore, include Isle of Capri KC, Ameristar St Charles (across the river from Harrah's St Louis).

Quote: Tiltpoul

To my knowledge the only casinos that I've been to that have Pai Gow Mania (3-card first, then PGP) is Wild Wild West at Bally's in AC, which is only open on weekends, and Harrah's St Louis. Harrah's St Louis gets quite a bit of play, or did, though now they have Fortune PGP, so who knows. Before, it was your only option.

Places that DID have it at one time, though not anymore, include Isle of Capri KC, Ameristar St Charles (across the river from Harrah's St Louis).

Why the hell casinos took a working game off the floor, if it did indeed work (a lot of play)?

Quote: UCivan

Why the hell casinos took a working game off the floor, if it did indeed work (a lot of play)?

The only place I saw it get a lot of play was Harrah's St Louis, and as I mentioned, they installed Fortune PGP, so some people switched over to that. WWW at Bally's is only open a small amount of hours, and while people play it when it's open, they don't give it enough time to succeed. IoC KC didn't get much action, nor did Ameristar St Charles.

To be honest, it's kind of a sucker game. It can be addicting, as a good three card hand can make up for a bad hand otherwise, but you can lose a lot of money pretty quickly with all the extra bets. Plus the paytable on the PGP Bonus hand is atrocious.

Quote: Paigowdan

dear sir;

have taken my game to many casino's and have tried it
privately. black jack is played first and poker is
played after similar to crib poker. using your bj cards.
only extra cards are give to who ever is playing poker. it is
quite fast and casino like it. but they want to see it
in Vegas first.

tray it at home or in your office.

From the poor spelling, lack of caps, awful sentence
structure, this guy has to be a foreigner, Asian probably.
He has a poor command of English which will not help
him in selling his game. Does he know 95% of all game
designers fail?

Quote: EvenBob

From the poor spelling, lack of caps, awful sentence
structure, this guy has to be a foreigner, Asian probably.
He has a poor command of English which will not help
him in selling his game. Does he know 95% of all game
designers fail?

Could he be Jeremy Lin? WTF

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Paigowdan

dear sir;

have taken my game to many casino's and have tried it
privately. black jack is played first and poker is
played after similar to crib poker. using your bj cards.
only extra cards are give to who ever is playing poker. it is
quite fast and casino like it. but they want to see it
in Vegas first.

tray it at home or in your office.

From the poor spelling, lack of caps, awful sentence
structure, this guy has to be a foreigner, Asian probably.
He has a poor command of English which will not help
him in selling his game. Does he know 95% of all game
designers fail?

I would say 99.999% of all game designers fail.

Quote: EvenBob

From the poor spelling, lack of caps, awful sentence
structure, this guy has to be a foreigner, Asian probably.
He has a poor command of English which will not help
him in selling his game. Does he know 95% of all game
designers fail?

Contrary to EvenBob's assertion, many Asians write very well and invent good games, MrCasinoGames is one example. May I suggest EvenBob guess the color of the inventor's skin next.

When i worked at AT&T I was constantly amazed by the N & S Koreans, Russians, etc who spoken almost perfect English. Even more amazing was the apologetic manner they would have when stumped on a word or phrase. Didn't they realize the guy on the other end of the line only spoke English and was in awe of them !

That being said, the inventor really needed to solicit some help in make his proposal grammatically correct. So that he would seem professional, to say the least.

Quote: Paigowdan

1. Game Masters at Eliot Jacobson's site. The stories of Henry Lo, a struggling game designer, and Derek Webb, the smash-hit inventor of Three card poker.

2. "Take My Game, Please, an RJ account of budding game designers who made it to Global Gaming Expo, seeking to be the next Ernie Moody or Derek Webb. One budding game inventor and spouse mortgage their homes and lives, spending one million, for a game that never made it to 10 tables - if any. Keep in mind that a typical proprietary table game can get $250 to $750 a month, of which you'll get a fifthe share of, you'll need 50 to 150 tables or more tables running continuously to make any "I can live off this" money. I know Switch hit this, and I did (barely), and it is not easy.

Paigowdan,

You mention two names: Derek Webb, (the smash-hit inventor of Three card poker) and Geoff Hall (inventor of Blackjack Switch).

It may surprise you to know that Derek Webb, Geoff Hall and my self (Inventor of Casino Hold'em®, Play Live 150+ tables and Play Online 700+ Casinos) are all from UK.
The three of us has been good friends since 25+ years ago, and are still good friends today.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Quote: Paigowdan

1. Game Masters at Eliot Jacobson's site. The stories of Henry Lo, a struggling game designer, and Derek Webb, the smash-hit inventor of Three card poker.

2. "Take My Game, Please, an RJ account of budding game designers who made it to Global Gaming Expo, seeking to be the next Ernie Moody or Derek Webb. One budding game inventor and spouse mortgage their homes and lives, spending one million, for a game that never made it to 10 tables - if any. Keep in mind that a typical proprietary table game can get $250 to $750 a month, of which you'll get a fifthe share of, you'll need 50 to 150 tables or more tables running continuously to make any "I can live off this" money. I know Switch hit this, and I did (barely), and it is not easy.

Paigowdan,

You mention two names: Derek Webb, (the smash-hit inventor of Three card poker) and Geoff Hall (inventor of Blackjack Switch).

It may surprise you to know that Derek Webb, Geoff Hall and my self (Inventor of Casino Hold'em®, Play Live 150+ tables and Play Online 700+ Casinos) are all from UK.
The three of us has been good friends since 25+ years ago, and are still good friends today.

Dan, I feel compelled to warn you. I do not know about Derek Webb, but DO NOT play poker with Geoff or Stephen .

Quote: buzzpaff

Dan, I feel compelled to warn you. I do not know about Derek Webb, but DO NOT play poker with Geoff or Stephen .

Don't forget, Derek's version of playing poker has the direction of play flip-flopping after each betting round.

PTG Poker

Let's not forget both Geoff and Stephen are world class Texas Hold'em champions. Where do you think Stephen found the time to practice all those chip tricks?? LOL

PTG seemed like a good idea, but unfortunately not to most poker players SIGH At least not among American players.
But then OMAHA is preferred in Europe, I think!

Quote: MathExtremist

Not your revenue, the vendor's revenue.

Oops, should have realized that. I was up too late last night.

Quote: MathExtremist

You sound like you've been in gaming operations for a while -- how many games have you trialed, and of those how many did you keep?

I'd say, conservatively, a new game or sidebet idea is submitted by a known distributor, an independent developer, or an employee about three times a month. Of those we'll actually look at maybe one a month. By look at I mean read the literature thoroughly, do a bit a of research, and, in the case of a new game, see if we can deal a few test games just from the information in the literature. We'll trial a game/sidebet maybe three times a year and keep about one per year. Of the ones we've kept past the trial period I'll guess about 75% were from known distributors.

I forgot to note before how important it is that the game can be dealt by someone who's done nothing but read the supplied literature. We'll usually adapt the game to our carni game procedures so only the basic gameplay needs to be described.

Also, I mentioned employees up there because employees have come to us in the past with sidebet ideas. I believe we trialed one and it didn't work out many years ago and a couple of years ago we actually had a sidebet submitted by an employee that we still use to this day. (I don't want to name the side bet since I'd rather not reveal where I work.)

Quote: buzzpaff

Let's not forget both Geoff and Stephen are world class Texas Hold'em champions. Where do you think Stephen found the time to practice all those chip tricks?? LOL

Thanks buzzpaff,

For anybody who is interested in Chip Tricks. Have a look at my Chip Tricks videos website: ChipTricks.TV

Here are three of the Chip Tricks Videos:
6-Chips Flower + Christmas Tree / Highlights 57 Chip Tricks / Tutorial: Anti-Gravity (Muscle Pass)

Quote: UCivan

Contrary to EvenBob's assertion, many Asians write very well and invent good games.

Please point out where I said Asians don't invent
good games.

Everyone would agree, a good game inventor has to write / communicate well (or have a good ghost writer) - so he / she can sell game / market game fun / specs to math guy / explain to TGD / train dealers / develop players, as an integral part of the successful skill set. When you think Asians do not write well, then you're leading to the idea that they are inferior game inventors.

Quote: PopCan

I'd say, conservatively, a new game or sidebet idea is submitted by a known distributor, an independent developer, or an employee about three times a month. Of those we'll actually look at maybe one a month. By look at I mean read the literature thoroughly, do a bit a of research, and, in the case of a new game, see if we can deal a few test games just from the information in the literature. We'll trial a game/sidebet maybe three times a year and keep about one per year. Of the ones we've kept past the trial period I'll guess about 75% were from known distributors.

That's very interesting stuff. I'd have guessed that number would be higher. There aren't too many known distributors: SMI, Galaxy, DEQ, Gaming Network, are probably biggest, plus some regional ones like NTG or INAG. Within the past few months SMI bought the Fire Bet and Galaxy bought Prime, so perhaps there's a bit of M&A going on.

Quote:

I forgot to note before how important it is that the game can be dealt by someone who's done nothing but read the supplied literature. We'll usually adapt the game to our carni game procedures so only the basic gameplay needs to be described.

It's amazing how often new game inventors focus only on the gameplay from the standpoint of the player -- how fun it is, how much they can win, how easy it is to play. None of that matters if the dealer can't deal the game, or it's too slow, or any of the myriad reasons for a game to be operationally impractical.

Quote:

Also, I mentioned employees up there because employees have come to us in the past with sidebet ideas. I believe we trialed one and it didn't work out many years ago and a couple of years ago we actually had a sidebet submitted by an employee that we still use to this day. (I don't want to name the side bet since I'd rather not reveal where I work.)

I've done math on several games invented by dealers and floor supervisors. They usually have the best grasp of what it takes to make a game profitable to spread, and as a result they're the easiest to work with. The folks from entirely outside the industry tend to be the least realistic. I was handling 3rd-party submissions for a slot company when I received a pitch for a blackjack variation (we had a video BJ product). It started with the player always having two aces and then making the play decision. Except two aces is +EV for the player...

And believe me, I understand wanting to remain anonymous in your position. Thanks for the feedback -- it's good stuff.

Lucid Interval was not so lucid Sorry