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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 25th, 2010 at 11:34:17 PM permalink
Let me bounce this by you guys.
I came up, with a friend, another Pai Gow game - actually a bad beat side bet for pai Gow poker. Went pretty far with it, prelim math and a good provisional patent.

Back in May, a fellow dealer (Paul Q.) and I were walking to the break room at Fiesta Henderson, passing by the Poker room.
Paul stated a game idea. He said - "what about a bad beat bet for pai Gow poker, like for poker room poker. You know, a four of a kind loses to a straight flush."
I said "naa..in PGP, that'll happen like once in every 25K hands. That's a non-starter," and we left it at that.

But when I got home, I starting thinking..."what if a pair of aces or so (a decent hand) loses to a two pair hand (slightly better) - as the starting point - to also pay very large and upwards when quads loses to a stronger hand..." I tweaked it to hit > 5% of the time, like most bonus bets.

And that'll work.

I took out the scientific calculator, fired up excel, and worked out a side bet, and wrote a provisional patent. A few days work. A very nice little bet.
Originally, I had a quandary, because when I wrote the patent with the new specs, I had just my name on it. But then, conscience got to me, and I filed it as me and Paul as co-inventors of this little beast.

I think this'll make a fine alternative to just Pai Gow insurance as a negative bet, with a very fine and flexible payout table. If you lose a "winning" hand, you get a good payout and some gambling satisfaction.

I'll shop it around in the near future, and see what happens...any feedback guys?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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October 26th, 2010 at 2:39:06 AM permalink
How about touting a side bet as better-than-usual side bet HE, similar or equal to main HE, or [God forbid?] better than main HE? The Casino would never go for it? Too few gamblers would even care?

To answer the question, players seem to like it in poker, so I think you would have instant recognition for what it is and players would like it. Go for it!
Baccarat is a game whereby the croupier gathers in money with a flexible sculling oar, then rakes it home. If I could have borrowed his oar I would have stayed. ~Mark Twain
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 26th, 2010 at 3:28:41 AM permalink
Yes, pretty much true....the bet would "hold" poorly if it goes under 3%% or less HE, and gamblers wouldn't notice or care if it's still within a reasonable range. Side bets with a multiple payout table in the 2:1 to 100:1+ range should have a house edge of about 5% to 7% or so.

I think it would have appeal, it's an interesting and "saving" bet, in the Pai Gow Insurance sense. Your hand is a "no loss" if it is of a certain strength level.

It might be complicated for the dealers; if it is of a certain level AND it loses to a stronger hand THEN use the payout table.

The table would look like:

Bad Beat Loss:
Pair Aces..............: x:1
two pairs together : y:1
two pairs split.......: z:1
trips.....................: a:1
straight................: b:1
flush....................: c:1
full house (all)......: d:1
Quads and up.......: e:1

I wouldn't have a "straight flush or better loss" level; that's kind of like having a seven card straight flush natural on a bonus bet, it's more show than real math and game occurances.

It's still being tweaked, hence the variables in the payout table.
I have to consider:
a) Hit ratio: the new bet needs to payout at least every so often, to act "like a side bet" and not like a progressive. I can adjust the one pair starting point if needed. Ideally a table-based bonus bet should 'hit' at least once in eight hands or so.
b) Simplicity and straightforwardness, so that it's easy to learn, play, and deal. I cannot specify that "the two-card side of this level and a five-card of that level" along with the other criteria; I plan to keep it basically a "hand type." I may consolidate two pairs split/unsplit as just "two pairs present."
c) And within a house edge range of 5%-7%.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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October 26th, 2010 at 8:41:32 AM permalink
My first thought is that you could sell the side bet to the casino by pointing out that some players with their eyes on the prize might play their hands suboptimally--for instance, misplaying two pair, or not splitting a full house. That would be evil--a side bet that increases the chances of the player losing the main bet! Bwahahahahaaaaaaa.

Also, would the "bad beat" mean you have to lose the hand? You could have a flush with AK in front, and the dealer could have a higher flush with AJ in front, and you would push the bet, even though your flush had "lost". Would you still get the bonus?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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October 26th, 2010 at 8:54:43 AM permalink
I like this idea a lot. The insurance bet always seemed too pessimistic to me (I don't *want* to have a 9 high pai gow), and this is a good way to basically bet the negative side of a hand.

Also, gotta say, last weekend I pushed on a 6666x/99 hand on your EZ PGP game (dealer's q-high). Damn you, Dan Lubin!! :-P
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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October 26th, 2010 at 10:23:46 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

...or [God forbid?]...

I think that answers that question.

Quote: odiousgambit

How about ... better than main HE? The Casino would never go for it? Too few gamblers would even care?

Even if the casino would go for it (which they won't), the average player would not realize, or even believe, that a side bet pays better than the basic game.

Quote: odiousgambit

...players seem to like it in poker...

The operative word here is 'seem'.

Poker players love being involved when it hits. But if you really start to analyze it, it sucks. When you start to over-think your hand and play it differently because of the possibility of the bad beat ... there's no way to sugar coat it ... it just fucks up the game.

I was in a hand where I had pocket Jacks. The flop was Jh, Th, 6x. A couple bets and calls making the pot about $65. I go all-in for over $250. One guy who only had $15 left called, everyone else folds to the guy on my right. He thinks about it FOREVER. He ends up showing me the hand as he's still thinking about it, trying to get a reaction. He had Kh, Qh. He had the second nut flush draw, open ended straight, and straight-flush and Royal draws. He finally folded.

Because of the other all-in player, we saw the cards to come. He would have hit a flush and beat me. But if he would have hit a straight-flush, and if I would have picked up the last Jack, I would be a dead man, because I got him to fold a bad-beat hand.

If I would have thought about it, and played it hoping to hit the bad beat, I would have lost to the flush.

See how it can fuck up the game?




That said, Dan's Pai-Gow Bad-Beat is a different animal. I like the concept.


Dan -

Can you push the basic bet and win the Bad-Beat, or do you have to lose both?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard 
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October 26th, 2010 at 11:11:03 AM permalink
I like the idea. I'd make it jackpot style, with a progressive jackpot that hits around $100,000.

Unfortunately, it is hard for the little guy to sell games with big pay tables. If a player hits it while the game is still green, the guy who approved it will have his ass on the line. Why take the chance?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 26th, 2010 at 11:26:34 AM permalink
The bad beat bet wins when the player loses on a strong hand that normally should not have lost.

The thing about the bet is that people won't play the hand differently, because a rare hit should not affect best play, and because playing the strong element is often overlapping as the best play. (I mean, you would not play a straight as a pai gow type hand.)

With two pairs and a straight or flush, where two pairs is the best hand setting (it isn't always, in spite of most house ways), then the bet is considered as it is played, because a loss on the main bet hand setting is a factor in the bet's winning or losing. People will not be able to set a straight hand with two low pairs as two low pairs, and claim that the straight had lost. The poker elements that had lost is what is counted.

The hand 6544322 is an example, which is best played as 42/65432 instead of two WEAK pairs. If played as 22/44632 and it lost, it would pay as two split pairs losing, not as a straight, because the straight did not lose, it was the two pairs.

Only with the "push your luck" BJ tie bet do people play their hands differently, hitting stiffs against a dealer's bust card on the chance that both hands will become pat (good), and tied.

By the way rdw4potus, where do you play EZ Pai Gow? San Diego? Henderson? at an Ameristar casino? Would love to know.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 26th, 2010 at 11:40:48 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I like the idea. I'd make it jackpot style, with a progressive jackpot that hits around $100,000.

Unfortunately, it is hard for the little guy to sell games with big pay tables. If a player hits it while the game is still green, the guy who approved it will have his ass on the line. Why take the chance?



Mike, Thank you for the opinion, it means a lot.

I would love a progressive built around it, but see it as a table spot.
The progressive does risk a brutal beating at the Hands of Murphy's Law. The first night that EZ Pai Gow went live at the Fiesta, it gave up Five Aces for $2,500. That looked bad, but was totally survive-able.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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October 26th, 2010 at 11:55:39 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


By the way rdw4potus, where do you play EZ Pai Gow? San Diego? Henderson? at an Ameristar casino? Would love to know.



I gave it a whirl at the Fiesta Henderson when I was there last week. I didn't realize that was the casino where you worked, or I'd have tried to find you. It sucked pushing on quads with a pair up, especially when the dealer had a q-high pai gow. I've had that happen before when the dealer split two pair (I had 4444/22 that time), but this stung a little more.

I think EZ PGP is a great idea. It seems to do what the house would want it to - speed up the rate of play, keep more higher-denomination chips in the players hands, and (slightly) raise the HE.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett

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