VPBJ24
VPBJ24
Joined: Apr 20, 2017
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April 20th, 2017 at 9:43:29 AM permalink
Hi everyone, this is my first post! I really love VP, so I bought a couple books on the topic. It was brought to my attention that some VP are Video Lottery Terminal aka fake/ not worth playing.

I wanted some clarification on how to determine whether the machines are fake before I go wasting my paycheck on them. I read that in New York State you have to be extra careful.

Casinos near me (upstate ny):
Finger Lakes Gaming Race track = racino = VLC?
Seneca Niagara/Creek = Indian = ?
Del Lago = Commercial = ?
Turning Stone = Indian = ?
.......

I did some further investigation for Del Lago specifically, and there were primarily two types of machines;
*IGT Game King multi game *
*Wms / scientific gaming (multi hands up to 10)*

Extra info: For Del Lago at the best case scenario the pay tables calculated:
98.91%
Deuces

98.45%
Jacks or Better

98.01%
Bonus poker
..........

Ultimately, I would like to know if Del Lago or any of the other casinos have an actual RNG.

-Thanks so much!
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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April 20th, 2017 at 10:35:44 AM permalink
Quote: VPBJ24

Hi everyone, this is my first post! I really love VP, so I bought a couple books on the topic. It was brought to my attention that some VP are Video Lottery Terminal aka fake/ not worth playing.

I wanted some clarification on how to determine whether the machines are fake before I go wasting my paycheck on them. I read that in New York State you have to be extra careful.

Casinos near me (upstate ny):
Finger Lakes Gaming Race track = racino = VLC?
Seneca Niagara/Creek = Indian = ?
Del Lago = Commercial = ?
Turning Stone = Indian = ?
.......

I did some further investigation for Del Lago specifically, and there were primarily two types of machines;
*IGT Game King multi game *
*Wms / scientific gaming (multi hands up to 10)*

Extra info: For Del Lago at the best case scenario the pay tables calculated:
98.91%
Deuces

98.45%
Jacks or Better

98.01%
Bonus poker
..........

Ultimately, I would like to know if Del Lago or any of the other casinos have an actual RNG.

-Thanks so much!

I wouldn't say they are not worth playing PERIOD. Given the right situation(adding in some type of promotion of course), they could be +EV. Unless you had specific information regarding the VP, I would find out what the state minimum payback was and use that when calculating the situation.

I also wouldn't assume hand cycles are what they should be on a fair VP machine.

Some people are skeptical of any game using an RNG in an Indian casino, doesn't matter if its VLC, IGT or whatever.

Some long time VP pros have been getting fairly bad results playing VP at many Indian joints. Is it paranoid selective memory? I don't really know, but they avoid playing small edges at many Indian casinos, even on IGT.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
VPBJ24
VPBJ24
Joined: Apr 20, 2017
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April 20th, 2017 at 10:55:16 AM permalink
Thanks, so are those machines RNG or VLT?
RS
RS 
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
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April 20th, 2017 at 11:00:26 AM permalink
Take this with a grain of salt or however the saying goes. I've only heard of the following being a thing you can do, not sure if it works on all types or not, or whatever, as I've never done it.

Anyway, if it's a VLT or bingo machine or whatever, apparently the win or loss is predetermined and it doesn't matter what you hold, you'll get the same payout. If that holds true, then you should be able to wait until you get dealt a decent hand like a flush, straight, etc. then hold 2 of the cards, and see if you redraw that same hand (or same payout). Even on a random machine, this could happen as well. So if it happens, keep trying it a few more times to verify it's a VLT or fake-VP machine.

But I'm sure others who have more experience in this field can explain more (or say if I'm right or wrong).
"should of played 'Go Fish' today ya peasant" -typoontrav
JB
Administrator
JB
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
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April 20th, 2017 at 11:02:53 AM permalink
You can identify the fake casinos by looking at the NY Lottery website:

http://nylottery.ny.gov/wps/portal/Home/Lottery/Home/Video+Gaming/VIDEO+GAMING+REPORTS

So Finger Lakes is a VLT house (fake video poker).

Seneca, Turning Stone - these are Indian casinos with class III gaming (real video poker).

Del Lago appears to be one of the new resort casinos, not run by the NY lottery, so it could be class III, but I can't say for sure.

The best way to tell if the VP at Del Lago is fake is to play something like Jacks or Better, and if you are dealt a high pair such as 2-3-7-J-J, try holding 2-3-7-J to see what happens. If there is a "match card bonus" or a genie/fairy/wizard helps you out, then it is fake video poker. If you end up losing the hand with no fanfare, you can be fairly sure it is class III.
VPBJ24
VPBJ24
Joined: Apr 20, 2017
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April 20th, 2017 at 11:32:23 AM permalink
Thanks so much everyone for those detailed answers! I will do a test the next time I get out there.

It sucks because those pay tables are not ideal, and I think Jacks or Better was the Full Pay a month ago. Additionally the best payout is at $1 (max bet aka $5), the 25c and 50c have even worse around 96%!

..I was hoping to do quarters so a Royal would be under $1200. Which i know Racinos that leverage point is $600, but Senaca, Turning, and Del Lago is $1200 correct?
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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April 20th, 2017 at 11:47:36 AM permalink
Quote: JB

... If there is a "match card bonus" or a genie/fairy/wizard helps you out, then it is fake video poker.

Are you sure? I would think the genie only appears if there is no acceptable replacement in the deck. Like if you're dealt quads and toss one of them. Toss them all and you'll draw quads of a different rank.

Similarly, in your example where you break a pair of jacks, there are two other jacks that could be drawn.

Of course that's no proof because you could have been destined to get trips. But if this happens every time, it's not RNG...
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
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April 20th, 2017 at 12:20:50 PM permalink
With the Native American places, you can't really be so sure. Turning Stone always referred to the machines as multi-game machines, which I never really fully understood. Also playing some of their slots, I'd see notation something like "joining game XXXXX". Never really understood this. I haven't been there in a good 7 years fwiw.
Looks like sh!t just got imaginary!
CrystalMath
CrystalMath
Joined: May 10, 2011
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April 20th, 2017 at 12:22:39 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Are you sure? I would think the genie only appears if there is no acceptable replacement in the deck. Like if you're dealt quads and toss one of them. Toss them all and you'll draw quads of a different rank.

Similarly, in your example where you break a pair of jacks, there are two other jacks that could be drawn.

Of course that's no proof because you could have been destined to get trips. But if this happens every time, it's not RNG...



This is correct. In my experience with the IGT machines, the fairy only helps if it cannot deal the intended winning hand.

There is surely something in the help screens that would tell you you're playing fake VP. It would be interesting to see them.
I heart Crystal Math.
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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April 20th, 2017 at 12:28:04 PM permalink
It's fun to throw away a set of quads. Make sure your neighbors are watching.
It's what you do and not what you say If you're not part of the future then get out of the way

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