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charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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July 13th, 2017 at 11:33:00 PM permalink
I can see through the various iterations you've done there are a number of different bets.
(1) Bet made during the shooter's roll that they will eventually make the current point and then eventually re-establish the same point for their next roll.
(2) Bet made during the shooter's roll that they will eventually miss the current point and the next shooter re-establishes the same point for their first roll.
(3) Bet made that the next point, regardless of the outcome of this set of rolls, will be the same as this point.

Personally I suspect it's easier for a casino to be able to clear the table on a 7-out - either by paying don't-like bets and taking everything else. Other than that I prefer the original bet you proposed, that the shooter will stay on and the next point will be the same.
NewToCraps
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July 14th, 2017 at 3:34:54 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Personally I suspect it's easier for a casino to be able to clear the table on a 7-out - either by paying don't-like bets and taking everything else.

I guess I figured having a bet stay after a seven-out was kinda "unique and beating the system", but I had not thought about how it may make a dealers job more difficult clearing the table on a seven-out (as well as taking more time to carefully clear most but not all) - GOOD POINT - I will have to think about that .....
Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D
wudged
wudged
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July 14th, 2017 at 7:21:01 AM permalink
Looks like a good bet - but I think the point vs. seven portions add unnecessary confusion.

If you just say the bet is resolved once a point is established, and pays based off the entire wager, it is much easier to understand.

Also, what is the harm in allowing the bet to be made during a come out roll? As long as the dealers marked the previous point, it would still work the same way.
DJTeddyBear
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3Dice
July 14th, 2017 at 8:32:59 AM permalink
I don't get the whole thing about how it's partially live.

But at any rate, if you're really interested in the same point being reestablished, why can't you just make a hop bet on a come out roll?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
mustangsally
mustangsally
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July 14th, 2017 at 9:46:52 AM permalink
many craps tables do not allow a hop bet.

Looking at the image in the patent,
seems the don't come boxes are removed.

I would put yourself into the shoes of the boxman
and think of how this can mess up the game.

That 7out that does not clear all bets
could be a thorn-in-the-side, imo

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NewToCraps
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July 14th, 2017 at 4:13:48 PM permalink
Quote: wudged

Looks like a good bet - but I think the point vs. seven portions add unnecessary confusion.

If you just say the bet is resolved once a point is established, and pays based off the entire wager, it is much easier to understand.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I don't get the whole thing about how it's partially live.

Quote: mustangsally

I would put yourself into the shoes of the boxman
and think of how this can mess up the game.

That 7out that does not clear all bets
could be a thorn-in-the-side, imo

OK ... redone to look simplier, as well as getting rid of bet staying active after a seven-out.
No more "portion of a wager" idea. The payout is much HIGHER now.



BACK ON BET sm
A CRAPS SIDE BET
A Back On Betsm is
a bet that after a point is made,
the next point is established with the same number.

  • After the point is established,
    you can make a Back On Betsm wager on the current point number.
    • If the point is made, your Back On Betsm remains active.
      • If a seven-out is rolled, your bet loses
    • If the next established point number is the same as the previous point number,
      your Back On Betsm WINS !!
      • If the next established point number is different than the previous point number,
        your bet loses.

    1. A Back On Betsm can only be initiated on the current point number
      after the point is established, but before the point is made.
    2. An existing bet can be increased only before the point is made.
    3. Once established it:
        cannot be taken down,
        cannot be turned off and
        cannot be reduced.
    4. Wager increments are five dollars.

    The Point is been established as a 4

    A $5 wager is made on a Back On Betsm
    • With a roll of 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 - the bet is unresolved.
    • With a roll of 7, a seven out - the bet is resolved as a loss
    • With a roll of 4, the point is made - the bet is unresolved and stays active.

    • The same shooter continues to roll, and at this point
      • With a roll of 2, 3, 7, 11 or 12 - the bet is unresolved.
      • With a roll of 5, 6, 8, 9 or 10, a new point is established - the bet is resolved as a loss.
      • With a roll of 4, the same point is reestablished - The bet is resolved as a WIN
      Your $5 wager pays $115 !
      .

    . Wager Payout . . Payout Ratio . . House Edge . . Standard Deviation .
    Point 4 or 10
    $115 for $5
    23 for 1
    4.17 %
    4.60
    Point 5 or 9
    $70 for $5
    14 for 1
    6.67 %
    3.49
    Point 6 or 8
    $50 for $5
    10 for 1
    5.30 %
    2.93
    Last edited by: NewToCraps on Jul 14, 2017
    Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D
    Mission146
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    July 14th, 2017 at 5:48:36 PM permalink
    I just want to make sure I understand this bet, and then I'll offer a few comments. Please understand that I'm not trying to poo-poo this idea, if this is the only bet you have patented, that is still one more than I have!

    I look at this Point of Four, let's call it, and here's what I'm getting:

    Probability of Winning: (3/9) * (3/24) = 0.04166666666

    Now, bets are on a For-One basis, thus:

    (0.04166666666 * 110) - ((1-0.04166666666) * 5) = -0.2083333341

    Which is an expected loss of $0.20833 on a $5 bet which represents a House Edge of 4.1667%, which agrees with your figures.

    It would be the same for any other numbers, in terms of how to arrive at the house edge.

    My Questions/Comments

    1.) I can understand why having the bet still working after a Seven-Out might be a PITA for the dealers, but then again, couldn't you just have a different box for the bets completely away from the main layout? You could have it be like the Fire Bet where the player's chip gets slid to a circle marked with the player's designated, 'Number,' until resolved. Since the bet resolves on a new point established no matter what, no bets would get in the way of one another. You could just put a number near the box where the bets go indicating what point number the bet is, 'On.'

    The reason why I suggest that is because, without the feature of the bet staying up, this just comes off as a really bizarre sort of Proposition Bet that, while not exactly a one roll prop (two rolls matter and we don't know how long they'll take) kind of resolves similarly to a one roll prop.

    Of course that brings us to the idea in the OP:

    2.) (33 * 3/24) - (5 * 21/24) = -0.25 Expected Loss $0.25, House Edge 5.00%

    (Just making sure I understood how the bet functioned)

    -On this, I think the main problem was designating how much of the bet is or is not active after a seven-out. It doesn't matter, it's completely irrelevant whether or not the current hand is a seven-out. All you are doing is betting on whether or not the next point will be the same as the current point. It just seems like not paying attention to, "The bet is reduced," sort of verbiage makes it easier to understand. The bet pays the same no matter what. I don't understand the point of all of this, 'Proportional,' verbiage.

    -How would you explain the OP version to a player? Simple: "You are betting the next point number will be the same as the point that is on."

    With that said, I offer this:

    3.) With the way that it works in the OP, this functions even closer to the way a one roll Proposition bet would function. Except, it could take more than one roll. I guess one thing that I don't understand is why you couldn't call it something like, 'Pick Your Point,' and make it a bet that can be made on any number before the CO roll, or anytime as essentially a Hop Bet, for that matter. I get that it's not a Hop Bet in the strictest sense, but it does resolve 66% of the time.

    Offering it before the CO roll actually makes the most sense to me, because if you do that, players may place a bet on multiple numbers, if they like, and it also doesn't interfere with a seven-out clearing the layout if you do it that way.

    4.) Finally, I don't know that this really calls for a $5 bet, especially not with the most recent version that you posted. I mean, the hit rate on something like a six is:

    (5/11) * (5/24) = 0.09469696969 (45 * 0.09469696969) - ((1-0.09469696969)*5) = -0.2651515155 Expected Loss 5.303% HE

    Okay, so essentially a 9.5% Hit Rate, at best.

    I guess my point is that if you're going to ask for main bet money for a side bet that doesn't have a main bet hit rate, it's not going to take the player seeing too many red chips disappear to lose interest.

    I could definitely understand the $5 on the version of the bet highlighted in the OP, the hit rate is much higher. 12.5%-20.83% depending on the number. That would still be a low hit rate for a base game, but reasonable enough for a $5 side bet.

    WHAT I WOULD DO

    My opinion and $0.50 would get you a cup of coffee ten years ago, now maybe half a cup at a gas station, but here's what I would do...and I don't even know that it would make this something I would play:

    A.) Keep the version in the OP, keep the $5 minimum (especially since the pays are wonky without it) and make it so that the bet takes place BEFORE the CO (or anytime) and can be made on multiple numbers if the player likes. If it's before the CO only, then it will never interfere with the sweep on a seven-out.

    B.) Keep the most recent version you posted, with the same rules, but make the minimum bet $1 due to the low hit rate. I mean, you're going to be competing for market share against the Fire and ATS and the Fire Bet (while less likely) offers more of a lottery style ridiculously huge payout and generally has a $1 minimum. Granted, the Fire Bet has a higher house edge, but do you really expect the average Craps player to have any inkling, if they make side bets in the first place, of the difference?

    Your bet is closer to the ATS in terms of payouts, and that one comes with a $1 minimum. The payouts on the ATS are actually a little higher relative to the amount bet, of course, they have a lower hit rate.

    I just don't see how this fills any great need at the $5 level, or any great want, for that matter...with the second version. Ignoring the House Edge, it seems most similar to a Hop Bet to me (other than the multi-roll factor) and those are a buck. Hard Ways are a buck. A Crap Check is a buck.
    Vultures can't be choosers.
    BlueEagle
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    NewToCraps
    July 14th, 2017 at 9:00:05 PM permalink
    I think the Back On Bet (I dislike the redundancy of "BOB bet") is more appealing if it remains live after a seven out. Actually, it has no appeal to me if it does not stay live after a seven out.

    If the side bet is positioned outside of the main area (like a Fire Bet) or directly in front of the bank, I think the dealers could easily become accustomed to sweeping around the bets after a seven out. (However, I have no experience dealing, so like Mission146 said, my opinion and $0.50 would get you a cup of coffee...)

    The only confusion I have with the OP is the verbiage about the bet being devalued after the point is made or seven out. There is no verbiage about the payout being different when the next point is established. If the payout is the same regardless, then there should be no distinction.

    The way I understand it, the bet is resolved every time a point is established on a come out roll. The dealers either collect the bet or payout a win. At this time or any time before the next point is established, the players can make a new Back On Bet. I see no reason for the bet to have to be made before the current point is made or seven out, only that the bet must be made before the next point is established.
    Mission146
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    NewToCraps
    July 14th, 2017 at 11:31:28 PM permalink
    Quote: BlueEagle



    The only confusion I have with the OP is the verbiage about the bet being devalued after the point is made or seven out. There is no verbiage about the payout being different when the next point is established. If the payout is the same regardless, then there should be no distinction.

    The way I understand it, the bet is resolved every time a point is established on a come out roll. The dealers either collect the bet or payout a win. At this time or any time before the next point is established, the players can make a new Back On Bet. I see no reason for the bet to have to be made before the current point is made or seven out, only that the bet must be made before the next point is established.



    I agree entirely with your first two paragraphs, other than to say the second version might be okay at a $1 minimum, in my opinion.

    FIRST QUOTED PARAGRAPH: Based on the way I did the math, my figures agree with the OP and the bet is paid the same regardless. That's why I agree that all that verbiage is unnecessary and confusing. Here's how a dealer would explain it: "The point is four, if you make this bet and four is the next point established, this bet will win you x$. If any other point is the next point established, the bet will lose."

    The seven doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter at all whether the current Line Bet (ie. The Point) wins or there is a seven-out. Completely irrelevant in the OP version. The only thing that matters is whether the next point is the same.

    SECOND QUOTED PARAGRAPH: I could understand why you would only want the bet to be made after a point is established, and that's because you want to resolve all of the bets at the same time. Besides, if the player makes the bet beforehand, then the player makes it not even knowing what the next point established is going to be. I guess you could do that, but if you're going to give the player the option to do it after the point is established anyway, then it is easier from a procedural sense to (generally) take all the bets at once and definitely pay them all at once.

    Also, I think it makes sense when it comes to the flow of the game. Players usually wait until a point is established and then there is a flurry of activity in terms of Place Bets and Hard Ways, so you could just have players get in the habit of throwing a red chip on this bad boy just as easily as they toss in $12 and call, "Six and Eight."
    Vultures can't be choosers.
    Canyonero
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    NewToCraps
    July 15th, 2017 at 3:16:16 AM permalink
    I think it is important to allow the bet after the point is made or a seven out. (And there is no reason not to allow it.) It would be very craps for players to yell "back on" and toss a chip in the middle just before a new come out roll.

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